BIG HOLES in the defense theory

[Donjeta]

The prosecution should ask the As if Caylee knew she could not go in the pool without an adult present. It seems she would. She would apparently always wake up GA to go, I would assume she would try to wake him or KC up if they were both hom. I highly doubt that child wouldn't know better than to try to go in the pool WITHOUT a life jacket, which CA made clear that she always puts its on before she goes swimming.

In my experience unsupervised two year olds frequently do things they should know better, but it is highly unlikely that she put duct tape over her mouth and then drowned.

 

[Mosby]

I still don't understand why it benefits Casey's defense to say Caylee's body was moved. Why do they care if George put her in the woods or Roy Kronk did, as long as it wasn't Casey?

That's what has stymied me as well. The only thing I can figure is that they still want to argue that it was put there while she was in jail. But don't know what they think it will do for the defense. Maybe just to further bolster their outrageous claim of GA's involvement? Really far fetched and I don't think the jury will buy it.

 

[DaughterAlice]

I still don't understand why it benefits Casey's defense to say Caylee's body was moved. Why do they care if George put her in the woods or Roy Kronk did, as long as it wasn't Casey?

I also find myself going back to this question. The DT is already making GA to be a villan, so why not go all the way? Is it because they already tried to drag RK through the mud & now they have to finish the job?

For me, and for many it seems, the biggest gaping hole of all is: what happened after KC held Caylee in her arms crying (while GA yelled at her) and before RK suposedly took the remains to hide them in the woods? Does JB plan to fill in those details at some point? Or does he really expect the jury to completely ignore that issue & move on? I'm sure KC expects them to ignore it; she's watch her family dismiss issues for years.

I will say something though . . . since I've already spoiled my name around here a little bit by saying "yes, I think there IS the possibility of sexual abuse of KC by GA, but I don't buy any of the DT story regarding Caylee's death." I think it's possible that GA knew about Caylee's death from early on. I doubt he was involved in it. But he knew, or suspected. I keep going back to him talking about kidnappers, and how he had people watching them, and he knew where they were, and they were going to have Caylee back soon. Yada, yada, yada. Pretty big lies. Do you remember that?

 

[SadToo]

This is not a big hole, per se, but JB made a big deal about how would George KNOW to bring gas cans to the tow-yard? How did he KNOW the car was out of gas? Well, for starters, the tow-yard empties the gas tanks when the vehicles come in. At least that was the policy when my car was stolen and then recovered in San Jose in 2008. They said it was for safety reasons. Maybe so. Or maybe they just say that so they can get free gas. Whatever the REAL reason is, that's what they DO. I had to use a gas can to put gas in my car when I got it back.

George used to work in a Stolen Car unit when he was a police officer in Ohio; he specifically mentioned that on the stand. So if that is standard policy for tow-yards, George would have easily known that tidbit. It may even be on the official notice or if he called the tow-yard about it, someone may have mentioned it to him (they didn't mention it to ME until I asked why there was no gas in my car, because the police had told me the tank was still 3/4 full when they found it).

It's a red-herring by JB to try to make George look like he's part of a set-up.

Yes. But maybe he brought gas simply because it was part of iCA's pattern of irresponsible behavior to run out of gas on a regular basis. She had probably done it before. CA and GA just continued to bail her out. They should have thrown her out on her *advertiser censored* and taken custody of that poor baby.

 

[DaughterAlice]

Yes. But maybe he brought gas simply because it was part of iCA's pattern of irresponsible behavior to run out of gas on a regular basis. She had probably done it before. CA and GA just continued to bail her out. They should have thrown her out on her *advertiser censored* and taken custody of that poor baby.

I could have sworn there was an interview w/LE where he said pretty much that exactly. He said he brought the cans because she was always running out of gas, and he suspected that as much had happened this time as well. I find that believeable, sensible even. JB can't "shock" me over the fact that GA brought gas cans to the tow yard.

 

[CuriousDi]

Yes. But maybe he brought gas simply because it was part of iCA's pattern of irresponsible behavior to run out of gas on a regular basis. She had probably done it before. CA and GA just continued to bail her out. They should have thrown her out on her *advertiser censored* and taken custody of that poor baby.

Irresponsible behavior doesn't make it a shoe-in for a grandparent to take custody of a grandchild. I'm a grandparent that eventually did get custody and finally adopted two of my grands. My daughter reminds me so much of ICA that it is hard for me to even watch this trial, and we are blessed and lucky that our grandkids survived and are still in our lives today. I have seriously considered that, just like us, the A's put up with a whole lot of carp from their daughter in order to keep the little Caylee in their home/lives where they could do their best to make sure her needs were met. It is very difficult for a grandparent to get custody of a grandchild unless the parent actually abandons them or causes them physical harm in some way.

Diana

 

[Tricksy]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but on top of all the gaping holes that other people have mentioned, one of my first thoughts was:

If, as Baez said that ICA and GA noticed Caylee missing in the early hours and found her body after frantically searching for her and calling her and GA allegedly ended up screaming and shouting at ICA when he had Caylee in his arms...

I know other people said well didn't the neighbours overhear this? My first thought was, if it was the early hours of the morning as JB said, then where was CA?

There is no way she would have slept through a frantic search by ICA and GA and GA shouting at ICA as he cradled Caylee in his arms. That house is too compact. I don't think she could have slept through that.

This is just another part of JB's story that doesn't add up IMHO.

Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but this has been in the back of my mind since last Tuesday and I have read so many posts since then, that I am getting information overload! So I could well have missed this being mentioned.

I'm sure Baez will say that this happened after CA went to work. But in his opening speech I thought he said that this happened in the early hours?

 

[spartanmom]

I haven't gone back to look, but, did the camera happen to pan over to GA & CA when Baez made this account in his opening statement? I think I read somewhere on here that GA & CA didn't know until then that GA was involved in the death, I would have loved to seen their reactions when he said this in the courtroom. I know I would have been outraged if I were accused of something like this and didn't do it.

 

[fifteen89]

I was replying to a post in another thread and when I clicked 'submit' the thread was closed. If this doesn't deserve it's own thread, mods feel free to move it where you think it belongs.

post #624 here http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137947&page=25

Originally posted by Donjeta
Realistically, what's gonna happen if you call 911 and say the police need to come quickly, your car trunk smells like death? You say that you took away a bag of rotting garbage but you insist that the smell isn't caused by the rotting garbage, somebody died in there.

I don't think they'd come running to do forensic tests unless you also report a missing person at the same time. I think a lot of dispatchers would just conclude that the caller smelled extremely foul stinking garbage and went a bit hysterical.

I don't know what the dispatcher would do but if someone on the police force is physically standing next to the car and recognizes the smell of human composition in the trunk of the car......I would certainly hope that it would pique their interest enough to ask a few questions, impound the car, find out who the car belongs to, who had possession of the car, where the car has been recently, if anyone connected to that person is missing or deceased.....and begin an investigation.

They all say it's a smell like no other and one you never forget. It would seem to me that there's only one way the smell of human decomposition would be found in the trunk of a car. Whether the body is physically there at the time you are smelling it or not, a dead body was there at some point.

And I guess that brings me back to both George and the tow yard guy saying they recognized the smell of human decomposition in that trunk, they both said the smell was not caused by the bag of garbage in the trunk.....and yet neither of them called police. I'm not accusing them of anything or saying they moved the body or did anything at all, but yeah, that still bothers me that they didn't make a call.

 

[Broderick]

I think both were at the point of looking in the trunk, satisfied for the moment. Denial runs strong without verification.

 

[Pink Panther]

Don't forget that they DID call 911 that night after they had located KC and realized that Caylee wasn't with her. SB called the next morning.

moo

 

[LCoastMom]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but on top of all the gaping holes that other people have mentioned, one of my first thoughts was:

If, as Baez said that ICA and GA noticed Caylee missing in the early hours and found her body after frantically searching for her and calling her and GA allegedly ended up screaming and shouting at ICA when he had Caylee in his arms...

I know other people said well didn't the neighbours overhear this? My first thought was, if it was the early hours of the morning as JB said, then where was CA?

There is no way she would have slept through a frantic search by ICA and GA and GA shouting at ICA as he cradled Caylee in his arms. That house is too compact. I don't think she could have slept through that.

This is just another part of JB's story that doesn't add up IMHO.

Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but this has been in the back of my mind since last Tuesday and I have read so many posts since then, that I am getting information overload! So I could well have missed this being mentioned.

I'm sure Baez will say that this happened after CA went to work. But in his opening speech I thought he said that this happened in the early hours?

CA went to work at 730 on Monday June 16th - it was her turn to pull the early shift.

 

[LCoastMom]

My first thought, why all the screaming "Where's Caylee?" Wouldn't it be more reasonable that even a hot head (as the DT wants the jury to believe GA to be) may walk into a room expecting to see his granddaughter then ask in a normal tone "Hey, Case - where's Caylee?" then they proceed to search for her?

To those thinking the "nosey neighbor" would have heard the commotion - he was still on vacation 6/16, but had GA found "His Caylee" dead in that pool - everyone else in the neighborhood would have heard his cries...

THREE PIECES OF DUCT TAPE! I cannot get past this and noticed on that visual aid that JB used, the tape would have been over her eyes, not her mouth - just wait until the jury sees the actual photograph of the real placement of the tape and the 4th piece with fringe hairs.

The stain in the trunk showing Caylee's arms pulled back with a mark the exact size of the duct tape - where exactly did this stain come from while GA and RK had control of Caylee's little body?

Did I miss JB giving a reason for all that duct tape?

 

[shelbar53]

I just read a comment on another thread. {Baez .. just lost the trial post 534 by dkatie mom}.
She had an excellent point. Baez said they went out the front door...which was triple locked. How could Caylee go out that door?

Another example that Baez did not do his homework researching the details.

Don't the lawyers sit around and review the OS and try to poke holes in it and then fine tune it before going before the entire world for to hear?

All of us on WS could find serious errors just while listenting to it, didnt need to research anything, we just know the case inside out, the way her defense SHOULD have known the case.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I think both were at the point of looking in the trunk, satisfied for the moment. Denial runs strong without verification.

I think this is an excellent point.

I've never smelled the stench of human decompostion, but I've smelled large animals decomposing in the heat. It's horrific...lots of gagging. Once that animal was removed (mind you, this was outside), the smell certainly did linger, but nothing like being right up on the carcass. If I were to smell that lingering odor after the carcass had been removed, would I think it could maybe be garbage? I dunno. Decomposing flesh has a sweet, sickly smell to it...it's distinctive, imo. If you blindfolded me and gave me rotting garbage to sniff and a rotting animal to sniff, I could absolutely tell you which was which. But if you asked me to sniff, say a blanket that had come in contact with garbage, and a blanket that had come in contact with a rotting animal carcass, I might well second guess myself. I might think...well, this blanket smells like it COULD have come in contact with a rotting animal carcass...then again, there could have been something in the garbage that has an odor alot like a rotting carcass. A raw chicken...juice from a roast that had gone bad, etc. etc. What I'm trying to say, is that, in the absence of an actual animal carcass to verify in my mind exactly what I was smelling, I think I could well talk myself into thinking it was something other than a rotting animal carcass smell.

Does that make sense?

Now, if I knew the smell of a decomposing human body, thought I was going to find exactly that when I opened the trunk of my husband's car, and found nothing inside but a bag of garbage...I think my first inclination would be to laugh at myself. "Whew, Kat! And you thought there was going to be a body in here! Idiot!" I think that is probably the kind of horrific scenario you are happy to talk yourself out of in light of the fact that you have no confirmation.

JMO

ETA: I know this is kind of a ridiculous post, but I hope you guys can see what I'm getting at.

 

[MissJames]

I was replying to a post in another thread and when I clicked 'submit' the thread was closed. If this doesn't deserve it's own thread, mods feel free to move it where you think it belongs.

post #624 here http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137947&page=25

I don't know what the dispatcher would do but if someone on the police force is physically standing next to the car and recognizes the smell of human composition in the trunk of the car......I would certainly hope that it would pique their interest enough to ask a few questions, impound the car, find out who the car belongs to, who had possession of the car, where the car has been recently, if anyone connected to that person is missing or deceased.....and begin an investigation.

They all say it's a smell like no other and one you never forget. It would seem to me that there's only one way the smell of human decomposition would be found in the trunk of a car. Whether the body is physically there at the time you are smelling it or not, a dead body was there at some point.

And I guess that brings me back to both George and the tow yard guy saying they recognized the smell of human decomposition in that trunk, they both said the smell was not caused by the bag of garbage in the trunk.....and yet neither of them called police. I'm not accusing them of anything or saying they moved the body or did anything at all, but yeah, that still bothers me that they didn't make a call.

At this time GA new ICA had been lying and hiding.He knew this was trouble,but was not sure what that was.Before starting down a path of no return,I think he wanted to assess the situation.He knew ICA was alive because CA had been talking to her. This was bigger trouble than they ever imagined encountering with ICA. I know I would have been hoping the car had been stolen or lent to someone else ,and they were responsible.
He felt he and Cindy needed to sort this out before siccing the cops on ICA.

 

[Meemom]

I think both were at the point of looking in the trunk, satisfied for the moment. Denial runs strong without verification.

Tow yard guy had no obligation to get in the mix once the A's picked up the car. Would he have called LE upon opening the car, if the car had not been picked up and the yard took possession? Maybe. I'm sure he's seen, smelled weirder things in stored cars; for all he knew, that car may have been bought used from an estate and always had that smell when closed up for a while. (it definately is a unique odor that NEVER goes away-dealt with a house that was closed up with a DB in it for 3 weeks- then closed up for 6 monthes with the smell...six monthes later, after cleaning, painting, etc. there was still a hint of it if the house was closed up for a day or two). It was business to him, nothing personal, so why get involved?

GA may have recognized the smell, but when he saw the trunk empty, except for the garbage bag, I believe he had a normal human reaction- there's a reasonable explaination for the smell that doesn't involve the death of a loved one-haybe he hoped he was mistaken about the smell. Even if that "what if" nagging thought stayed in his mind, I'm sure CA reassured him that she had been speaking to ICA all along, ICA says Caylee is fine, etc, etc. (More very human denial of what could be). After seeing CA's very forceful personality these past years, I'm sure she took her usual "I'll handle this, I'll get to the bottom of this. I'll deal with ICA" stance and GA as usual, went along. I'm sure they wanted to get an explaination from ICA first. They seem to have always felt they should handle everything internally in the family unit, calling in LE would have been a last resort......and as we saw, it was.

Having said all that, would I call LE if I smelled decomp in a car? I hope I never have to find out. JMO

 

[joypath]

:truce: okay...going out on a limb here BUT I have called LE when there was an abandoned vehicle near our home which is on a cul de sac (dead end for we non real estate people!:floorlaugh. Big deal thinks the LE since once they check the VIN# (yep, I provided it!) no bolo, no "issues" in the computer system on the vehicle and of course, no "rapid" response. DH calls on day 2, ids himself as a retired "Statie" and gives an assessment of the vehicle condition as observable (it was locked, he checked with gloves on!:innocent. Day 3, I'm furious as heck, we are taxpayers and the vehicle is a mess but NOW I'm getting a weak distinctive odor SO I "pull rank" and DEMAND an investigation........long story short, yep the OME "inherited" a new case, and nope, the victim wasn't going to be autopsied by me 'cause I was the complainant!:banghead::banghead::banghead:


PS: before any questions: MOD was homicide, victim from another State, COD was gunshot and TOD was estimated @ 96 hours.

 

[SadToo]

Irresponsible behavior doesn't make it a shoe-in for a grandparent to take custody of a grandchild. I'm a grandparent that eventually did get custody and finally adopted two of my grands. My daughter reminds me so much of ICA that it is hard for me to even watch this trial, and we are blessed and lucky that our grandkids survived and are still in our lives today. I have seriously considered that, just like us, the A's put up with a whole lot of carp from their daughter in order to keep the little Caylee in their home/lives where they could do their best to make sure her needs were met. It is very difficult for a grandparent to get custody of a grandchild unless the parent actually abandons them or causes them physical harm in some way.

Diana

I certainly didn't mean to imply that it would be a "shoo-in" to take custody. I KNOW it's more difficult than that. Our family is dealing with a very similar situation. There are no easy answers. I'm glad it has worked out for you.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

:truce: okay...going out on a limb here BUT I have called LE when there was an abandoned vehicle near our home which is on a cul de sac (dead end for we non real estate people!:floorlaugh. Big deal thinks the LE since once they check the VIN# (yep, I provided it!) no bolo, no "issues" in the computer system on the vehicle and of course, no "rapid" response. DH calls on day 2, ids himself as a retired "Statie" and gives an assessment of the vehicle condition as observable (it was locked, he checked with gloves on!:innocent. Day 3, I'm furious as heck, we are taxpayers and the vehicle is a mess but NOW I'm getting a weak distinctive odor SO I "pull rank" and DEMAND an investigation........long story short, yep the OME "inherited" a new case, and nope, the victim wasn't going to be autopsied by me 'cause I was the complainant!:banghead::banghead::banghead:


PS: before any questions: MOD was homicide, victim from another State, COD was gunshot and TOD was estimated @ 96 hours.

OMGosh, joypath, no wonder this scenario holds a special interest for you. It sure hits a little too close to home, huh?