AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[Salem]

Is it logical to believe everything that is said about the two murder victims but disbelieve everything that is said about the boy?

Hi Bobbisangel - maybe you didn't catch the part in my post where I said I don't necessarily believe everything said about the victims NOR do I believe everything said about the child.

The media is the media. After following the MMcCann and Anthony cases, I have found it prudent to reserve judgment on media "disclosures" until such disclosures are substantiated by additional sources.

However, I will admit, Tim is looking more and more squirrelly to me.... infidelity, drug dealing and *advertiser censored* on his phone. So far only the drug dealing appears to be backed up by LE. I'm not sure what to think of the infidelity - given that some woman said he was going to divorce his wife and marry her and she posted such on her myspace. I suppose she could be lying for her 15 minutes.. I don't know. I did think it was in very poor taste. Not sure where the *advertiser censored* info originated from, I think the media. It was not repeated in the article about VR's phone with the picture of the boy with the black eye, so again, I'm not sure what to think.

TR was apparently a drug dealer and dealt with meth though, according to the article and the author claimed to have access to actual witness reports. I do know I wouldn't trust a meth user or a meth dealer and just this one fact would raise my hinky meter to red alert levels

Salem

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/109706.php


The documents, which outline interviews done by state Department of Public Safety officials, provide few details of the talks with neighbors, classmates, relatives and friends of the boy and his family.

Many of the people interviewed said they were surprised to learn the boy, who they described as typical, very respectful, smart and polite, was accused of the crimes. Neighbors and some of the boy's relatives said they never saw him display any violent or odd behavior

Others said the boy was aggressive at times, arrogant, manipulative and a "bully" but that he wasn't temperamental. At least two relatives told investigators the boy had threatened his father. One of Romero's cousins, Justin Romero, said he "did not put it beyond" the boy that he could have committed the crimes, given his ability to handle a gun.

Stevie Romero, another of Romero's cousins, said that during a family reunion in August, the boy had threatened to either shoot or kill his dad, but that the statement was made out of anger, according to documents.

"How dare you say that?" the cousin quoted Vincent Romero as saying as the boy ran off.

Stevie Romero said he never had seen the boy act that way before.

One of Romero's uncles told investigators he also heard the boy make threatening remarks about his father. Paul Romero said he overheard the boy during a recent hunting trip say, "One day I'm going to kill him."

Paul Romero said his nephew was upset with the boy for an unknown reason and responded by slapping him. The documents don't say when the hunting trip took place.

Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer said Monday that he hasn't had a chance to interview the relatives, but any physical evidence would be more telling than statements from people whose credibility hasn't been determined.

"None of these people came forward before this event and said anything. It was always after the fact," Brewer said. "I think the majority of people have picked their side. They could very easily tend to remember facts or embellish statements that may not be as powerful as they seem."

Prosecutor Brad Carlyon declined to comment on the documents, citing a gag order that largely prohibits the attorneys from discussing the case.

The next hearing in the case is scheduled for Thursday. Apache County Superior Court Judge Michael Roca is expected to consider a motion by prosecutors to drop one of the murder charges against the boy.

Bolding by me.

 

[SoobsinMI]

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/109706.php

Stevie Romero, another of Romero's cousins, said that during a family reunion in August, the boy had threatened to either shoot or kill his dad, but that the statement was made out of anger, according to documents.

Every time I read this, it tweaks my interest. If you overheard something, wouldn't you know exactly, verbatim, what was said? Why does the quote always become "either shoot or kill??" Either he said shoot, or he said kill. And if one is relaying the information to police, about what they heard, they'd know which it was. JMO.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Every time I read this, it tweaks my interest. If you overheard something, wouldn't you know exactly, verbatim, what was said? Why does the quote always become "either shoot or kill??" Either he said shoot, or he said kill. And if one is relaying the information to police, about what they heard, they'd know which it was. JMO.

I don't really know Soobs. I think it was the right thing for the witness to do. If he could not remember exactly if the boy said "shoot or kill" then he had a duty to tell LE that imo.

Sometimes after months have passed it may hard to remember the exact words that were said.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Sadly, nearly every place is a hotbed of meth activity these days; cities, small towns, suburbs, rural areas....no place is immune. Murders like this happen every day and we never do and never will hear about most of them. Based on the cases we do hear about, why is it so difficult to believe it could happen in broad daylight? Why is it so difficult to believe that that the killer(s) could have purposely framed this little boy? Framed him and frightened him enough to say that he did it?

I don't disbelieve anything negative that is said about the boy. However, there definitely were extenuating circumstances involving the victims here and every single aspect should be examined. Sweeping generalizations should not be applied - for the boy or Vincent or Tim.

And BTW - we HAVE NO IDEA about the forensic evidence yet. Please let's not assume anything with regard to GSR or blood splatter. Jumping to conclusions is exactly what has this case in a compromising situation.

You are right. This certainly isn't just Arizona's meth problem. It spans into every state in the union.

However I am not sure if murders happened that often. I have googled and found articles that meth does increase crime but that is usually to do with break ins to steal in order to have money to supply their drug addition. I also noted that many children of meth users wind up in foster care and it is one of the causes of domestic violence in their homes. And I did read that in Arizona because of meth addition being prevalent it has a very high rate of identity fraud. There again committing fraud in order to have money to feed their habit.

But I really didn't find anything that it is common for meth users to commit murder. Maybe someone else can do a better search and can come up with murder also being a common crime done among this group.

I know when I read about it in my state it seems if a drug dealer dies it is in a shootout with police.
imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

This link discusses meth use by state.

http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k6/statemeth/stateMeth.htm

Rates of past year methamphetamine use among persons aged 12 or older were among the highest in Nevada (2.0 percent), Montana (1.5 percent), and Wyoming (1.5 percent), and among the lowest in Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and New York (approximately 0.1 percent)


Young adults aged 18 to 25 were more likely to use methamphetamine in the past year (1.6 percent) than youths aged 12 to 17 (0.7 percent) and adults aged 26 or older (0.4 percent)


Rates of past year methamphetamine use among young adults aged 18 to 25 were among the highest in Wyoming (4.6 percent), Arkansas (4.4 percent), Minnesota (3.8 percent), and Nevada (3.8 percent), and among the lowest in New York (0.3 percent), Connecticut (0.4 percent), and Vermont (0.4 percent)

 

[fran]

Google 'keywords' meth and murder:


http://www.gallupindependent.com/2007/feb/021507nkj_mthmrdrratesup.html

Meth use, murder rates up
Benally blames drug for sharp increase killings on reservation



Google 'keywords' meth use and murder arizona:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0818/p02s01-ussc.html

Arizona battles top-of-the-chart crime rates as meth use increases


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5072310
Navajo Nation Cracks Down on Meth After Murders

..................snip..........Last month, an execution-style triple homicide shocked the reservation's law enforcement officials into action.





I could go on, but I'm sure I made my point.

fran

 

[dgfred]

So according to that link he had to slap him during that hunting trip AND at the family gathering too? Alot of slaps going around eh? No matter what the
boy acted like, nobody was too concerned as to not leave him alone or with friends for long periods of times with ammo/guns readily available. Strange.
And also even if he could handle the gun, in my opinion he couldn't have used
THAT bolt-action gun to do this. So those statements of his ability doesn't mean much in my opinion once again.

 

[azmama]

Google 'keywords' meth and murder:


http://www.gallupindependent.com/2007/feb/021507nkj_mthmrdrratesup.html

Meth use, murder rates up
Benally blames drug for sharp increase killings on reservation



Google 'keywords' meth use and murder arizona:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0818/p02s01-ussc.html

Arizona battles top-of-the-chart crime rates as meth use increases


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5072310
Navajo Nation Cracks Down on Meth After Murders

..................snip..........Last month, an execution-style triple homicide shocked the reservation's law enforcement officials into action.





I could go on, but I'm sure I made my point.

fran

I was trying to let it go, thanks for the links Fran.

These are exactly what I was talking about. We also have many issues along the same line since we share a border with Mexico...

 

[fran]

I was trying to let it go, thanks for the links Fran.

These are exactly what I was talking about. We also have many issues along the same line since we share a border with Mexico...

Y/W azmama:

Here's a more recent article about meth-use in Arizona and then a map showing St. Johns and their proximity to Navajo County. The more rural an area, imo, the higher vulnerability to meth use. Why? Because there's more areas to 'produce' meth, undetected. Out in the middle of nowhere. PLUS, meth is BIG business in Mexico. As you said, Arizona is a border state.

While most Americans are facing job loss, guess what federal agency is working over-time? DEA,............Drug Enforcement Agency........they have LOTS of work.

DRUGS KILL,
fran

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/frontpage/62903.php
.............snip............One out of 10 eighth-, 10th- and 12th-graders in Navajo County has tried methamphetamine at least once, a figure that highlights the dangers the drug poses to rural Arizona


http://www.stjohnsaz.com/arizonamap.html

 

[azmama]

Thanks Fran! I will take a look

Two new docs posted;
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

 

[MeoW333]

Thanks Fran! I will take a look

Two new docs posted;
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

In the new doc dated TRANSCRIPT STATUS CONFERENCE DEC 22 08.pdf
the prosecution had a tape recorder Lt Jones' recorder which discussion that there had been a conflict between 2 officers as to what was said and of course the state can't get the tape recorder to work.
Mr. Carlyon replies "I'll give you what i have, but nobody can hear it." Lovely keystone cops geesh..

Brewer also mentions he had some interviews with Tiffany Romero and Tanya Romans.

 

[MeoW333]

TRANSCRIPT STATUS CONFERENCE JAN 6 09.pdf

In this one it is mentioned Brewer offers to pay for the boy's therapist out of his own pocket, as the court was complaining they got a bill for the therapist. Brewer really seems to have the boy's best interests.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Google 'keywords' meth and murder:


http://www.gallupindependent.com/2007/feb/021507nkj_mthmrdrratesup.html

Meth use, murder rates up
Benally blames drug for sharp increase killings on reservation



Google 'keywords' meth use and murder arizona:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0818/p02s01-ussc.html

Arizona battles top-of-the-chart crime rates as meth use increases


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5072310
Navajo Nation Cracks Down on Meth After Murders

..................snip..........Last month, an execution-style triple homicide shocked the reservation's law enforcement officials into action.





I could go on, but I'm sure I made my point.

fran

Thank you.

The first link just gives total homicides. It doesn't tell what type of homicides they are, such as how many where domestic violence homicides where a family member or family members were killed. Do you know where I can find a breakdown of the type of homicides that are occurring on the Navajo reservation and how many people reside on the reservation?

The second link gives the overall crime rate for Arizona including all murders in the state. Arizona is #5. Unfortunately out of curiosity I went and checked my own state of Georgia, and it ranks #4 in the nation.

"No. 1 rating, Arizona ranks first in the nation in property crime and motor-vehicle theft. It's second in larceny theft, fourth in burglary, and fifth in murder."

The third link the murders mentioned happened in 2005, so since they cracked down has the rate dropped in the recent years?

We have a lot of drugs being used, made in Ga. and transported in and out of my state. We have wide open highways (US #75, 85, 95) that come all the way down the east coast of the USA, right on down to the Keys in Florida. Georgia is filled with many small towns and many rural areas that are plaqued with meth and other illegal drugs.

imoo

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Thank you.

The first link just gives total homicides. It doesn't tell what type of homicides they are, such as how many where domestic violence homicides where a family member or family members were killed. Do you know where I can find a breakdown of the type of homicides that are occurring on the Navajo reservation and how many people reside on the reservation?

The second link gives the overall crime rate for Arizona including all murders in the state. Arizona is #5. Unfortunately out of curiosity I went and checked my own state of Georgia, and it ranks #4 in the nation.

"No. 1 rating, Arizona ranks first in the nation in property crime and motor-vehicle theft. It's second in larceny theft, fourth in burglary, and fifth in murder."

The third link the murders mentioned happened in 2005, so since they cracked down has the rate dropped in the recent years?

We have a lot of drugs being used, made in Ga. and transported in and out of my state. We have wide open highways (US #75, 85, 95) that come all the way down the east coast of the USA, right on down to the Keys in Florida. Georgia is filled with many small towns and many rural areas that are plaqued with meth and other illegal drugs.

imoo

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point. What does AZ have to do with GA in terms of crime, drugs, and murders? In my opinion, it would be like me trying to compare where I am to North Dakota. You cannot, nor should you, compare one state to another in crime stats. Comparisions, are just that, comparisions. It is not the whole of any picture or real living fact within the state, city, or town. If you would like to do this, then check into the North East corridor. There is a plethora of avenues for the drug trade. It surrounds us no matter where we live...

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point. What does AZ have to do with GA in terms of crime, drugs, and murders? In my opinion, it would be like me trying to compare where I am to North Dakota. You cannot, nor should you, compare one state to another in crime stats. Comparisons, are just that, comparisions. It is not the whole of any picture or real living fact within the state, city, or town. If you would like to do this, then check into the North East corridor. There is a plethora of avenues for the drug trade. It surrounds us no matter where we live...

imo

Because they seem to compare in murder rates, especially with Georgia ranking 4th in the nation and Arizona ranking next at #5.

Both have the same crime problems, such as murder and other violent crimes. They also are plagued with meth in rural areas.

Well aren't we talking about murder here and possibly a cause was a meth dealer or user going over and killing Vinnie and Tim in broad daylight?:waitasec:

I don't know how the Navajo reservation got tossed in the mix but since it was it would be very interesting to know how many of the 15-30 murders were domestic violence against family members and which ones were against other druggies in retaliation imo.

imoo

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Because they seem to compare in murder rates, especially with Georgia ranking 4th in the nation and Arizona ranking next at #5.

Both have the same crime problems, such as murder and other violent crimes. They also are plagued with meth in rural areas.

Well aren't we talking about murder here and possibly a cause was a meth dealer or user going over and killing Vinnie and Tim in broad daylight?:waitasec:

I don't know how the Navajo reservation got tossed in the mix but since it was it would be very interesting to know how many of the 15-30 murders were domestic violence against family members and which ones were against other druggies in retaliation imo.

imoo

All this is your personal opinion which you have every right to have. As far as Tim Romans is concerned, LE has tossed in his history as well as their concern as to his status as a drug dealer. That is fact and not speculation. That is enough for discussion at to possibilities of other POI.

imo

 

[MeoW333]

Because they seem to compare in murder rates, especially with Georgia ranking 4th in the nation and Arizona ranking next at #5.

Both have the same crime problems, such as murder and other violent crimes. They also are plagued with meth in rural areas.

Well aren't we talking about murder here and possibly a cause was a meth dealer or user going over and killing Vinnie and Tim in broad daylight?:waitasec:

I don't know how the Navajo reservation got tossed in the mix but since it was it would be very interesting to know how many of the 15-30 murders were domestic violence against family members and which ones were against other druggies in retaliation imo.

imoo

Wow i'm surprised Georgia ranked #5 in the nation, i have kin there in Hephzibah.

What does domestic violence against family members and violence against druggie on the reservation? I don't understand why domestic violence murders? We'd really have to dissect it down to murders during robberies, random murders, gang murders, etc. It would be a task to be able to, i'm not sure if all that research is available.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Wow i'm surprised Georgia ranked #5 in the nation, i have kin there in Hephzibah.

What does domestic violence against family members and violence against druggie on the reservation? I don't understand why domestic violence murders? We'd really have to dissect it down to murders during robberies, random murders, gang murders, etc. It would be a task to be able to, i'm not sure if all that research is available.

You and me both, and I have lived here all my life. In my area we have around 7 murders a year in the neighboring county from me and that is too much imo. In my own county it is about 2 or 3 per year.

Well I have read that on reservations they not only have drug problems but also have dire problems with alcohol abuse, child abuse and domestic violence in general. So that is why I thought it would be interesting to know how many of these 15 to 30 murders listed in Fran's link where against their own families instead of others.

Yes, if we knew those caused by domestic violence then we could whittle it down to how many were done in robberies or drug retaliations on the reservation.



imoo

 

[fran]

Previously, someone said something about not being able to, or not seeing where murders or whatever, were in any way connected to meth. The links I provided earlier, were to show that, YES, indeed, drugs, including meth use and dealing, are directly related to an increase in crime AND murders. There IS a drug problem in Arizona. The last link I gave was for Navajo County, which is very close to St. Johns, in Apache County.

I don't believe it matters the % of murders committed that involve domestic violence vs whatever else, where drugs are involved. The point is, drugs, and especially meth, kill.

There is NO honor and no code of ethics and no set rules with drug addicts or dealers. They don't have to have a reason for killing someone, other than they're mad because they are owed money, or they're high on drugs or.......just because. They don't care if they use a glock, rifle, shot gun or a hammer, whatever is available. IF they don't have a gun with them and they can steal one, they do and use it and don't look back.

The FACT that Tim was a drug dealer
Tim told someone shortly before he was murdered someone wanted to kill him
Tim had already been shot at by a drug addict (cousin, Tim's truck, on the reservation)
Tim was murdered
Tim was shot 1 1/2 times more than Vince.

POINTS, to ME, that this was more likely a drug related crime. Tim very well could have been the main target and Vince collateral damage. IF the child had been present, he would most likely have been collateral damage as well.

It makes much more sense that this was a drug related crime than an 8 yo child did this crime,...............shooting both victims a total of 10 times, with a single, bolt action rifle,............MOST especially pointing towards someone else, because there is a 22 automatic gun missing from the murder scene. I don't think the killer would take time to put the weapon back under the bed, he'd more likely just steal it. (UNTIL we see in writing WHERE the auto 22 is, it is missing.)

When the child's gun is declared the murder weapon, with experts from both the pros AND DEF,..........then I'll believe the possibility it was the child that committed this crime. UNTIL then, I've seen NOT one thing that makes me believe this child committed these murders. Even the child's words are just that, words.

It is a disservice to this child AND the victims, to completely disregard the possibility that this is a drug related crime. Although the local press is playing it down, the implication of drug involvement is there and should not be ignored, imo.

After all, .......don't we want this crime SOLVED and justice for these two murder victims and their families? NOT looking at all avenues and using the child as a scape goat just because St. John's PD blew the investigation and interview, is not a reason to stop investigating. We need ALL the answers.

Until we see it in print from a reliable source, ie LE or the court, we don't KNOW the investigation is ongoing, we don't know the answers, we're just guessing. 50/50 chance of right or wrong.

JMHO
fran