GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #4

[Kamille]

Don't be too sure about that (Elkin and Flavia). See my link a page or so back to 'Courtrecord' or something like that. They're quoting from what seems to be some kind of court record. IIRC, after Elkin and Flavia left Bali (without springing HM and taking her home), she lost confidence in them but didn't actually dismiss them until she hooked up with Soenardo.

This might explain some of what seemed to be confused reporting earlier. HM's legal team consisted of both US and Indonesian lawyers. Firing her US lawyers doesn't have to mean firing her Indonesian lawyers. There's been earlier confusion about who was representing her or parted ways with her and why. This might explain that: at some point, she dumped Elkin and Flavia and Rasnution and went solely with Soenardi. Perhaps Soenardi figured that since she was originally willing to pay two legal teams, one American and one Indonesian, why should she be the one to profit from firing Elkin/Flavia and going with all-Indonesian representation.

We don't know if Soenardi knew exactly how much HM is potentially worth, but it's sure public knowledge now. Maybe the best to hope for is that Soenardi will take every opportunity to try to bleed her dry, including possibly setting her up to file an appeal of any sentence she might get.

I think Ary Soenardi wanted all lawyers who might be suspect of what he was going to do with the money off the case. They are paying a lot of lip service to trying to clean up this kind of corruption, although it's unlikely they're doing much more than that. It was probably a provision for taking on HM's case for her to get rid of the other lawyers just so he wouldn't have to deal with any of them or answer any questions. I hope there has been enough publicity about him and his "dubious" record of light sentences for him and the judges to think twice about this. But I doubt it.

MOO

 

[al66pine]

....
William Wiese is still trustee of the rest of the money, right? Get ready for a wrongful death suit, Mr Wiese.

sbm

Sorry to be dense ---
who filing W/D suit against who, on what basis, and where?

ETA, Sorry I jumped ahead and posted, instead of reading all posts.
I get it now. Never mind.

 

[ajaylee]

I think Ary Soenardi wanted all lawyers who might be suspect of what he was going to do with the money off the case. They are paying a lot of lip service to trying to clean up this kind of corruption, although it's unlikely they're doing much more than that. It was probably a provision for taking on HM's case for her to get rid of the other lawyers just so he wouldn't have to deal with any of them or answer any questions. I hope there has been enough publicity about him and his "dubious" record of light sentences for him and the judges to think twice about this. But I doubt it.

MOO

Soenardi probably wants to share the payday with as few people as possible. If he and the judges and prosecutor really are in it together, it might be worth it to sentence HM to something less than the death penalty, but long enough to hurt - 8 years, for example. That provides them with a little protection against accusations of too light a sentence. It also leaves HM completely at their mercy. She either sits it out or goes for an appeal. Soenardi could threaten to torpedo an appeal if she tried to hire someone else, and he'd be able to name his price.

However, she's unbelievably cunning, so who knows?

 

[Orange Tabby]

Don't be too sure about that (Elkin and Flavia). See my link a page or so back to 'Courtrecord' or something like that. They're quoting from what seems to be some kind of court record. IIRC, after Elkin and Flavia left Bali (without springing HM and taking her home), she lost confidence in them but didn't actually dismiss them until she hooked up with Soenardo.

[SBM]

I agree with you ajaylee, the “Cook County Record” article is a must-read. I reproduce the link for it at the bottom of this post.

I linked to it Friday before Judge Cohen’s first hearing, noting then that it has the most detailed description of what’s gone on in the “lawyer wars” of any article thus far published.

The article quotes many times from the seven-page emergency motion that Antony Scifo filed on Heather’s behalf. This is the motion which resulted in Friday’s hearing, the canning of William Wiese as trustee (at least temporarily), and the now-ordered release of funds.

We know without a doubt that Scifo is currently one of Heather’s lawyers. He drew up the motion and it says, according to the “Cook County Record” article, that Heather has terminated her professional relationship with Michael Elkin and Vanessa Favia.

Interestingly, Favia appears to have been at today’s hearing, as she was the one quoted saying that all the other inmates are being so mean to Heather, even taking her food. Maybe Elkin and Favia are hoping to get some money out of Heather by simply continuing to show up.

http://cookcountyrecord.com/news/26...-county-seeking-trust-funds-to-pay-for-lawyer

 

[SouthAussie]

sbm

Sorry to be dense ---
who filing W/D suit against who, on what basis, and where?

Well, in my happy little bubble over here, I was hoping that Mr Wiese could file a wrongful death suit in the US against Heather Mack (in absentia, is that possible?) for the wrongful death of her mother - given the existing evidence.

And as for the rest of it ... thanks for pointing me in the right direction for the info, everyone. Just too much negative stuff in this case right now. It is doing my head in. ullhair:

Hoping for a little ray of sunshine somewhere. :sunshine:

Maybe after they go to court again today ......

 

[Orange Tabby]

I have to laugh at the absurdity of Cohen asking for an itemized bill. Once the money has been released and is in Soenardi's hands, what is Cohen going to do if Soenardi refuses to submit a bill to a US judge? Or if it's so laughably fraudulent as to be insulting? (line items: $20K for 'cultural taboo', $15K because the trial is already started, etc.)

[SBM; BBM]

When I read this I wanted to laugh and wanted to cry.

Soenardi is one slick dude and will find a way, even if it isn't as hilarious as ajaylee's example.

By the way, can someone check: does Soenardi offer a discount if his client hires him before the crime?!

 

[ajaylee]

[SBM; BBM]

When I read this I wanted to laugh and wanted to cry.

Soenardi is one slick dude and will find a way, even if it isn't as hilarious as ajaylee's example.

By the way, can someone check: does Soenardi offer a discount if his client hires him before the crime?!

Seriously, I did NOT make that up!

From the Cook County Record, he justified the increase in price from $150K (what Elkin/Flavia asked) because:

“due to the cultural taboos of this case, including but not limited to, an unwed mother suspected of killing her own mother, as well as a pending trial in approximately one month.”

It's a 'cultural taboo' to murder your mom while you're pregnant? Who would have guessed? I'll bet Elkin and Flavia never thought of that! Of course, he doesn't explain exactly how cultural taboos, specified and TBD, run up the bill.

 

[Orange Tabby]

Seriously, I did NOT make that up!

From the Cook County Record, he justified the increase in price from $150K (what Elkin/Flavia asked) because:

“due to the cultural taboos of this case, including but not limited to, an unwed mother suspected of killing her own mother, as well as a pending trial in approximately one month.”

I understood where you got the reference from. But it's another matter to put in on a line item of an invoice. That was your doing, and it was inspired hilarity.

 

[Kamille]

Seriously, I did NOT make that up!

From the Cook County Record, he justified the increase in price from $150K (what Elkin/Flavia asked) because:



It's a 'cultural taboo' to murder your mom while you're pregnant? Who would have guessed? I'll bet Elkin and Flavia never thought of that! Of course, he doesn't explain exactly how cultural taboos, specified and TBD, run up the bill.

I think those are two different cultural taboos he's quoting.

#1 Being an unwed mother (hence the pretendy rubber band rings)
#2 Killing your own mother

So what's the going rate for bribing a judge when faced with cultural taboos? 10-20 grand per taboo? To be paid to each judge and the prosecutor? Plus the regular going rate for a run of the mill murder bribe? Which might be a little less than a drug bribe because lord knows that's a WAY worse crime than premeditated murder. Just ask that young couple who each got about 15 years for the premeditated torture and murder of the dude's ex girlfriend. And then talk to the two guys on death row who were taking drugs OUT of the country. Oh and of course add on the expense of taking on a case a month prior to trial where he had to read the evidence quickly and therefore there is a premium for that. What's that worth? Another 10 grand added to the tab?

I just can't see what could possibly on an itemized list from an Indonesian attorney other than billable hours. Since HM canned her US attorneys, he shouldn't even have long distance phone calls on there unless he's counting calls to William Wiese to "show him the money".

:notgood:

MOO

 

[Kamille]

[SBM; BBM]

When I read this I wanted to laugh and wanted to cry.

Soenardi is one slick dude and will find a way, even if it isn't as hilarious as ajaylee's example.

By the way, can someone check: does Soenardi offer a discount if his client hires him before the crime?!

I want to know if any of the prisoners giving out his name as a referral get a half price bribe on appeal. :floorlaugh:

 

[SouthAussie]

I think those are two different cultural taboos he's quoting.

#1 Being an unwed mother (hence the pretendy rubber band rings)
#2 Killing your own mother

So what's the going rate for bribing a judge when faced with cultural taboos? 10-20 grand per taboo? To be paid to each judge and the prosecutor? Plus the regular going rate for a run of the mill murder bribe? Which might be a little less than a drug bribe because lord knows that's a WAY worse crime than premeditated murder. Just ask that young couple who each got about 15 years for the premeditated torture and murder of the dude's ex girlfriend. And then talk to the two guys on death row who were taking drugs OUT of the country. Oh and of course add on the expense of taking on a case a month prior to trial where he had to read the evidence quickly and therefore there is a premium for that. What's that worth? Another 10 grand added to the tab?

I just can't see what could possibly on an itemized list from an Indonesian attorney other than billable hours. Since HM canned her US attorneys, he shouldn't even have long distance phone calls on there unless he's counting calls to William Wiese to "show him the money".

:notgood:

MOO

:yes: AND add on the time that he has to sit off to the side in his robes and try to look professional while HM is in the chair, next to her interpreter, facing the judge. PLUS he may have to say a few words in court, if he is unlucky. 20-30 grand for that, surely.

 

[ajaylee]

OK, Kamille's post about Indonesian taboos (and how expensive it is for a lawyer to handle them in a murder trial) made me wonder this: could HM and TS get married right now? If they did, I wonder what effect it might have on the trial.

I don't know if something like that would be allowed in the US (get married after the trial is underway), but I think there are restrictions on forcing one spouse to testify against another in at least some jurisdictions.

I'm guessing not, or given the cost and difficulty of dealing with these taboos, perhaps Soenardi could have pulled strings to get HM and TS legally wed even while they are behind bars.

I wonder if he told her about the importance of the taboos - perhaps that's where she and TS got the idea to legitimize their relationship with their made-to-order string rings. I think that would impress HM - here's this local attorney known for being expensive but good when it comes to getting foreigners off. First thing he does is offer her a piece of advice that, as I'm sure he would point out, was local advice that Elkin and Flavia hadn't given her. It's possible that HM really doesn't know bribes are involved.

After all, she seemed to think her rapper-boy -wannabe was so street tough he might have a hitman on speed-dial...

 

[Orange Tabby]

Judge Cohen approves Ary Soenardi – SunTimes Update, Part 1

The Jon Seidel story in the Sun-Times, which I linked to earlier today, has been changed considerably, even though there is no acknowledgement of this on the webpage and even though it still bears the posting time of 11:52 a.m.

Here are some excerpts from the new version, none of which were in the story at the time I posted the original link, except the first quotation, which is an expansion of what Seidel originally wrote:

“She is definitely within his [Soenardi’s] control,” Mackoff said. “She refuses to have any other attorney than Ary Soenardi. And she will not accept any other attorney at this point.”

So Cohen said, “she’s got him.” … “We can’t protect people from themselves,” Cohen said.

Mackoff and the other lawyers broached the idea in court Tuesday of retrieving Mack from Indonesia so she could stand trial in the United States. But Cohen called that “magical thinking.”

“I don’t have a right to order that,” Cohen said.

But he did have questions about Mack’s deal with Soenardi.

“What’s the contract between the client and this attorney who’s never tried a murder case before in his life?” Cohen said.​

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news-ch...paid-trust-fund-murder-defendant-heather-mack

I realize Mackoff is an oldster (my guess: born circa 1932), but the very idea that Heather could be “retrieved” from Indonesia to stand trial instead in the U.S. is utterly demented. I am shocked that any of those attorneys would say such a thing in open court. I now fear that Mackoff hasn't got clue one as to how to monitor Soenardi.

It’s clear that Judge Cohen thinks that Soenardi is a poor choice for Heather because Soenardi hasn’t previously tried a murder case. He really is completely unconcerned about bribery and actually worries that Heather doesn’t know what she is doing.

Heather knows exactly what she’s doing.

 

[Orange Tabby]

Judge Cohen approves Ary Soenardi – SunTimes Update, Part 2

A few less important items from the Jon Seidel story in the Sun-Times. Again none of this was in the story at the time I posted the original link:

Vanessa Favia, a lawyer representing the unborn child, told reporters Tuesday that … she spoke to Mack by phone after court. She said Mack is “well” and grateful for the judge’s ruling. Michael Elkin, who has also represented Mack, said she maintains her innocence.

“I ask that the public again reserve their judgment until a verdict is entered,” Elkin said.​

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news-ch...paid-trust-fund-murder-defendant-heather-mack

Elkin is like an annoying rash: he won’t go away.

 

[Kamille]

OK, Kamille's post about Indonesian taboos (and how expensive it is for a lawyer to handle them in a murder trial) made me wonder this: could HM and TS get married right now? If they did, I wonder what effect it might have on the trial.

I don't know if something like that would be allowed in the US (get married after the trial is underway), but I think there are restrictions on forcing one spouse to testify against another in at least some jurisdictions.

I'm guessing not, or given the cost and difficulty of dealing with these taboos, perhaps Soenardi could have pulled strings to get HM and TS legally wed even while they are behind bars.

I wonder if he told her about the importance of the taboos - perhaps that's where she and TS got the idea to legitimize their relationship with their made-to-order string rings. I think that would impress HM - here's this local attorney known for being expensive but good when it comes to getting foreigners off. First thing he does is offer her a piece of advice that, as I'm sure he would point out, was local advice that Elkin and Flavia hadn't given her. It's possible that HM really doesn't know bribes are involved.

After all, she seemed to think her rapper-boy -wannabe was so street tough he might have a hitman on speed-dial...

Here's some info with regards to marriage in Indonesia. Can't see why they couldn't. Might be something they consider? I wonder who is in possession of all their ID though? And would HM really want to be dealing with a marriage to muddy the waters of her inheritance? Who is going to draft up prenups and such? She appears to be acting on behalf of herself only and only if a marriage would increase her chance of getting off would she consider it I think. Don't think she cares much about what happens to TS in the long run as long as she gets herself out of there ASAP. And the last thing she needs is to be tied to that loser once she gets back to the U.S. after her super special lawyer gets her a slap on the wrist right?

By the way, how does the taboo of being an unwed mother affect the workload of her attorney anyway? I think those comments were made to William Wiese by HM's lawyer because he thinks we're all stupid and can be fleeced by underhanded third world crooked lawyers.

MOO

http://www.baliguide.com/baliwedding.html

 

[Kamille]

Judge Cohen approves Ary Soenardi – SunTimes Update, Part 1

The Jon Seidel story in the Sun-Times, which I linked to earlier today, has been changed considerably, even though there is no acknowledgement of this on the webpage and even though it still bears the posting time of 11:52 a.m.

Here are some excerpts from the new version, none of which were in the story at the time I posted the original link, except the first quotation, which is an expansion of what Seidel originally wrote:

“She is definitely within his [Soenardi’s] control,” Mackoff said. “She refuses to have any other attorney than Ary Soenardi. And she will not accept any other attorney at this point.”

So Cohen said, “she’s got him.” … “We can’t protect people from themselves,” Cohen said.

Mackoff and the other lawyers broached the idea in court Tuesday of retrieving Mack from Indonesia so she could stand trial in the United States. But Cohen called that “magical thinking.”

“I don’t have a right to order that,” Cohen said.

But he did have questions about Mack’s deal with Soenardi.

“What’s the contract between the client and this attorney who’s never tried a murder case before in his life?” Cohen said.​

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news-ch...paid-trust-fund-murder-defendant-heather-mack

I realize Mackoff is an oldster (my guess: born circa 1932), but the very idea that Heather could be “retrieved” from Indonesia to stand trial instead in the U.S. is utterly demented. I am shocked that any of those attorneys would say such thing in open court.

It’s clear that Judge Cohen thinks that Soenardi is a poor choice for Heather because Soenardi hasn’t previously tried a murder case. He really is completely unconcerned about bribery and actually worries that Heather doesn’t know what she is doing.

Heather knows exactly what she’s doing.

Now imagine being Sheila's family sitting in court listening to these out of touch bozos and knowing that they just gave her a pass to move forward with the bribe. And knowing that she will not be held accountable for her mother's death and will be returning to the U.S. a free and wealthy young woman in the very near future if you ask me.

What's the penalty for helping after the fact? 9 months? How many has she served? 5? :notgood:

Why is it that everyone but these astute legal minds can see exactly what is going on?

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Judge Cohen approves Ary Soenardi – SunTimes Update, Part 2

A few less important items from the Jon Seidel story in the Sun-Times. Again none of this was in the story at the time I posted the original link:

Vanessa Favia, a lawyer representing the unborn child, told reporters Tuesday that … she spoke to Mack by phone after court. She said Mack is “well” and grateful for the judge’s ruling. Michael Elkin, who has also represented Mack, said she maintains her innocence.

“I ask that the public again reserve their judgment until a verdict is entered,” Elkin said.​

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news-ch...paid-trust-fund-murder-defendant-heather-mack

Elkin is like an annoying rash: he won’t go away.

Okay so we know she didn't can Favia. Of course not, she needs her to make sure she gets "stuff" for the baby, including her mother's money even if there is a conviction. And it looks like Elkin just referred this financial argument to a more experienced attorney because he failed in his dealings with WW. I guess he'll be back on the SWM Estate payroll in no time.

By the way, how do these lawyers have such easy access to HM via phone? They have her contraband phone number in prison? Can't believe the U.S. consulate is accommodating all this access, which is who I understand would be doing this.
MOO

 

[Curious Me]

I'm keeping up on all your posts. Sulking over the latest here, and the circus over at the Arias trial. No energy to voice my outrage today.

To quote Kamille, "Why is it that everyone but these astute legal minds can see exactly what is going on?" :yes:

Quoting Orange Tabby, "Elkin is like an annoying rash: he won’t go away." :yes:

Heather maintains her innocence, but it takes daily feeding and lots of money to pay people off.

Sulking. :sigh: To sulk is to be angry or upset about something and to refuse to discuss it with other people. That's me for now.

 

[Kamille]

I'm keeping up on all your posts. Sulking over the latest here, and the circus over at the Arias trial. No energy to voice my outrage today.

To quote Kamille, "Why is it that everyone but these astute legal minds can see exactly what is going on?" :yes:

Quoting Orange Tabby, "Elkin is like an annoying rash: he won’t go away." :yes:

Heather maintains her innocence, but it takes daily feeding and lots of money to pay people off.

Sulking. :sigh: To sulk is to be angry or upset about something and to refuse to discuss it with other people. That's me for now.

Hey Curious Me :seeya:

I sat through that BS over on the Arias trial today too. Between that and this, it did seem to be a terrible day for victim justice. I think my blood pressure went through the roof. I'm having a hard time figuring out what judges are thinking these days. :notgood:

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Forgot to ask, how many people here purchase $560 US a month worth of groceries for just themselves here in North America or in Australia? In what reality is that a reasonable amount to be sending to a person in prison in a third world country for "food". So we can only assume it's for the person who was already hired and being paid by Favia and Elkin to bring her food. Again that seems excessive to be paying a person in Bali when the minimum monthly wage is $116 US. Anyway... I guess the money covers the food plus their delivery fee and maybe some extra for a salon day once a month to keep her hair and nails nice and pretty? Oh yeah...and the cell phone bill.

MOO