AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #2

[SoobsinMI]

I don't see anything wrong with a child getting 5 swats especially if the problem had been an ongoing problem about the same subject. We have heard nothing about his getting a beating or getting beaten all of the time...not even from the boy.

Unless you believe reports that he kept a record of his "swats" and said that when the count reached 1000, that would be the end. Over eight years (probably too long, unless he can remember being hit as an infant) that works out to be 125 "swats" a year. Doesn't anyone think that is excessive?

I wonder where the story about the boy keeping count of the spankings came from. Maybe the boy mentioned something about it to someone. I don't think any paper like that was found during search warrents.

He is quoted as having told CPS that he created the journal, and in the request for a search warrant, Det. Rodriguez stated

In an affidavit for a search warrant, Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez writes that the boy "is believed to have made ledgers and or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions," saying the boy tallied the spankings on a piece of paper.

 

[Shelby77]

Well it certainly appears to be more likely than not that corporal punishment and CPS were both directly involved in this boys life Before the murders. I wonder if the boy told his caseworker that 1000 was his limit before the murders....

The search-warrant records contain the first public disclosure that the boy was in contact with CPS workers and may have endured regular corporal punishment. The records do not mention a diary of spankings.

from http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/11/27/20081127stjohns1127.html

If only we weren't locked out of the records website now

 

[SoobsinMI]

If only we weren't locked out of the records website now

Court records are available online at this link: http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

 

[mostlylurking]

Unless you believe reports that he kept a record of his "swats" and said that when the count reached 1000, that would be the end. Over eight years (probably too long, unless he can remember being hit as an infant) that works out to be 125 "swats" a year. Doesn't anyone think that is excessive?

YES!!! If it started since the age of 5, that would be a spanking every day. I don't believe he was counting swats (hits) in a spanking, but how many spankings.

 

[twinkiesmom]

According to the grandparents dad was to hard on the little boy and that is why they think he did what he did. Often grandparents think parents are to hard on the grandkids. That isn't unusual I don't think. It doesn't mean that the parents were actually to hard though..

Except most grandparents who stick up for their grandchildren don't have a dead son as a result of the grandchild's crime. I find the grandparent statements particularly compelling because they have dual loyalties here.

I don't see anything wrong with a child getting 5 swats especially if the problem had been an ongoing problem about the same subject. We have heard nothing about his getting a beating or getting beaten all of the time...not even from the boy.

You don't discipline a kid for age appropriate behaviour. Five swats is abusive for forgetting an assignment. It sounds like this kid was having trouble in school and was forgetting assignments to avoid the humiliation of not being able to do the work. And who was home in the afternoon to help him?

The majority of kids who are really abused in some way show it at school. They show it in their behavior or they withdraw from everyone. That is one way teachers can tell if something is wrong. Nothing has been reported about this boy having behavioral problems at school or being withdrawn. It seems he was just a normal boy who had friends and was involved in sports, etc like the other little boys.

No Way. If you're abused at home, you try like the devil to maintain a perfect demeanor at school...any bad report from school will result in more abuse. It's the rare report that teachers knew the kid was being abused from the kid's behavior...more often, the teachers suspect abuse because of profound neglect (lice, malnourishment, lack of bathing, etc)....which would not be the type of abuse in this case.

 

[Trino]

You don't discipline a kid for age appropriate behaviour. Five swats is abusive for forgetting an assignment. It sounds like this kid was having trouble in school and was forgetting assignments to avoid the humiliation of not being able to do the work. And who was home in the afternoon to help him?

No Way. If you're abused at home, you try like the devil to maintain a perfect demeanor at school...any bad report from school will result in more abuse. It's the rare report that teachers knew the kid was being abused from the kid's behavior...more often, the teachers suspect abuse because of profound neglect (lice, malnourishment, lack of bathing, etc)....which would not be the type of abuse in this case.

The father got home each day around 4:00. There WERE people at home to help the boy.

As a former teacher, I can tell you that teachers are definitely told to look for physical signs of abuse as number one. They are not told to look for lice, malnourishment, etc. That is the nurse's job. The boy had no signs of physical abuse, and no legal authority has suggested he was abused. We don't know that the 1000 swats is a fact.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Check out the first video on the site: Back in Custody. The inference is that the boy may have shot his father, shot Romans, then went back and shot his father again. Chilling.

Thanks, I will look at it.

This is what I have been thinking about this morning.

Remember the boy said that when he discovered his father, his face was already COVERED in BLOOD and his father was quivering so he shot him twice to end his suffering? Romero received TWO shots to the head. Therefore he had already been shot in the head which left his face all bloody. Once again he easily lies. It is just uncanny to me how easily he can just create these stories at will.

In his interview he wasn't intimidated at all. He felt he was the master and they were trying to follow his lead. Because he felt such confidence his lies became even more outlandish and that turned out to be his downfall.

THIS IS NO NORMAL or typical 8 year old child. Not by a long shot imo. A child that was able to store internal rage has a lot of issues imo.

imoo

 

[Trino]

Thanks, I will look at it.

This is what I have been thinking about this morning.

Remember the boy said that when he discovered his father, his face was already COVERED in BLOOD and his father was quivering so he shot him twice to end his suffering? Romero received TWO shots to the head. Therefore he had already been shot in the head which left his face all bloody. Once again he easily lies. It is just uncanny to me how easily he can just create these stories at will.

In his interview he wasn't intimidated at all. He felt he was the master and they were trying to follow his lead. Because he felt such confidence his lies became even more outlandish and that turned out to be his downfall.

THIS IS NO NORMAL or typical 8 year old child. Not by a long shot imo. A child that was able to store internal rage ever since he was 5 years old has a lot of issues imo.imoo

I believe everyone is struggling about what to do with this boy. IMO there's no way he should be let off the hook because he's 8 yrs old. He's going to need to be confined for killing two people, and my guess is that it will be in juvenile detention. IMO he should be there until he's 18.

Did you read/hear his nonchalant comment about his dad's cell phone to deputies? With this personality, can he grasp the cold-blooded, premeditated severity of what he's done and be rehabilitated enough to integrate back into society? The boy gave no indication to anyone of his plan. Quite frankly, the boy's ability to lie and make up new stories is scarey.

 

[Linda7NJ]

You don't discipline a kid for age appropriate behaviour. Five swats is abusive for forgetting an assignment. It sounds like this kid was having trouble in school and was forgetting assignments to avoid the humiliation of not being able to do the work. And who was home in the afternoon to help him?

I totally disagree

I disciplined mine when he was 8 for purposefully not bring home homework assignments, lying and saying he didn't have any homework. Age appropriate behavior? Absolutely. That doesn't mean we excuse it. I didn't spank mine for it, but he was punished. And ya know what? It stopped.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The father got home each day around 4:00. There WERE people at home to help the boy.

As a former teacher, I can tell you that teachers are definitely told to look for physical signs of abuse as number one. They are not told to look for lice, malnourishment, etc. That is the nurse's job. The boy had no signs of physical abuse, and no legal authority has suggested he was abused. We don't know that the 1000 swats is a fact.

Agree!

I think the 1000 swat journal, if it exists, is total BS fabricated by this kid.

 

[twinkiesmom]

The father got home each day around 4:00. There WERE people at home to help the boy.

As a former teacher, I can tell you that teachers are definitely told to look for physical signs of abuse as number one. They are not told to look for lice, malnourishment, etc. That is the nurse's job. The boy had no signs of physical abuse, and no legal authority has suggested he was abused. We don't know that the 1000 swats is a fact.

I never said the teachers performed lice inspections. But the teachers do talk to the nurses, and they know when kids are hungry, look dirty and disheveled and have repeated rounds of lice. It's not like abused kids routinely show up at school with external bruises; the abusers know to hide them under clothing. And yes, I was a teacher too.

It does appear that CPS knew he had complained about the numerous swats, so yes, a legal authority did have evidence of abuse. It may not be 1000, but 100 would be too many IMO.

This is a kid who had no behavior issues at school, why so much force at home? I put my kids in time out, and they'd cry at that age. I don't have a problem with spanking per se, but I can count the number of times it was necessary between two kids that passed through this age group on one hand.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Thanks, I will look at it.

This is what I have been thinking about this morning.

Remember the boy said that when he discovered his father, his face was already COVERED in BLOOD and his father was quivering so he shot him twice to end his suffering? Romero received TWO shots to the head. Therefore he had already been shot in the head which left his face all bloody. Once again he easily lies. It is just uncanny to me how easily he can just create these stories at will.

In his interview he wasn't intimidated at all. He felt he was the master and they were trying to follow his lead. Because he felt such confidence his lies became even more outlandish and that turned out to be his downfall.

THIS IS NO NORMAL or typical 8 year old child. Not by a long shot imo. A child that was able to store internal rage has a lot of issues imo.

imoo

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Trino]

It does appear that CPS knew he had complained about the numerous swats, so yes, a legal authority did have evidence of abuse. It may not be 1000, but 100 would be too many IMO.

CPS did not "know" anything before the incident. He then told CPS about the 1000.

 

[Bobbisangel]

CPS did not "know" anything before the incident. He then told CPS about the 1000.

He probably did tell CPS about keeping track of his spankings but I would bet that the 1,000 was just off the top of his head and that he didn't keep track in writing but just told CPS that. I think that when he told them that he had gotten a spanking...5 swats...the night before they probably asked him if he got spanked very often and then he came up with the 1,000 swats and keeping track of his spankings on a piece of paper which was never found in the search warrents.

He may have gotten to many spankings but right now we don't know that for a fact. We don't really know anything about his home life except what his grandparents have said and what he said about the one spanking.

As far as we know the grandparents might not have even been talking about spankings. They may have just thought the dad was overly strict in other ways that the boy might have resented or that they thought was wrong.

I believe in discipline. It doesn't have to be a spanking it can be restriction...taking away privileges or whatever and even a spanking if it is really needed. If you let a child get away with things when they are small then when they are about 12 or 13 and you are unable to manage them you have no one to blame but yourself. I see it all of the time. I have a 9 yr old granddaughter who is never corrected or if she is disciplined she is sent to her room with her TV, phone, etc. This kid is a holy terror and it is only going to get worse. Glad her mom will have to deal with her as she gets older! My family and I dread family get togethers because of this child.

 

[SoobsinMI]

Agree!

I think the 1000 swat journal, if it exists, is total BS fabricated by this kid.

I don't know whether the journal is real or not. I suppose we'll see it as evidence, if in fact, there is one. What concerns me, however, is that if there IS a journal, and there ARE tallies of spankings...this either means he WAS hit this much OR that he premeditated lying and faking the journal for a year or however long.

Either the journal exists and we have to look at the motivation behind it, or it doesn't exist, and CPS and LE lied when they got the warrant.

 

[Trino]

I've heard those defending this boy say he's just a baby (hogwash), and while I don't want to see him spend the rest of his life in prison, the facts seem to be that he premeditated the murder of two people w/o remorse. IMO the boy has mental problems. I'm not a mental health expert, but I cannot help but wonder what it would take to heal him if that's possible. Any professionals out there?

 

[PattyCake]

http://www.kpho.com/news/18170747/detail.html

prosectors seek deal to resolve BOTH murders. Wonder what's going on behind the scenes.

 

[chicagofa13]

I've heard those defending this boy say he's just a baby (hogwash), and while I don't want to see him spend the rest of his life in prison, the facts seem to be that he premeditated the murder of two people w/o remorse. IMO the boy has mental problems. I'm not a mental health expert, but I cannot help but wonder what it would take to heal him if that's possible. Any professionals out there?

Agree with you. Mike Galanos had a Forensic Psychologist on CNNHN today (might have been a rerun?) but I tuned in too late and missed all but a minute of it.

The mother possibly planting this idea is the ONLY thing that has given me any sympathy for this kid. I've been trying to find it elsewhere, but I can't. The mom being involved gives me hope he's not a complete psycho. He could be a future Bundy, Dahmer, Gacy... I'm sure someone at sometime thought they were "babies" and "so innocent". Didn't turn out so well.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.kpho.com/news/18170747/detail.html

prosecutors seek deal to resolve BOTH murders. Wonder what's going on behind the scenes.

I read closely what was said.

But Apache County Attorney Chriss Candelaria writes that he has "tendered a plea offer to the juvenile's attorneys that would resolve all the charges in the juvenile court contingent on the results of the mental health evaluations."

What he is saying imo is he will withdraw all charges from the juvenile court if the boy's age is a factor now if the Judge rules he is incompetent age wise to assist in his defense. It will all be based on his mental evaluation.

If you read the DAs actual motion he is very clear when stating there must be justice for the two victims.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/doc...REPLY IN SUPPORT OF ITS MOTION TO DISMISS.pdf

JMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Well it certainly appears to be more likely than not that corporal punishment and CPS were both directly involved in this boys life Before the murders. I wonder if the boy told his caseworker that 1000 was his limit before the murders....

The search-warrant records contain the first public disclosure that the boy was in contact with CPS workers and may have endured regular corporal punishment. The records do not mention a diary of spankings.

from http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/11/27/20081127stjohns1127.html

If only we weren't locked out of the records website now

Corporal punishment is legal in AZ. http://school.familyeducation.com/classroom-discipline/resource/38377.html

I believe he told the CPS caseworker this story once they became involved a day or two after he was arrested.

A district attorney can asks for these records if they pertain to an ongoing criminal case. When they were told the information they then obtained another search warrant to look for any records or documentation he may have left in the home.

imoo