AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

[OneLostGrl]

Cold, calculating, very frightening indeed. I have heard no statement of remorse, which is equally frightening. Definitely, this boy needs evaluation. The question is will 10 years in a juvenile facility be enough?

IMO because of public outcry and possible court action (cruel and unusual punishment), he'll be placed in a juvenile facility, then released in 10 years. JD, with around a 50% recidivism, is not a cure-all. A big quesion is what will happen then?

To compare (2005 statistics):

http://www.courttv.com/people/bloom_blog/102505_juveniles_ctv.html?link=eaf

Number of prisoners currently serving life without parole for juvenile crimes in the United States: 2,225

Number of prisoners currently serving life without parole for juvenile crimes in the entire rest of the world: 12

Sadly with this kind of behavior so young and then being sent to a juvenile facility, that boy will only become more skilled and better able to harm others while locked up. His life in Juvi will not be an easy one and he is going to have to defend himself starting from a young age. I wouldn't wanna mess with the man that he will be when he is let out!

 

[impatientredhead]

You are totally missing the point. This is not a 2nd amendment or hunting debate. This is not about you or your weapons or your beloved pets. It doesn't matter that the prairie dog was legal to shoot.

This debate is about allowing a child who is not old enough to drive or even attend middle school own and operate a 22 gauge shot gun and kill small animals with that weapon. And to have said weapon unsecured in the house.

Society's right to be protected from armed and dangerous 8-year-olds outweighs the right to hunt. The gun turned an angry child over a simple punishment into a double murder.

If this child is truly homicidal he would have just picked a different route. There have been cases with children as young as 9 and 10 poisoning the food of family members. Those resulted in hospitalization and not death (at least in cases where they figured out what was going on).

The hunting issue I believe is being totally blown out of proportion. If the boy had been torturing animals previously and dad decided to get him a gun and teach him to hunt, that I would understand the claims of correlation. But comparing serial killers that torture animals, domestic and wild, for enjoyment to kids taught to hunt is just not a fair comparision.

And if every 8 year old boy that was taught to hunt, hell if 1 percent of them, turned into killers after making a kill in hunting..... well the population would be greatly reduced.

 

[OneLostGrl]

No matter what happens to <redacted>, he'll be counseled. How does someone go about counseling such a boy? Where does one begin?

His childhood of course.

 

[OneLostGrl]

You said game...I never said game....And since when are prairie dogs game?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoosadism

"the FBI has found that a history of cruelty to animals is one of the traits that regularly appears in its computer records of serial rapists and murderers, and the standard diagnostic and treatment manual for psychiatric and emotional disorders lists cruelty to animals as a diagnostic criterion for conduct disorders."

Notable zoosadists:
Jeffrey Dahmer
John Travers
Henry Lee Lucas
Brendan McMahon
Robert Garrow
Dennis Rader
Rostislav Bogoslevsky[9]
John Duffy and David Mulcahy[10]
Richard Chase[11]

As I was reading through this thread I have noticed your comments about giving this boy a gun and teaching him to kill and then expecting him, an 8 year old, to know the difference and have the ability to think things through before he acts. And this, the serial killer thing here... I just wanted to post and say that I am glad you have stood your ground with this, I was so hoping you would and you done good!

LOL not that my encouragement is needed cause who the heck cares what I say but I just wanted you to know that you are not the only one who feels this way. :blowkiss:

 

[Trino]

You are totally missing the point. This is not a 2nd amendment or hunting debate. This is not about you or your weapons or your beloved pets. It doesn't matter that the prairie dog was legal to shoot.

This debate is about allowing a child who is not old enough to drive or even attend middle school own and operate a 22 gauge shot gun and kill small animals with that weapon. And to have said weapon unsecured in the house.

Society's right to be protected from armed and dangerous 8-year-olds outweighs the right to hunt. The gun turned an angry child over a simple punishment into a double murder.

I don't have a gun in my home. I never taught my sons to shoot. BUT, it's still the old saying that guns don't kill, people do. The father did nothing illegal. My guess is there may be more than one parent in St. Johns that is taking a rifle away from their 8 yr old.

Society's right to be protected varies according to state laws. Check out gun laws by state (scroll down for map). Not all states require guns to be locked. Some states have no age requirement.

http://www.stategunlaws.org/

 

[twinkiesmom]

And if every 8 year old boy that was taught to hunt, hell if 1 percent of them, turned into killers after making a kill in hunting..... well the population would be greatly reduced.

So your solution is rather than take the guns away from the small kids, just nominate Vince for the Darwin Awards and write him off as statistic?

No one here is complaining about dads taking 12 year olds out hunting....simply suggest starting the little ones out with BB guns (under close supervision, locked up when not in use) and let them shoot paper targets while they're young and their minds are still being formed. An 8-year-old is a baby.

 

[twinkiesmom]

BUT, it's still the old saying that guns don't kill, people do.

That's a load of BS put out by the gun manufacturers....the only other weapon this kid had access to was a kitchen knife, and I doubt he'd be able to take down two grown men with it.

The father did nothing illegal.

All states have reckless endangerment and negligence laws.

 

[impatientredhead]

So your solution is rather than take the guns away from the small kids, just nominate Vince for the Darwin Awards and write him off as statistic?

No one here is complaining about dads taking 12 year olds out hunting....simply suggest starting the little ones out with BB guns (under close supervision, locked up when not in use) and let them shoot paper targets while they're young and their minds are still being formed. An 8-year-old is a baby.

No, my point was if this boy is a homicidal maniac he would be a homicidal maniac with or without a hunting lesson. You are making an arguement that if he hadn't been taught to hunt these two men would be alive. I disagree.

It is a comfortable arguement because you (general you) can say this wouldn't happen to me because I wouldn't teach my kid to hunt, and if I did it would be a bb gun, and if I did the gun would be locked up, so therefore nothing of this type of tragedy could befall my family.

Something is horribly wrong in this situation but it is not as simple as a hunting lesson. That was my point.

 

[twinkiesmom]

No, my point was if this boy is a homicidal maniac he would be a homicidal maniac with or without a hunting lesson. You are making an arguement that if he hadn't been taught to hunt these two men would be alive. I disagree.

This child did not have a discipline record of any kind. There is no evidence he was a homicidal maniac. He sat calmly in court swinging his legs and asking his mom to put kisses in his pocket.

The gun was the difference between a bad day and a double murder.

If you prefer to go after the video games rather than the guns, I'm cool with that too.

 

[wildTrose]

Other child killers who killed at a young age..Mary bell , Robert Thompson and Jon Venables they all served their sentences and were released and given new identities...I havnt done a indepth search but to my knowledge these three have not committed any more killings...Mary Bell even has a daughter now!
While I do not in any way condone what this child did..Im still wondering what made him do it! and thinking of these other three makes me realize that he is a child with a childs mind and eventually he will be able to turn his life around as it seems these other three child murderers did.

 

[southcitymom]

You couldn't be more wrong

i agree. people who have never lived where killing vermin or hunting for food, or raising animals to kill for food is normal part of life, cannot wrap their heads around this. i understand, my hubby is a city boy, and he was appalled by my gun use. he got used to it.

i also know that there ARE bad children, for no real reason but something not connected in their head, i guess. i dont know enough about this boy to even guess the why of it, but blaming his daddy because he taught the child to use a gun is wrong.

imo, IF the bio mom is telling the truth about him playing video games too much, that is more likely to cause him to lose the sense that shooting is KILLING.

I agree with both of these posts.

 

[southcitymom]

Is your lack of empathy for this boy based on personal experiences with your 11 year old adopted child that you had posted about in "up to the minute" news?

Every case is different. This boy has not been in any of the systems until now.

I'm just not seeing any lack of empathy for the child in Linda's post....:waitasec:

 

[southcitymom]

It's a little fascinating to me that this has turned, in part, into a guns are bad thread, but possibly I am being naive. Still - I don't think access to a gun turns a bad day into a killing humans day for most people.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Many serial killers have started out killing small animals as children. Why would a caring parent put their child's psyche in harms way by encouraging this behavior?

Not killing ............torturing.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Is your lack of empathy for this boy based on personal experiences with your 11 year old adopted child that you had posted about in "up to the minute" news?

Every case is different. This boy has not been in any of the systems until now.

Perhaps, in that I am fully aware that there are evil psychopathic children capable of murdering. Children that can not be fixed. I also know from personal experience they can present like any other normal, charming, intelligent, caring and kind child. It's a facade, they learn to MIMIC normal emotions. Inside is dark, twisted and ugly. Some are made and some are born.

However, with the 11 yr old.........i could understand why he was the way he was. There was a long history of abuse & neglect and of his being a perpetrator. So you're really trying to compare apples to oranges.

IF this child is a psychopath, it's not difficult to understand why there were no reg flags. He had a fantastic father, that was able to model appropriate behavior and kept him seemingly normal for as long as he did.

Serial killers all start sometime. Around age 10 they all seem to begin to blossom.....maybe this one is a little ahead of the pack

 

[Linda7NJ]

If this child is truly homicidal he would have just picked a different route. There have been cases with children as young as 9 and 10 poisoning the food of family members. Those resulted in hospitalization and not death (at least in cases where they figured out what was going on).

The hunting issue I believe is being totally blown out of proportion. If the boy had been torturing animals previously and dad decided to get him a gun and teach him to hunt, that I would understand the claims of correlation. But comparing serial killers that torture animals, domestic and wild, for enjoyment to kids taught to hunt is just not a fair comparison.

And if every 8 year old boy that was taught to hunt, hell if 1 percent of them, turned into killers after making a kill in hunting..... well the population would be greatly reduced.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

I am not a hunter, have never hunted. But I was raised with a family of hunters and lots of guns. I was taught how to use a gun at age 7 and routinely went target shooting. I fired a 22 when I was about 9. I was taught to have great respect for guns in the process. I am certain this father did the same.

Guns weren't locked up and I had access to them. They were kept loaded. If the need ever arose that I needed to defend myself when home alone I was taught where to go in the house and what to do.

Oh and hunters care & have empathy. It's important to hunters not to let the animal suffer. This child did exactly that, ensured they were both dead. He knew what dead was.........and he used what he was taught to make sure he killed them dead.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Other child killers who killed at a young age..Mary bell , Robert Thompson and Jon Venables they all served their sentences and were released and given new identities...I havnt done a indepth search but to my knowledge these three have not committed any more killings...Mary Bell even has a daughter now!
While I do not in any way condone what this child did..Im still wondering what made him do it! and thinking of these other three makes me realize that he is a child with a childs mind and eventually he will be able to turn his life around as it seems these other three child murderers did.

They all could very well be psychopaths...they all don't murder. In fact, most never do.

Females are rarely serial killers.

 

[Linda7NJ]

No one has discussed the fact that he stayed with the bodies for 30 minutes.

What was he doing?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm just not seeing any lack of empathy for the child in Linda's post....:waitasec:

Me either...I went back and read them all too! I think it was a oke:

 

[impatientredhead]

This child did not have a discipline record of any kind. There is no evidence he was a homicidal maniac. He sat calmly in court swinging his legs and asking his mom to put kisses in his pocket.

The gun was the difference between a bad day and a double murder.

If you prefer to go after the video games rather than the guns, I'm cool with that too.

We will probably just have to agree to disagree, because I think anyone that is just a weapon and a bad day away from a double homicide is going to kill someone anyway. A knife is a weapon, a baseball bat can become one, your house is filled with things that could be the item used on this "bad day".

And as you can probably guess, I don't agree about video games either. I am of the belief that if your child is an afternoon with video games away from shooting up the school or family residence there are issues in need of much more urgent attention then the gaming industry in your home.