BIG HOLES in the defense theory

[Tricksy]

CA went to work at 730 on Monday June 16th - it was her turn to pull the early shift.

Thanks.

The way I understood JB's statement was that this happened in the early hours of the morning though?

Would 7:30am be classed as early morning?

My interpretation of early morning or early hours would be up until about 5am.

What do other members think?

I'm sure he said this happened in the early hours though, after first of all saying it happened sometime on that day. He then went on to say it happened in the early hours.

 

[LCoastMom]

Thanks.

The way I understood JB's statement was that this happened in the early hours of the morning though?

Would 7:30am be classed as early morning?

My interpretation of early morning or early hours would be up until about 5am.

What do other members think?

I'm sure he said this happened in the early hours though, after first of all saying it happened sometime on that day. He then went on to say it happened in the early hours.

Ahhh, I was thinking early morning as 9 to 10AM, but I often have insomnia so I consider 5AM as "during the night." Funny how our own experiences color ever the interpretation of a time frame.

To go earlier, I would still think he meant after CA went to work. Had Caylee been up and about, I'm guessing CA would have been aware by an unlocked sliding door, wet pull up removed to use the potty first thing, food/snack/drink left out, bedroom door left open - something that said Caylee had been there.

I did notice while CA said she didn't see Caylee or ICA that morning, unlike her LE interview there was no mention of hearing them breathe from beyond the bedroom door!

 

[katydid23]

Have the DT been reading here. I believe so. Here is their Opening Statement laid out before them, back in early March:


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111391&page=34
Katydid23
03/05/2011
The 31 days of partying is of course the biggest hurdle. But they will try the 'ugly coping' scenario. Her abusive childhood made her fragile and unable to cope with the situation. Her father, who had been abusing her all of her life, took her child, and said "go away, say nothing and I will give her back later."
[Or whatever they come up with...]

Even the dead squirrels texts can be written off as her covering for dad, OR even not knowing what the smell really was. Maybe Dad placed the body in the trunk himself to frame Casey, then buried her soon after. { DEFENSE scenario, NOT my belief.]

All they need is one or two jurors who will buy this theory.


===============================

The thing is the defense does not have to PROVE someone else did it, only that there is a reasonable doubt, that someone else MAY have.

They have to come up with a reason for her not reporting and for the silly nanny stories and the partying.

Accidental death won't help because she was at Blockbuster a few hours later, flirting and smiling.

Stranger abduction doesnt work because she didnt report child missing, and she partied. Also the trunk and the items from home etc.

They were going to set up Jesse Grund but he caught on too quick and protected himself and had alibis. But he would not be the perfect patsy, not like George is.

George is the perfect scapegoat. Kind of creepy, passionate, intense, angry, LE background, access to all of the key crime scene components.

Casey could say she 'partied' because he ordered her to go about her life like nothing happened or he would harm Caylee. She just did what her evil abuser demanded. She is the victim and has been protecting the rest of her family all of this time. Or that is the story anyway.

If they spring this on George once the trial starts he will likely explode, fumble around a bit, and seem kind of guilty, imo.

I predict they will float this scenario out there if they get really desperate.
__________________
I agree. I don't think the jury will buy it, but Baez doesn't have too many defense options. Casey was so blatant and ugly with her behaviors that they need to find an explanation that won't automatically get her the needle.
[
Trying to make HER the victim, and make Daddy the evil perp pedophile may do just that. And then she can get her revenge on him as well. Two birds with one stone.


__________________

I am not overly worried, but I am just a bit.

 

[RR473]

---------------- BEST DEFENSE STRATEGY EVER -------------

Caylee is playing with duct tape. She wraps it around her head and dies while KC is in the bathroom. Upon discovery KC panics and hides the body.

 

[Grammy Jean]

Thanks.

The way I understood JB's statement was that this happened in the early hours of the morning though?

Would 7:30am be classed as early morning?

My interpretation of early morning or early hours would be up until about 5am.

What do other members think?

I'm sure he said this happened in the early hours though, after first of all saying it happened sometime on that day. He then went on to say it happened in the early hours.[/QUOTE
]
I took it to mean he was implying Caylee drowned in the very early morning hours before even Cindy woke up. Of course if any of this were true and Caylee was able to get out the sliding doors to the porch and then out to the pool, I would think those sliding doors would be open. So Cindy would have seen them open of course again IF any of this story was true then wouldn't George and Cassie have noticed the doors open. Why wuld they first be looking in closets etc. The whole story told by JB is ridiculous!!!

 

[fifteen89]

I think both were at the point of looking in the trunk, satisfied for the moment. Denial runs strong without verification.

I'm trying to decide how much denial played a part in this for George. I would think his mind would be racing because they hadn't physically seen Caylee for so long. And I know he had to get to his new job.....

 

[fifteen89]

Don't forget that they DID call 911 that night after they had located KC and realized that Caylee wasn't with her. SB called the next morning.

moo

Good point.

 

[fifteen89]

I think this is an excellent point.

I've never smelled the stench of human decompostion, but I've smelled large animals decomposing in the heat. It's horrific...lots of gagging. Once that animal was removed (mind you, this was outside), the smell certainly did linger, but nothing like being right up on the carcass. If I were to smell that lingering odor after the carcass had been removed, would I think it could maybe be garbage? I dunno. Decomposing flesh has a sweet, sickly smell to it...it's distinctive, imo. If you blindfolded me and gave me rotting garbage to sniff and a rotting animal to sniff, I could absolutely tell you which was which. But if you asked me to sniff, say a blanket that had come in contact with garbage, and a blanket that had come in contact with a rotting animal carcass, I might well second guess myself. I might think...well, this blanket smells like it COULD have come in contact with a rotting animal carcass...then again, there could have been something in the garbage that has an odor alot like a rotting carcass. A raw chicken...juice from a roast that had gone bad, etc. etc. What I'm trying to say, is that, in the absence of an actual animal carcass to verify in my mind exactly what I was smelling, I think I could well talk myself into thinking it was something other than a rotting animal carcass smell.

Does that make sense?

Now, if I knew the smell of a decomposing human body, thought I was going to find exactly that when I opened the trunk of my husband's car, and found nothing inside but a bag of garbage...I think my first inclination would be to laugh at myself. "Whew, Kat! And you thought there was going to be a body in here! Idiot!" I think that is probably the kind of horrific scenario you are happy to talk yourself out of in light of the fact that you have no confirmation.

JMO

ETA: I know this is kind of a ridiculous post, but I hope you guys can see what I'm getting at.

Would it matter if you hadn't seen your husband for a few weeks? Would you check to see if you could find him 'now' before you called yourself an idiot?

 

[fifteen89]

At this time GA new ICA had been lying and hiding.He knew this was trouble,but was not sure what that was.Before starting down a path of no return,I think he wanted to assess the situation.He knew ICA was alive because CA had been talking to her. This was bigger trouble than they ever imagined encountering with ICA. I know I would have been hoping the car had been stolen or lent to someone else ,and they were responsible.
He felt he and Cindy needed to sort this out before siccing the cops on ICA.

I'm trying to figure that into my thinking, too.

 

[fifteen89]

:truce: okay...going out on a limb here BUT I have called LE when there was an abandoned vehicle near our home which is on a cul de sac (dead end for we non real estate people!:floorlaugh. Big deal thinks the LE since once they check the VIN# (yep, I provided it!) no bolo, no "issues" in the computer system on the vehicle and of course, no "rapid" response. DH calls on day 2, ids himself as a retired "Statie" and gives an assessment of the vehicle condition as observable (it was locked, he checked with gloves on!:innocent. Day 3, I'm furious as heck, we are taxpayers and the vehicle is a mess but NOW I'm getting a weak distinctive odor SO I "pull rank" and DEMAND an investigation........long story short, yep the OME "inherited" a new case, and nope, the victim wasn't going to be autopsied by me 'cause I was the complainant!:banghead::banghead::banghead:


PS: before any questions: MOD was homicide, victim from another State, COD was gunshot and TOD was estimated @ 96 hours.

I guess I'm hoping more people would call. Good Lord what a story!!! Did they catch the killer?

 

[katydid23]

]

Thanks.

The way I understood JB's statement was that this happened in the early hours of the morning though?

Would 7:30am be classed as early morning?

My interpretation of early morning or early hours would be up until about 5am.

What do other members think?

I'm sure he said this happened in the early hours though, after first of all saying it happened sometime on that day. He then went on to say it happened in the early hours.[/QUOTE
]
I took it to mean he was implying Caylee drowned in the very early morning hours before even Cindy woke up. Of course if any of this were true and Caylee was able to get out the sliding doors to the porch and then out to the pool, I would think those sliding doors would be open. So Cindy would have seen them open of course again IF any of this story was true then wouldn't George and Cassie have noticed the doors open. Why wuld they first be looking in closets etc. The whole story told by JB is ridiculous!!!

First of all, there is NO way that anything of that magnitude happened without Cindy waking up and being involoved.

Second, IF a tragedy like that had happened, they would know the exact time it occurred. None of this early morning, no, late afternoon, umm, I mean morningtime BS.

How do you catch your kids in an obvious lie? You ask them exactly what time 'it' happened and who else was there...etc etc.

Baez was not able to provide even the most basic answers so far. He could tell us that George forced his wingding into Caseys mouth before school when she was 13, but could NOT narrow down the child's time of death to morning or afternoon?

 

[realdeal]

First of all, there is NO way that anything of that magnitude happened without Cindy waking up and being involoved.

Second, IF a tragedy like that had happened, they would know the exact time it occurred. None of this early morning, no, late afternoon, umm, I mean morningtime BS.

How do you catch your kids in an obvious lie? You ask them exactly what time 'it' happened and who else was there...etc etc.

Baez was not able to provide even the most basic questions so far. He could tell us that George forced his wingding into Caseys mouth before school when she was 13, but could NOT narrow down the child's time of death to morning or afternoon?

This is huge to me! Have any of us ever witnessed the death of a loved one in a traumatic way, and not remembered the general time of day? I have, and I know those details are etched in my mind!
JB wants us to believe that both ICA and GA were there for this "accident", could then go and function at work (GA) and clubbing (ICA) as if all was well, but yet couldn't give a time of day. Uhmmmm riiiiight.

 

[katydid23]

I would like an expert to answer this rather gruesome but important question for us. I know that a child falls to the bottom of the pool initially after drowning. I want to know how long it takes for the body to float to the top. I have always thought it takes quite awhile. But I wonder how long because no body said anyhting about george diving into the pool and going to the bottom to take her out.

 

[cecybeans]

GA being a detective would not have allowed that car to be used as evidence-it would have been burned up, dropped in a canal, or crashed.

GA also would not have left the tape laying around-it would have been long gone.

GA also would not have had the body around the corner from the house.

GA would not have let a sticker from the house to be put on the tape.

Excellent points. In addition to that GA would never have used the same duct tape applied to Caylee's face on those posters. Her body had not been found at that point and he had no clue it would be found with duct tape on it or he would have never used that tape again, certainly not in a public place.

 

[katydid23]

Excellent points. In addition to that GA would never have used the same duct tape applied to Caylee's face on those posters. Her body had not been found at that point and he had no clue it would be found with duct tape on it or he would have never used that tape again, certainly not in a public place.

You are right, obviously. UNLESS, he was trying to frame Casey. And I think that is where this speeding bus is going. Notice how baez emphasized the super secret meeting George had alone with LE, where he talked about the trunk smell. And he used the duct tape on the gas cans and then called LE about them being stolen. Baez is trying to say that George framed Casey for this. imoo

 

[Donjeta]

You are right, obviously. UNLESS, he was trying to frame Casey. And I think that is where this speeding bus is going. Notice how baez emphasized the super secret meeting George had alone with LE, where he talked about the trunk smell. And he used the duct tape on the gas cans and then called LE about them being stolen. Baez is trying to say that George framed Casey for this. imoo

If that's where they're going, there's another hole right there IMO. Why? Why would GA try to frame Casey for murder? I'm not seeing a motive. How does he benefit from having Casey in jail and having the whole family and himself drawn through the mud?

And how did he think it up so fast? I mean, Caylee drowns all of a sudden and in that state of shock, in a split second he's made up his mind to frame Casey for murder and formed a plan how to make her incriminate herself? I don't think so.

 

[RR473]

I would like an expert to answer this rather gruesome but important question for us. I know that a child falls to the bottom of the pool initially after drowning. I want to know how long it takes for the body to float to the top. I have always thought it takes quite awhile. But I wonder how long because no body said anyhting about george diving into the pool and going to the bottom to take her out.

You can google that (risky). The answer should be there.

 

[MissJames]

Irresponsible behavior doesn't make it a shoe-in for a grandparent to take custody of a grandchild. I'm a grandparent that eventually did get custody and finally adopted two of my grands. My daughter reminds me so much of ICA that it is hard for me to even watch this trial, and we are blessed and lucky that our grandkids survived and are still in our lives today. I have seriously considered that, just like us, the A's put up with a whole lot of carp from their daughter in order to keep the little Caylee in their home/lives where they could do their best to make sure her needs were met. It is very difficult for a grandparent to get custody of a grandchild unless the parent actually abandons them or causes them physical harm in some way.

Diana

:seeya:Hi CuriousDi

I'm so glad you have your grandkids and I appreciate the experience and knowledge you are willing to share.
There are so many layers to this story and to this family.

 

[MissJames]

You can google that (risky). The answer should be there.

I posted this last night and will look for more.

http://www.poseidon-tech.com/us/statistics.html

Poseidon Technologies
Drowning Fact Sheet
Drowning problem Drowning facts and drowning statistics Lifeguarding Challenges Stages of a drowning
Home page
Poseidon description, technology overview, installation and service, expert opinions
Aquatic safety: the drowning problem, drowning facts, statistics




U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention


American Academy of Pediatrics

19% of drowning deaths involving children occur in public pools with certified lifeguards present.
Drowning Prevention Foundation

A swimming pool is 14 times more likely than a motor vehicle to be involved in the death of a child age 4 and under.
Orange County California Fire Authority

Children under five and adolescents between the ages of 15-24 have the highest drowning rates.
U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

An estimated 5,000 children ages 14 and under are hospitalized due to unintentional drowning-related incidents each year; 15 percent die in the hospital and as many as 20 percent suffer severe, permanent neurological disability.

National Safety Council

Of all preschoolers who drown, 70 percent are in the care of one or both parents at the time of the drowning and 75 percent are missing from sight for five minutes or less.

Orange County, CA, Fire Authority

The majority of children who survive (92 percent) are discovered within two minutes following submersion, and most children who die (86 percent) are found after 10 minutes. Nearly all who require cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) die or are left with severe brain injury.

National Safe Kids Campaign




© MG International

 

[Fluffy Puppy]

You are right, obviously. UNLESS, he was trying to frame Casey. And I think that is where this speeding bus is going. Notice how baez emphasized the super secret meeting George had alone with LE, where he talked about the trunk smell. And he used the duct tape on the gas cans and then called LE about them being stolen. Baez is trying to say that George framed Casey for this. imoo

But WHY would he frame her? If an accident, he didn't do anything. There is no logic to it.

There are four huge holes, to me, all problematic when trying to tie together accident/abuse/lying:
1) Why take three years to report an accident and instead face first degree murder charges?
2) Why cover up an accident by hiding a body? No reason given there. It is not like Cindy wasn't going to notice Caylee was missing.
3) Why frame her: you frame someone when you want them to get the blame, and Baez put no reason out there for George wanting Casey convicted of murder.
4) Although wildly provoking, Baez just cannot tie abuse to any element of this crime.