AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[azmama]

You mean the threat to kill his father to his face and then later telling someone else that he was going to kill his dad or that a witness saw him try to drown his half sister? etc.

All those things have been disclosed by the two media sites that have the DPS investigation transcripts and police reports.

The links have already been placed here and will be above this post.
imo

Uh, no, that was not the question I asked you, but that is fine, thank you anyway, I will search them out myself.
I don't understand why you are so hostile about this, I was simply asking directly about some things you said you read on another site. I will refrain from asking you for direction in the future.....

 

[Razzle]

So, let me get this straight. Bloody clothes were found, by family friends helping clean the house, in the trash where they threw them out. From a house the was released by St. John's LE ***after they finished inspecting the home and took evidence*** concerning these murders. Okay, so who are these family friends and how is it they found bloody clothing in a home that LE had been through???? Please do not tell me LE made a "booboo"! This was a crime scene!!! Yet another "professional" mess up. There is absolutely no excuse for this. Absolutely none and if anything helps point out other possible reasons those clothes were found AFTER St. John's LE was there. I'd be one pissed off DA.

I still would like to understand why, if 1 (just 1) former teacher describes this child as smart, but manipulative, no one else has. Also, if this child has such anger issues (word threats to father at a family gathering), why the heck were there loose guns and ammunition within this home??? Why did Romero even give a gun to his son????

As far as spankings go, I do not care how frustrated you are as a parent, you never resort to physical punishment. Never. If this child was having such "issues" of major concern, why did they not seek professional help for this child, even from his peditrician as a start?

As Fran has stated many times, the questions keeping growing vs having sure answers in this case. I repeat myself, yet again. There is so much more to this case.....

Exactly

(bolding mine)

 

[MeoW333]

The crime scene was released within 24 hours, and i have a problem with that. Due to that, the defense couldn't even get a look at the crime scene. It seems awfully early to release a crime scene where a double homicide happened..

 

[fran]

Interesting the majority of this article is about this child. Frankly, I think the last paragraph or two is the most informative.

Interesting,
fran


http://www.abc15.com/content/news/n...ed-new-info-about/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx

St. Johns murder reports released; new info. about boy

<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A supplement filed by Sgt. Jennifer Pinnow and Lt. Bruce Campbell stated Pinnow had received a telephone call from DPS Detective Michell Vasey from the Gang and Immigration Intelligence Teame Enforcement Mission.

"Vasey stated she contacted the SCTPD who said Tim Romans had been arrested and was known to be a mid-level drug dealer. He had several people who dealt methamphetamine for him at the street level. One of those people...stated a week prior to the shooting Tim called her saying someone wanted to kill him."

 

[MeoW333]

Interesting the majority of this article is about this child. Frankly, I think the last paragraph or two is the most informative.

Interesting,
fran


http://www.abc15.com/content/news/n...ed-new-info-about/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx

St. Johns murder reports released; new info. about boy

<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A supplement filed by Sgt. Jennifer Pinnow and Lt. Bruce Campbell stated Pinnow had received a telephone call from DPS Detective Michell Vasey from the Gang and Immigration Intelligence Teame Enforcement Mission.

"Vasey stated she contacted the SCTPD who said Tim Romans had been arrested and was known to be a mid-level drug dealer. He had several people who dealt methamphetamine for him at the street level. One of those people...stated a week prior to the shooting Tim called her saying someone wanted to kill him."

Wow, Fran, thank you for this link, it is by far the best! Now we have that confirmed about Tim for those who were doubtful.

We also have the bio mother's estranged husband who says the boy was a good kid, yet conflicting reports from Vincent's side saying the boy would tell his dad he:

"According to the report, "[The uncle] overheard [the boy] say, 'One day I'm going to kill him.' [The uncle] told Vincent [Romero] what [the boy] said, and Vincent responded by slapping [the boy]. The date of the incident remained undetermined."

and

"In a separate supplement filed by Det. James Anderson and Sgt. M. Livingston, an interview with a "very close" cousin revealed "during a game of horse shoes at his family reunion on August 2, 2008, [the cousin] heard [the boy] tell his dad 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'll kill you dad.' [The cousin] stated he said it in anger. He said after [the boy] said it he ran off. [The cousin] said Vince told [the boy], 'How dare you say that.' [The cousin] did not recall anything that happned after that. [The cousin] stated that was the only time he had ever seen [the boy] act like that."
(from Fran's link)
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/n...ed-new-info-about/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx

I wonder if the "very close" cousin is also a son of the uncle that overheard the boy say these things. If he did say them, i think that points to the fact that the boy was in an abusive situation at home. For a child to say such things, they'd have to be very wronged by a parent.
Then bio mom's estranged husband never heard such things from the boy and said he was very good with no tantrums. In a different environment, the boy is stable not acting out.

"Later in the supplemental report detectives learned, "the two cell phones belonging to Vincent Reomero and Timothy Romans contained photographs, which had been accessed by DPS Computer Forensics Unit (CFU) personnel... Vincent's telephone contained a photograph of a young boy, displaying what appeared to be a black eye." However, according to the reports, the identity of the young boy remained unclear."

Why did Vincent's phone have a photo of a young boy with a black eye? Is it the boy? Would he show the picture to his son as a threat?

As for Tim, i don't think he stopped selling drugs. Remember the evidence photos way back in the beginning? Wasn't money photographed as well?
Why photograph money unless the LE who did thought it was drug money or related to the crimes?

""Vasey stated she contacted the SCTPD who said Tim Romans had been arrested and was known to be a mid-level drug dealer. He had several people who dealt methamphetamine for him at the street level. One of those people...stated a week prior to the shooting Tim called her saying someone wanted to kill him."

LE botched this whole investigation. They should have jumped on the Tim the drug dealer angle from the start, instead of coercing an 8 year old into a confession that can't be used in court anyway.

One has to question Vincent's judgement of having a drug dealer living in his home. I'm sure he knew what Tim was doing, they were good friends enough, he even let Tim live in his house in a room down the hall from his boy's room.

 

[fran]

y/w Meow!

IMHO, this puts an entirely different spin on this case. Remember the Mexican nationals that had the disagreement with the two victims at the bar? LE was called to that. Perhaps it didn't necessarily have to do with them recruiting Tim to their gang as 'drug dealing.' Maybe they wanted Tim to work for THEM. Perhaps he was an independent?

You never know what can happen when you're involved in drugs. Whether a user or a dealer, drugs kill. This case may be {proof}.

When St. John's officers first received the call of a dead body, they thought it involved drugs. One way or another, they may very well be correct.

JMHO
fran

 

[mrrogers]

Exactly

(bolding mine)

when the az department of public safety got there to interview the wife
paint had been removed
carpet was missing from part of the stairs
good friend huh ?

 

[Razzle]

Interesting the majority of this article is about this child. Frankly, I think the last paragraph or two is the most informative.

Interesting,
fran


http://www.abc15.com/content/news/n...ed-new-info-about/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx

St. Johns murder reports released; new info. about boy

<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A supplement filed by Sgt. Jennifer Pinnow and Lt. Bruce Campbell stated Pinnow had received a telephone call from DPS Detective Michell Vasey from the Gang and Immigration Intelligence Teame Enforcement Mission.

"Vasey stated she contacted the SCTPD who said Tim Romans had been arrested and was known to be a mid-level drug dealer. He had several people who dealt methamphetamine for him at the street level. One of those people...stated a week prior to the shooting Tim called her saying someone wanted to kill him."

I KNEW it! There is so much more to this case than what we are hearing.

Who lets a drug dealer move into their home with their kid??? And why was the house such a pig sty? That goes along with meth use. I bet Vincent was into it as well. People that don't use meth generally don't pal around with people who do...that drug truly is a lifestyle.

My heart is just breaking for this boy.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

when the az department of public safety got there to interview the wife
paint had been removed
carpet was missing from part of the stairs
good friend huh ?

I would think all the carpet that was blood from Vincent's body laying there would be cut out and removed. It is very dangerous to leave biological material in carpet, where it can seep all the way through and into the plywood below to ferment. It can cause serious health hazards, if not ripped up and the under surface thoroughly cleaned. Once it is cleaned thoroughly and allowed to completely dry out, the carpet can be replaced.

Yes, a very good friend that would do that. It had to be a hard thing to do but it had to be done.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Wow, Fran, thank you for this link, it is by far the best! Now we have that confirmed about Tim for those who were doubtful.

We also have the bio mother's estranged husband who says the boy was a good kid, yet conflicting reports from Vincent's side saying the boy would tell his dad he:

"According to the report, "[The uncle] overheard [the boy] say, 'One day I'm going to kill him.' [The uncle] told Vincent [Romero] what [the boy] said, and Vincent responded by slapping [the boy]. The date of the incident remained undetermined."

and

"In a separate supplement filed by Det. James Anderson and Sgt. M. Livingston, an interview with a "very close" cousin revealed "during a game of horse shoes at his family reunion on August 2, 2008, [the cousin] heard [the boy] tell his dad 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'll kill you dad.' [The cousin] stated he said it in anger. He said after [the boy] said it he ran off. [The cousin] said Vince told [the boy], 'How dare you say that.' [The cousin] did not recall anything that happned after that. [The cousin] stated that was the only time he had ever seen [the boy] act like that."
(from Fran's link)
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/n...ed-new-info-about/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx

I wonder if the "very close" cousin is also a son of the uncle that overheard the boy say these things. If he did say them, i think that points to the fact that the boy was in an abusive situation at home. For a child to say such things, they'd have to be very wronged by a parent.
Then bio mom's estranged husband never heard such things from the boy and said he was very good with no tantrums. In a different environment, the boy is stable not acting out.

"Later in the supplemental report detectives learned, "the two cell phones belonging to Vincent Reomero and Timothy Romans contained photographs, which had been accessed by DPS Computer Forensics Unit (CFU) personnel... Vincent's telephone contained a photograph of a young boy, displaying what appeared to be a black eye." However, according to the reports, the identity of the young boy remained unclear."

Why did Vincent's phone have a photo of a young boy with a black eye? Is it the boy? Would he show the picture to his son as a threat?

As for Tim, i don't think he stopped selling drugs. Remember the evidence photos way back in the beginning? Wasn't money photographed as well?
Why photograph money unless the LE who did thought it was drug money or related to the crimes?

""Vasey stated she contacted the SCTPD who said Tim Romans had been arrested and was known to be a mid-level drug dealer. He had several people who dealt methamphetamine for him at the street level. One of those people...stated a week prior to the shooting Tim called her saying someone wanted to kill him."

LE botched this whole investigation. They should have jumped on the Tim the drug dealer angle from the start, instead of coercing an 8 year old into a confession that can't be used in court anyway.

One has to question Vincent's judgment of having a drug dealer living in his home. I'm sure he knew what Tim was doing, they were good friends enough, he even let Tim live in his house in a room down the hall from his boy's room.

I think the DPS investigators fully investigated this angle once the witness told them about it and they found no link to any drug dealers or drug users concerning the murder case.

I think the defense already knows that too imo.

imoo

 

[fran]

I think the DPS investigators fully investigated this angle once the witness told them about it and they found no link to any drug dealers or drug users concerning the murder case.

I think the defense already knows that too imo.

imoo

Do you have a link?

fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Do you have a link?

fran

Do I have a link to "I think" :waitasec:

Do you have a link that they didn't thoroughly investigate the drug dealer angle?

imoo

 

[fran]

Do I have a link to "I think" :waitasec:

Do you have a link that they didn't thoroughly investigate the drug dealer angle?

imoo

There is no link to they did NOT thoroughly investigate the drug dealer connection, just like there's no link to they did. Until there's answers about the drug connection, it's an open possibility as the motive for this crime.

As a matter of fact, it's much more believable that the murder was over drugs, than an 8 year old using a single bolt action rifle got the drop on two men and managed to get off 10 rounds without them getting to him. This crime is more indicitive to the shooter using an automatic. That would most likely be the automatic that's missing from the murder scene.

Like I said, drugs kill.

JMHO
fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

There is no link to they did NOT thoroughly investigate the drug dealer connection, just like there's no link to they did. Until there's answers about the drug connection, it's an open possibility as the motive for this crime.

As a matter of fact, it's much more believable that the murder was over drugs, than an 8 year old using a single bolt action rifle got the drop on two men and managed to get off 10 rounds without them getting to him. This crime is more indicitive to the shooter using an automatic. That would most likely be the automatic that's missing from the murder scene.

Like I said, drugs kill.

JMHO
fran

I respect your opinion, Fran, but I do not agree, that drug dealers or users would bring a little pea shooter to the scene to kill two men.

If an automatic weapon had been used then the shots would have been rapid fire with no hesitation or reason to wait between firings.

The shots heard by the neighbors is consistent with a single shot that would have a pop and then a delay.

imoo

 

[Trino]

I haven't posted in a while - vacation - although I've been lurking.

How many drug dealers go after a person at a house in a neighborhood in the middle of the day? Would a drug dealer shoot someone with a rifle? And, why would he/they shoot VR from inside the house when there was no evidence the house had been broken into? I haven't heard there were strange footprints/fingerprints inside the house or on the gun. Explanations expected if this is anyone's theory.

 

[fran]

The shots allegedly heard by the neighbor, very well could have been the head shots to each victim, done AFTER they were already lying down wounded. Those would have been the KILL shots. Walking from one victim to the other, one or two final shots each.

The neighbor only heard about 3 shots. There were a total of ten.

Obviously, a 22 rifle kills, case in point.

IMHO, it's much more likely this was a drug related killing rather than a double murder by a third grader, with a single bolt action gun. There's still an automatic rifle missing from the murder scene. The clip for that weapon holds 10 rounds, the EXACT number of wounds sustained by the two victims.

Tim was shot 1 1/2 times as much as Vince. IMHO, it's more likely Tim was the initial target and Vince was collateral damage.

It's in the police reports in the most recent news article. Someone had threatened to kill Tim. If you read the fellow employee interviews, Tim was upset about something at work but the person interviewed didn't know what.

We've read it in more than one place, Tim was involved with drugs. Whether people want to believe it or not, the Arizona LE knows he was. Just because he hadn't recently been arrested, that we know of, doesn't mean he wasn't being watched.

A drug connection should not be dismissed. There is 'no coincidence' when it comes to murder.

JMHO
fran

 

[fran]

I haven't posted in a while - vacation - although I've been lurking.

How many drug dealers go after a person at a house in a neighborhood in the middle of the day? Would a drug dealer shoot someone with a rifle? And, why would he/they shoot VR from inside the house when there was no evidence the house had been broken into? I haven't heard there were strange footprints/fingerprints inside the house or on the gun. Explanations expected if this is anyone's theory.

To be quite honest, I don't believe St. John's PD investigated thoroughly enough to have checked for footprints. It's already been revealed that they allegedly missed blood stained clothing of the child's, lying on the ground close to one of the victims, after two SW's. Those cleaning the residence found them and threw them away, then told LE and they were retrieved from the trash. Now they want us to believe that he was wearing them that day? :doh:

The boy mentioned that the back door was always locked. Did they leave the front door unlocked? Could Tim and Vince come home to find someone in their house? The first place an intruder goes is the master bedroom, that's usually where valuables and guns are kept. Guns were under the bed. A 22 automatic is missing from the home. LE showed an empty gun case and an owner's manual for a 22 Mossberg automatic. Gun is missing, that we know of, per police reports we've seen thus far.

Curious, IMHO, they've told us the boy's fingerprints were on the box of shells recovered from the scene, but NOTHING about fingerprints on the alleged murder weapon or spent shells.

No ballistic report...............I read they sent the stuff for ballistics to a second lab? why?

Still no confirmation the boy's gun is the murder weapon.

Just words from witnesses.........the paper plays up big the boy's alleged threats to his dad,............don't hear too much about Tim recently being accused of sexual assault or that Tim himself told someone, just within a week of his murder, that someone wanted to kill him.

I don't think we know the WHOLE story yet.

JMHO
fran

 

[Trino]

To be quite honest, I don't believe St. John's PD investigated thoroughly enough to have checked for footprints. It's already been revealed that they allegedly missed blood stained clothing of the child's, lying on the ground close to one of the victims, after two SW's. Those cleaning the residence found them and threw them away, then told LE and they were retrieved from the trash. Now they want us to believe that he was wearing them that day? :doh:

The boy mentioned that the back door was always locked. Did they leave the front door unlocked? Could Tim and Vince come home to find someone in their house? The first place an intruder goes is the master bedroom, that's usually where valuables and guns are kept. Guns were under the bed. A 22 automatic is missing from the home. LE showed an empty gun case and an owner's manual for a 22 Mossberg automatic. Gun is missing, that we know of, per police reports we've seen thus far.

Curious, IMHO, they've told us the boy's fingerprints were on the box of shells recovered from the scene, but NOTHING about fingerprints on the alleged murder weapon or spent shells.

No ballistic report...............I read they sent the stuff for ballistics to a second lab? why?

Still no confirmation the boy's gun is the murder weapon.

Just words from witnesses.........the paper plays up big the boy's alleged threats to his dad,............don't hear too much about Tim recently being accused of sexual assault or that Tim himself told someone, just within a week of his murder, that someone wanted to kill him.

I don't think we know the WHOLE story yet.JMHOfran

Not to say it's not done, but drug dealers just don't usually use another person's weapon, especially a rifle. Sure, VR could have left the door open. Anything is possible. Can we answer why Tim's wife heard the boy calling? Note that the boy has never given a physical description of anyone, so it's not logical that he was being held prisoner.

And, what about TR's body laying in plain sight by the door while the boy (unseen by anyone) was supposedly walking 10 times around the block? Anyone could have seen the body, including the boy as he walked by, but no one did.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I haven't posted in a while - vacation - although I've been lurking.

How many drug dealers go after a person at a house in a neighborhood in the middle of the day? Would a drug dealer shoot someone with a rifle? And, why would he/they shoot VR from inside the house when there was no evidence the house had been broken into? I haven't heard there were strange footprints/fingerprints inside the house or on the gun. Explanations expected if this is anyone's theory.

Very good point and all of this doesn't dismiss what else was learned. Such as the boy making threats to shoot and kill his father right to his face nor telling others he was going to kill his dad. He makes threats to shoot his dad more than once and surprisingly his father is shot dead by a .22, which the boy had a .22. I don't think any of those things are merely coincidences.

I no more think a drug dealer would come to that home in broad daylight and do this, than I believe there is a man in the moon. If they were gunning for Tim then they would know he hung around the bar every night until 1:30 am in the morning. Perfect opportunity to waylay him and kill him before he ever made it home.

And I sure don't think a drug dealer would use a pea shooter on two adult men. They would have their own weapon and it wouldn't be a small. 22 either imo.

imoo

 

[fran]

Not to say it's not done, but drug dealers just don't usually use another person's weapon, especially a rifle. Sure, VR could have left the door open. Anything is possible. Can we answer why Tim's wife heard the boy calling? Note that the boy has never given a physical description of anyone, so it's not logical that he was being held prisoner.

And, what about TR's body laying in plain sight by the door while the boy (unseen by anyone) was supposedly walking 10 times around the block? Anyone could have seen the body, including the boy as he walked by, but no one did.

It is VERY common for drug addicts to support their habit by stealing.
It's also very common for drug addicts to try to rip-off their family, their friends, other addicts, their dealers.

There is NO HONOR among drug addicts. OR, most likely people who deal drugs either, for that matter.

This COULD have been as simple as a drug addict trying to rip off drugs from a known dealer. He may not have found the drugs, but he MAY have found a gun loaded with a clip. Do you think if he was trying to get away and Tim and Vince came home he would try to get away any way he could? Like shoot whoever was there?

When the boy saw Tim's truck in front of their house, he did start for home and called out for Tim. When he was about two doors down, he saw Tim.

When the child told the officers he saw someone going into the house, they didn't ask him for a description. That would be the fault of LE, IMHO. They didn't give him a chance. They were too intent on getting him to confess.

FWIW, the boy was walking around the neighborhood, but he wasn't even on their street when Tim and Vince drove by. That's why when he saw the white car speed away from the house, he only saw the back end. From what I could gather, it was around or going around a corner.

I personally believe the drug connection is too important to disregard. Previously we were told Tim's connection to drugs were ten years prior. However, when St. John's PD talked to the reservation LE, they indicated Tim IS a drug dealer. Now we hear it again, that he's a 'low level dealer.'

Like I said, drugs kill. You don't even have to be a user or dealer, just in the vicinity and you can become collateral damage.

I want to know more about this possible link. Wouldn't you?

JMHO
fran