Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5

[Inspector_North]

I agree that this is most likely what happened. Nothing about it seemed well planned for actual murder.

Could be, but the jury did find them both guilty of M1 in the TB case. Maybe planned, but not well planned. Seems DM and MS were not very good at planning anything. MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

As far as a premeditated and shared plan for killing Laura, how ‘bout that three week wait for the incinerator in the July heat? Does that really seem like a plan? The easy answer is that he didn’t expect the wait, but he certainly did expect some wait. It wouldn’t even arrive until the 5th, and anybody would expect some time to complete assembly and ensure it will be operational.

There were propane tanks to size, buy, install and fill. There were propane suppliers to find and generators to figure out, and most notably there was an entire trailer that needed building. They didn’t even have the raw steel for it for at least a week after Laura’s death. The first time the trailer became a rush was after Laura died. It became the “first priority after the Yukon” precisely on July 4.

There was no significant attempt to get ahead of any part of this project before that. Materials could have been ordered and timed to be available when the incinerator arrived. They were not. There is very little reason to expect that DM thought an operational incinerator was as imminent as it needed to be if you’re going to kill a woman in July.

 

[JuneBug67]

Could be, but the jury did find them both guilty of M1 in the TB case. Maybe planned, but not well planned. Seems DM and MS were not very good at planning anything. MOO

For me it was the trail of eye witnesses they left, the multiple people that knew a robbery was planned because of how chatty they were about it, the kijiji ads and auto trader ads all those same people saw all over the computer, the fact that they carted their own phones around with them, no indication that MS expected to be gone all night, no other plan than a truck in plain sight at the hangar, the backing off on Igor and the clearly, clearly unplanned way the shot was ultimately fired

All in all it was enough planning and caution for the kind of heat an armed robbery would generate, but not a disappearance and presumed murder.

 

[Tilly23]

As far as a premeditated and shared plan for killing Laura, how ‘bout that three week wait for the incinerator in the July heat? Does that really seem like a plan? The easy answer is that he didn’t expect the wait, but he certainly did expect some wait. It wouldn’t even arrive until the 5th, and anybody would expect some time to complete assembly and ensure it will be operational.

There were propane tanks to size, buy, install and fill. There were propane suppliers to find and generators to figure out, and most notably there was an entire trailer that needed building. They didn’t even have the raw steel for it for at least a week after Laura’s death. The first time the trailer became a rush was after Laura died. It became the “first priority after the Yukon” precisely on July 4.

There was no significant attempt to get ahead of any part of this project before that. Materials could have been ordered and timed to be available when the incinerator arrived. They were not. There is very little reason to expect that DM thought an operational incinerator was as imminent as it needed to be if you’re going to kill a woman in July.

I think it was in character for DM to think his "new toy" would be operational out of the box. We have not seen any evidence that he was realistic in thinking things through from a planning perspective. If you follow the series of texts between DM and SS, DM is almost like a child repeatedly asking "is it ready yet?"

MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

What you are describing is our innate "fight or flight" instincts. It's how our nervous system reacts to being in a dangerous or threatening situation, activating these instincts. And, you are right, there is no way to know which manner any one person will respond: fighting or fleeing. It's highly individualized and somewhat random.

With that being said, I still don't know if I buy the "car robbery gone wrong" theory. By this point he has already (allegedly...) killed LB and WM, so I'm inclined to believe that murder was part of the plan. JMO though.

Edit to add: I'm also very sorry to hear that happened to you.

Thanks Grey-St. It was more than 20 years ago now and no longer traumatizing in any way. In fact I see it as a valuable learning experience and perhaps a chance to do something much less risky should I be in a comparable situation in the future.

 

[Grey-St]

As far as a premeditated and shared plan for killing Laura, how ‘bout that three week wait for the incinerator in the July heat? Does that really seem like a plan? The easy answer is that he didn’t expect the wait, but he certainly did expect some wait. It wouldn’t even arrive until the 5th, and anybody would expect some time to complete assembly and ensure it will be operational.

There were propane tanks to size, buy, install and fill. There were propane suppliers to find and generators to figure out, and most notably there was an entire trailer that needed building. They didn’t even have the raw steel for it for at least a week after Laura’s death. The first time the trailer became a rush was after Laura died. It became the “first priority after the Yukon” precisely on July 4.

There was no significant attempt to get ahead of any part of this project before that. Materials could have been ordered and timed to be available when the incinerator arrived. They were not. There is very little reason to expect that DM thought an operational incinerator was as imminent as it needed to be if you’re going to kill a woman in July.

I don't think anyone believes it was a good, or well thought out plan, but I'm inclined to believe a plan existed. His urgency is very telling. In his texts it's as if he believes the incinerator can be operational and mobile within a day or two. It's not realistic or rational, and keeps being pushed back by SS. The 3 week wait was certainly not part of the plan, but the plan existed, IMO.

 

[JuneBug67]

I think it was in character for DM to think his "new toy" would be operational out of the box. We have not seen any evidence that he was realistic in thinking things through from a planning perspective. If you follow the series of texts between DM and SS, DM is almost like a child repeatedly asking "is it ready yet?"

MOO

He keeps asking if it’s ready yet because he’s created an extremely urgent need. If we attribute planning when there was none, he’s certainly going to look like a poor planner indeed.

 

[Inspector_North]

For me it was the trail of eye witnesses they left, the multiple people that knew a robbery was planned because of how chatty they were about it, the kijiji ads and auto trader ads all those same people saw all over the computer, the fact that they carted their own phones around with them, no indication that MS expected to be gone all night, no other plan than a truck in plain sight at the hangar, the backing off on Igor and the clearly, clearly unplanned way the shot was ultimately fired

All in all it was enough planning and caution for the kind of heat an armed robbery would generate, but not a disappearance and presumed murder.

We could go back and forth with snippets of these deadly missions and come up with different conclusions. The actions they took after the "gone wrong" murders is very telling. It wasn't until LE was hot on DM's trail before he even considered hiding, and even returning the Truck. The boldness of taking the tarp picture, or putting the truck in the hangar tells me something didn't go wrong. Rather it went as planned. And those plans included his partner. MOO

 

[ABro]

I don't think anyone believes it was a good, or well thought out plan, but I'm inclined to believe a plan existed. His urgency is very telling. In his texts it's as if he believes the incinerator can be operational and mobile within a day or two. It's not realistic or rational, and keeps being pushed back by SS. The 3 week wait was certainly not part of the plan, but the plan existed, IMO.

There's also the curious evidence about the homemade incinerator and how it ended up damaged and in pieces. Schlatman testified that the last time he saw it, it was intact. So what happened to it?

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

For me it was the trail of eye witnesses they left, the multiple people that knew a robbery was planned because of how chatty they were about it, the kijiji ads and auto trader ads all those same people saw all over the computer, the fact that they carted their own phones around with them, no indication that MS expected to be gone all night, no other plan than a truck in plain sight at the hangar, the backing off on Igor and the clearly, clearly unplanned way the shot was ultimately fired

All in all it was enough planning and caution for the kind of heat an armed robbery would generate, but not a disappearance and presumed murder.

Why are we always building complicated narratives? If they just wanted to steal a truck, then just steal a truck. Find one you like and steal it when no one is around - like every other theft they ever committed.

Who steals a truck by taking a test drive and then robbing a guy at gun point?

 

[inbetweendoors]

For me it was the trail of eye witnesses they left, the multiple people that knew a robbery was planned because of how chatty they were about it, the kijiji ads and auto trader ads all those same people saw all over the computer, the fact that they carted their own phones around with them, no indication that MS expected to be gone all night, no other plan than a truck in plain sight at the hangar, the backing off on Igor and the clearly, clearly unplanned way the shot was ultimately fired

All in all it was enough planning and caution for the kind of heat an armed robbery would generate, but not a disappearance and presumed murder.

Exactly my rationale.

 

[inbetweendoors]

Why are we always building complicated narratives? If they just wanted to steal a truck, then just steal a truck. Find one you like and steal it when no one is around - like every other theft they ever committed.

Who steals a truck by taking a test drive and then robbing a guy at gun point?

Because you need the chipped key, don't you?

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

So outside of crazy scenarios

Do people think DM will call any witnesses for his defense?

I highly suspect he will. Just don't think he can resist and expect it go on much longer than we saw at the TB case since DM will get into the every piece of minutia of the case. Wouldn't shock me if he calls himself as well even though it would be a terrible decision.

Does anyone think he won't call any witnesses or evidence?

 

[Grey-St]

There's also the curious evidence about the homemade incinerator and how it ended up damaged and in pieces. Schlatman testified that the last time he saw it, it was intact. So what happened to it?

Very suspicious indeed. I don't even know if I've made sense of that tidbit myself, at this point. What do you think, ABro?

 

[Tilly23]

He keeps asking if it’s ready yet because he’s created an extremely urgent need. If we attribute planning when there was none, he’s certainly going to look like a poor planner indeed.

Well, I don't think we can say there was no planning. There was certainly planning that went into procuring an incinerator, for whatever purpose. I would agree that from July 4 the "I've got a decomposing dead body" problem would likely be causing DM to push hard to get the project completed. But it does not explain his unrealistic expectations regarding how long it was going to take. That I would attribute to a completely unrealistic understanding DM had during the planning stage.

MOO

 

[Satchie]

Why are we always building complicated narratives? If they just wanted to steal a truck, then just steal a truck. Find one you like and steal it when no one is around - like every other theft they ever committed.

Who steals a truck by taking a test drive and then robbing a guy at gun point?

Actually, I believe that kind of truck is impossible to steal without the key. And to tow his vehicle to Baja, he needed that kind of truck.

 

[banting]

I'm a bit puzzled as to how this trial has got so far ahead of schedule. DM's crosses have often been long drawn out affairs, so did a lot of evidence get deemed inadmissible along the way? There are certainly several loose ends that didn't seem to get followed through, such as the mattress, the Dodge Caravan and the CN camp work.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Because you need the chipped key, don't you?

Bunch of ways to steal a car with a chipped key that are easier than holding a gun to a guys head.
https://www.wired.com/2006/08/carkey/

 

[Grey-St]

So outside of crazy scenarios

Do people think DM will call any witnesses for his defense?

I highly suspect he will. Just don't think he can resist and expect it go on much longer than we saw at the TB case since DM will get into the every piece of minutia of the case. Wouldn't shock me if he calls himself as well even though it would be a terrible decision.

Does anyone think he won't call any witnesses or evidence?

It's so hard to speculate what either defence is thinking, strategy wise, but I'm also of the opinion that DM will be calling witnesses. I don't think he possesses the rational or realistic ability to understand that he's toast. He just won't be able to resist it, either.

I have a question to add: Does anyone know, if neither defence wish to call witnesses, will they go right into closing arguments? Or will the judge give them a cushiony few days to yet again, prepare. Thoughts?

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Actually, I believe that kind of truck is impossible to steal without the key. And to tow his vehicle to Baja, he needed that kind of truck.

Cars thefts didn't stop when chipped keys came into existence.