Baez - Just Lost The Trial

[crucibelle]

BBM
I can't believe I am going to type this but have to...
It could have taken 2 seconds to get the child out of the pool. GA can easily reach over the side of the pool and scoop Caylee out in under 2 seconds without ever getting more then up to his elbows wet. Do it with my daughter in and out of the pool all the time she is now 5 and 50 lbs. I am also half the size of GA.

OT - GA is pretty big dude. I would love to see open a can of whoop *advertiser censored** on JB!

ETA-i am with you on the story being as rotten as a bag of garbage though.

I agree... Even if George did climb the ladder, I don't think it would have taken him that long to remove Caylee from the pool. I'm not really buying this tale of JB's either, however. There's plenty of things that point to this story of JB's being a crock... I don't think we have to rely on things as "iffy" as the time it took George to remove Caylee from the pool. That would be very shaky evidence, IMO.

 

[chicklet]

As a former prosecutor who has tried many death penalty cases, you absolutely never know how a juror or jurors will look at the evidence based on their own life experiences. This is a very interesting case for seeking the death penalty. Normally, most domestic homicides are not prosecuted as death penalty cases. In most cases jurors do come to the truth. A guilty verdict does appear a likely outcome, however, I would be very surprised if the jury recommends death.

There is something else to consider in this case that is pretty unique...there is no cause or manner of death. All the defense needs to accomplish is plant a tiny seed of reasonable doubt in one juror. I have not obsessively followed this case as most here have done. I was aware of the basics and probably knew more than the jurors know going in and I am in no way convinced that ICA is guilty of murder. I also believe that GA did molest ICA based on a couple of things. First, I think ICA's behavior fits with Borderline Personality Disorder (promiscuity, shopping sprees, lying, manipulation, splitting, coming across as callous, inappropriate emotional reactions, etc) and the main common denominator between people with BPD is childhood trauma, often sexual trauma. Second, I felt that GA's testimony came across as being evasive and dishonest in many instances. He broke eye contact when asked about the sexual abuse, looked down, used the "I did not" instead of "I didn't" and he had small facial changes that indicate he was lying. He also tried to avoid answering a lot of direct questions by attempting to give long and involved explanations that came across as him trying to confuse and muddle up his answer so that he essentially didn't really answer at all. What I saw of CA's testimony came across to me as being genuine and honest.

I don't think they will get a murder conviction. I'm not sure if they've included manslaughter or something similar, which I think they would probably convict on. Without a cause of death or manner of death I don't think they will find her guilty of murder. I also can't help but wonder if the defense might have grounds for a mistrial. In what I've watched I have found the judge to appear very biased against the defense when it comes to questioning GA. He also allowed GA to ramble and ramble instead of just answering the direct question. I'm admittedly not sure of whether something like that would be grounds or not. I just thought it was very obvious that the judge was being a bit unfair in that respect.

 

[KPCrimeNY]

I agree... Even if George did climb the ladder, I don't think it would have taken him that long to remove Caylee from the pool. I'm not really buying this tale of JB's either, however. There's plenty of things that point to this story of JB's being a crock... I don't think we have to rely on things as "iffy" as the time it took George to remove Caylee from the pool. That would be very shaky evidence, IMO.

BBM
Plus how many of the jurors do you think would go as far as the people here to do the math?

 

[darnudes]

I found a section of video where Baez and Mason are clearly worried about a certain photo - this is the one of the Anthony house where if you are standing facing the house you are looking at the left hand side. At approx 13.26

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/user/Sierra1947#p/u/14/-jpVz69jcGo"]YouTube - ‪Sierra1947's Channel‬‏[/ame]

I wonder if Baez had a wtf moment? Mason was concerned enough to say something to Baez and Baez's body language is clearly showing something's wrong.

I wonder did they choose the wrong side of the house? Baez was very specific in his opening delivery on which side of the house ICA went down. Just got me thinking. At approx 11.47

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/user/Sierra1947#p/u/137/5k0Xs5972DY"]YouTube - ‪Sierra1947's Channel‬‏[/ame]

 

[darnudes]

True I was automatically thinking flaoting.
Strike that your honor.

Sincerely,
Sorry to Darnudes and InfoJunkie for even going here.

Hey no probs, I love people to pick holes in my reasoning.

 

[crucibelle]

True I was automatically thinking flaoting.
Strike that your honor.

Sincerely,
Sorry to Darnudes and InfoJunkie for even going here.

I think you are correct.. she would be floating, not at the bottom of the pool. There's a term "dead man's float" for a reason. I know that sounds awful.

 

[KPCrimeNY]

Hey no probs, I love people to pick holes in my reasoning.

Cool. I just never want to come across as the guy looking to fight with people on the internet. I can't stand it. Thanks!

 

[Soulmagent]

Are there actual transcripts to the opening statement? It may prove interesting to pick apart.

I dont think he has auto lost his case based on his OS. It is way to early to tell and that statement made an impact with how all the witnesses are veiwed.

The jury saw ME was not allowed to talk about something Casey told her.
They know TL was told a secret by Casey concerning abuse.

They also know it was not allowed to be told to them. That right there is enough to make a shadow of doubt stay in their minds.

Was Casey abused ? They are wondering as they look at her.
Why is george al weird about the gas cans they want to know.
Why are the potted plants next to the pool, Did Caylee drown.
Why is george so careful with planning and caring for everything but he left his jack stands in Caseys car?
Why does the grass not grow anymore?
Why did Cind start sleeping with a teddy bear the first night Caylee was away from home?
Where did it go?

What happened to the messy car the lady at the amscot saw and why was she not shown a picture of the inside of the car.
Why didnt Caseys freinds smell a smell?

George lies and Casey lies this they KNOW it has been proven in court they both lie.
Why no child lock devices on the sliding glass doors ,3 sets of them.

There are probably more questions they are asking and a big one is why all the lies but I dont think the court did a good job connecting the lies to murder because the lies have been on going for a long time , alot longer then the 31 days Caylee was "missing".

And a very observant jury member may even notice how Cindy always messes Casey name up with someone elses.

We have a long way to get to before the Jury is as aware as we are and who is to say what will be information entered into court for the jury to know.

 

[gxm]

I agree... Even if George did climb the ladder, I don't think it would have taken him that long to remove Caylee from the pool. I'm not really buying this tale of JB's either, however. There's plenty of things that point to this story of JB's being a crock... I don't think we have to rely on things as "iffy" as the time it took George to remove Caylee from the pool. That would be very shaky evidence, IMO.

To me the even less believable part of the story is that they both didn't run to the pool first thing. Missing child. Outdoor pool. Hey, let's check the closets first. Good grief. The defense's story is out and out ridiculous.

 

[Infojunkie]

BBM
Plus how many of the jurors do you think would go as far as the people here to do the math?

We're only on Day 4...of a 6-8 week trial. Their job is to listen to the evidence. We need to believe in the State right now. They are telling a story, and today they chose to question until the end of the day....think about that.

 

[KPCrimeNY]

I think you are correct.. she would be floating, not at the bottom of the pool. There's a term "dead man's float" for a reason. I know that sounds awful.

I actaully was just researching and I'm not sure. Need a Scientist! lol

 

[gxm]

I think you are correct.. she would be floating, not at the bottom of the pool. There's a term "dead man's float" for a reason. I know that sounds awful.

Dead bodies sink first. The don't rise for several days at least, depending on conditions (water temp, etc.).

ETA: IIRC, if the body is still floating it means the lungs haven't filled with water yet. Hence, if GA found Caylee floating he would absolutely have tried to save her.

 

[shaye]

OMG! WOW! I never once thought about that! GA would NEVER have gone to work that day. NEVER. Shock, despair, anger, and all the rest that I cannot fathom, would have called for a sick day.

I think the nail in JB's coffin, is those 911 tapes, videos, etc. If it was an accident, would sociopath ICA spend 3 years covering for ANYONE!?

While I would like to blame her attorney, he only came into after the fact. Although, I would like to know were he was June 16th. He's <mod snip> Big time, and not fit to stand trial!

BBM.
I think BAEZ just put the FINAL NAIL in KC's coffin w/this BS story and after today, Cindy buried it!! Big mistake on their part coming up w/this new and improved version of blaming George and thinking Cindy was gonna go along w/it....looks like KC just slapped Cindy right out of that denial she's been in for 3 years....way to go KC! :great:

 

[Cher352]

Here is what I found:

A cadaver in the water starts to sink as soon as the air in its lungs is replaced with water. Once submerged, the body stays underwater until the bacteria in the gut and chest cavity produce enough gas&#8212;methane, hydrogen sulfide, and carbon dioxide&#8212;to float it to the surface like a balloon. (The buildup of methane, hydrogen sulfide, and other gases can take days or weeks, depending on a number of factors.

http://www.slate.com/id/2126310/

 

[KPCrimeNY]

Dead bodies sink first. The don't rise for several days at least, depending on conditions (water temp, etc.).

From what I just read it would take 1-2 days in 80 degree pool whcih is probably pretty accurate for FLA pool in Mid June no?

 

[PGWodehouse]

Yes, dead bodies generally sink, b/c the lungs are filled with water. "Dead man's float" is actually a survival floating technique you use to conserve energy in case you're caught out in the ocean and are awaiting rescue. It utilizes the "full lungs will allow you to float" idea. Here in Florida, most people I know are familiar with techniques for water survival as well as for surviving rip tides, hurricanes etc. It's part of living around the water and boating.

That said, there is a small percentage of "drowning" victims that do not get any appreciable water in the lungs. The person inhales water, a small amount gets into the lungs, the flaps over the trachea snap shut to prevent further injestion, and the person is unable to breathe. If I recall my college A&P class correctly, this occurs in about 10 percent of drowning cases. Presumably, in those cases the body would float, but it is more likely Caylee would have been at the bottom of the pool.

Of course, the most likely thing of all is that if she had drowned, she would not have been found months later, skeletenized with duct tape over her mouth and nose.

 

[gxm]

From what I just read it would take 1-2 days in 80 degree pool whcih is probably pretty accurate for FLA pool in Mid June no?

I only know that it depends on various conditions. Just read the terrible story of a 7-year old that drowned at a pool party with people around and because the pool was so cloudy they didn't find him until the water cleared two days later and he could be seen at the bottom of the pool. Terrible story. Apparently more children drown while supervised than unsupervised. They call drowning the "silent killer" because it's not at all like it is depicted on TV and in the movies. There's not a lot of flailing around, the victim usually just slips away under the water.

Here's the link. It's a safety oriented article so I think it's safe to share without a trigger warning.

 

[KPCrimeNY]

Yes, dead bodies generally sink, b/c the lungs are filled with water. "Dead man's float" is actually a survival floating technique you use to conserve energy in case you're caught out in the ocean and are awaiting rescue. It utilizes the "full lungs will allow you to float" idea. Here in Florida, most people I know are familiar with techniques for water survival as well as for surviving rip tides, hurricanes etc. It's part of living around the water and boating.

That said, there is a small percentage of "drowning" victims that do not get any appreciable water in the lungs. The person inhales water, a small amount gets into the lungs, the flaps over the trachea snap shut to prevent further injestion, and the person is unable to breathe. If I recall my college A&P class correctly, this occurs in about 10 percent of drowning cases. Presumably, in those cases the body would float, but it is more likely Caylee would have been at the bottom of the pool.

Of course, the most likely thing of all is that if she had drowned, she would not have been found months later, skeletenized with duct tape over her mouth and nose.

BBM
:clap::clap::clap:

 

[chicklet]

From what I just read it would take 1-2 days in 80 degree pool whcih is probably pretty accurate for FLA pool in Mid June no?

The size and weight of the body are relevant as well. Also, if the family used a salt water pump system then the buoyancy would be greater.

 

[jen&jonhart]

There is something else to consider in this case that is pretty unique...there is no cause or manner of death. All the defense needs to accomplish is plant a tiny seed of reasonable doubt in one juror. I have not obsessively followed this case as most here have done. I was aware of the basics and probably knew more than the jurors know going in and I am in no way convinced that ICA is guilty of murder. I also believe that GA did molest ICA based on a couple of things. First, I think ICA's behavior fits with Borderline Personality Disorder (promiscuity, shopping sprees, lying, manipulation, splitting, coming across as callous, inappropriate emotional reactions, etc) and the main common denominator between people with BPD is childhood trauma, often sexual trauma. Second, I felt that GA's testimony came across as being evasive and dishonest in many instances. He broke eye contact when asked about the sexual abuse, looked down, used the "I did not" instead of "I didn't" and he had small facial changes that indicate he was lying. He also tried to avoid answering a lot of direct questions by attempting to give long and involved explanations that came across as him trying to confuse and muddle up his answer so that he essentially didn't really answer at all. What I saw of CA's testimony came across to me as being genuine and honest.

I don't think they will get a murder conviction. I'm not sure if they've included manslaughter or something similar, which I think they would probably convict on. Without a cause of death or manner of death I don't think they will find her guilty of murder. I also can't help but wonder if the defense might have grounds for a mistrial. In what I've watched I have found the judge to appear very biased against the defense when it comes to questioning GA. He also allowed GA to ramble and ramble instead of just answering the direct question. I'm admittedly not sure of whether something like that would be grounds or not. I just thought it was very obvious that the judge was being a bit unfair in that respect.

I dont think that HHJP has been unfair to the defense at all. He has bent over backwards with them imo. I agree ga rambled but jb was asking confusing questions imo.As far as getting a murder conviction without a cause of death.There have been many cases where someone was covicted without a body ever being found.I think having ducktape placed over your nose and mouth pretty much screams cause of death imo.