Black Mark On Her Mandible

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It appeared in the autopsy photos that she was found in an odd position, not straight as a board. Did I miss in the past 10 yrs that she was found laid out straight as a board? I try not to look at the autopsy photos too much, and I will admit that I have not read any of the books.
 
She was ramrod straight, from what I can gather.

Birdie, you HAVEN'T read the books?! Oh, boy!
 
No, I haven't read the books, I am waaaaay behind on my reading. I know, I am a bad sleuth. But I just started watching this case in earnest a few weeks before Karr was paraded out.

I just get my info from the web for right now.

I DID pay off my library fines LOL and the books are on my list.
 
Are the marks, levidity? If so, from where? Is movement from the dryer to wine cellar consistant with degree of rigor, at various times during that morning? Not that this hasn't been discussed a million times over during the past number of years; but I thought I would re-visit the issue of levidity and rigor, with respect to possible causes of these weird marks. Not much else going on, so I indulged in my wind-bag version.
-
This is a long winded one...sorry...

If we state the time at which JR/PR went to bed (est. 10:45pm); the time at which PR did not see JBR in her bed (at 5:45am on Dec. 26); when the 911 call was made at 5:52am (approx. 6am); and the time the body was "discovered" by JR, we get a loose timeline in which to insert the estimates for levidity and rigor:

I am reminding myself that the time interval from 10:45pm 12/25 to 6am on 12/26 - is approx. 7 hours. IMHO, JBR's body would not have been in full rigor, when the 911 call was made. Not even close. If we dare to presume, that JBR was not killed immediately upon the family arriving home from the Whites, JBR would have been dead for an even shorter interval of time when the 911 call was made, and the onset of advanced rigor would have occured even later that day. Estimate a time of death, and count forward approx. 13 hours for an estimated onset of advanced rigor (+4).

IMO, JBR's body could have been moved quite easily, from one place to another, during these morning hours before and after the 911 call was made, and subsequent search for JBR was initiated.

1. JBR eats pineapple (at Xo'clock, presumably after 10pm 12/25)
2. JBR is dead (happened bet. 12/25/1996 at 10pm and 12/26/1996 at 5:52p.m.
3.. The body is hidden (from other family members) until the perp(s) figured out what to do,
4. Onset of levidity (in minutes - ranging from 15 to 20 minutes, to 3 hours after death. Maximum levidity occurs within 6-12 hours)
5. Onset of rigor (est. to begin in about 3 to 4 hours after death); and
6. Discovery of the body (est. between 11:00 am and 1:00 pm on Dec. 26, by JR. JR said "I tried to untie her hands and arms. She was stiff).
7. Advanced/full rigor est. to occur in about 10 to 13 hours after death).

Excerpt from Coroner's report:

"There is dorsal 3+ to 4+ livor mortis which is nonblanching. Livor mortis is also present on the right side of the face. At the time of the initiation of the autopsy there is mild 1 to 2+ rigor mortis of the elbows and shoulders with more advanced 2 to 3+ rigor mortis of the joints of the lower extremities".

The 1 to 3 or 4 point scale, is used to describe the degree of livor and rigor. I wish the coroner had been more descriptive of rigor. If he is using a 4 point scale, I am left to presume that the body was not in a state of advanced/full rigor (4+). Are we left to interpret that at after 8:20pm, the body is not yet in an advanced state of rigor? Odd. Would any arm chair forensic pathologist, care to jump in here, and save me from myself? ;]

Given the "body temporarily hidden in the dryer" scenario:
Onset of levidity Immediately after death to 4 hours after death: Body Hidden In the Dryer
It would be possible, for the body to have been put in the dryer, to hide it, until "someone/they" figured out what to do. The dryer was reported to be quite large, more like a larger/heavy duty model, rather than a little home-use model. They would have had until 5:45am to decide what to do. The time during which the body was in the dryer drum, might account for the weird circular marks on the face and back (remember the suggestion that JBR's face and back had pressure contact with the holes in the dryer drum), due to the onset of levidity. Visualize the many little circular air holes, on the walls of the dryer drum. It may also account for the transfer of various clothes/robe/towel fibers to the body and clothes. The very act of picking up the child, and moving it to the dryer, would have probably have caused additional transfer of fibers. Onset of rigor may or may not have begun towards the end of this time interval; but likely not to the extent that the joints could not be removed from the dryer, and re-positioned somewhere else rather easily. The "13 Hour Advanced Rigor" clock starts ticking.

JBR may have had the ligature, tape etc., affixed to her body, and all the other evidence associated with her body ( the garrote, underwear) already wrapped up with her, in the dryer, at some point.

IMO, considering the coroner's report of the degree of rigor of the upper/lower extremities, a "person" could easily move the body from the dryer, to the wine cellar, sometime after 11:00am - to speed up the discovery of the body.


Onset of Rigor, 3 to 4 hours after death - up to 10/13 hours after death:
Body moved from the dryer to a location in the cellar.

So a plan is in place, and the body could be either left in the dryer for eventual "discovery" or, moved to the cellar just prior to JR/FW's search in the home, that was conducted sometime after 11am. The accessories", such as the garrote, are positioned. Possibly, some slight to moderate signs of rigor were possibly present, however, the body could have been moved easily. Possibly, secondary levidity progressed.

The person or persons might have had perhaps 6 or so more hours, during which they could easily re-position the body, to some degree (if one agrees that full rigor onset occurs within about 10 to 13 hours after death). Some pathologists state that onset of rigor in the proximal joints of the elbows, knees, hips is last to occur. This somewhat contradicts the degree of rigor observed by the coroner, in the lower extremities vs. the arms, as reported by the coroner.

The body may have been left in the wine cellar location until it was discovered sometime after 11:00 am on Dec. 26) - or - as some have speculated, it was moved from one location (e.g. the dryer) to the wine cellar just prior to the ll:00 am "search around the house". This would be consistant with the speculation that JR was said to have wandered off at some point; and transcripts in which JR indicates that he shut a window in the train room at about 10:00am. FW was said to "have already seen the window in the train room earlier", when JR showed FW the broken window. This suggests that prior to the 11:00 am house search, both of these men had separately, been down in the cellar area, and there was no body to be seen. If the body was "re-located to the wine cellar", after the 911 call was made, yet prior to the 11am house search, the general position of the body might not have changed much, and the "accessories" could simply have been gathered up, and quickly moved with the body.

Advanced Rigor: 10 to 13 hours after death - In the Wine Cellar?
The body could have been moved directly to this spot (from the temporary hiding place in the dryer), prior to the 911 call - or it may have been "re-located" to this spot (as some have speculated) after no one was able to "find" the body in the initial search. This latter speculation arose from the suggestion that FW indicated he had already checked the wine cellar and found - no body. Some time after 11am, JR checked the wine cellar again, and found the child's body. Not sure if this factoid about FW actually checking the wine cellar is based on an interview with FW, or if it is conjecture.

December 26, 8PM:
The coroner arrived at the house. At 8:20PM, the coroner observed the body.

Then there are the wild cards.
Onset of rigor is delayed in asphyxial deaths, notably by hanging or carbon monoxide poisoning, and also when death has been immediately preceded by severe hemorage. (Ref: Polsesn, et al., Essentials of Forensic Medicine, 4th Ed.). If this was the case, the individual(s) would have had even more time, in which to figure out what to do, and how/where to position JBR's body - as the time for full rigor may have been delayed. This fact may explain why JBR's upper extremities are not in +4 rigor after 8:20pm on the night Dec. 26. Hell, the body could have been moved a few times, until "they" figured out what to do.

**Again, the scenario in which the body is hidden in the dryer, is a reference to the theory posted by Darlene733510, on another thread.
 
Oh my goodness... if her body was totally wrapped in the blanket and someone had opened the dryer...who knows if they would have even realized there was a body in an industrial size dryer... Maybe other towels etc were in it as well...
 
I don't buy that business about the dryer, at least, not that she was in it for a length of time.
 
Regarding Patsy's rings causing the abrasions found on JonBenet's back and mandible, this post theorizes that Patsy hugged JonBenet and the rings on her fingers caused them. The glitch is that Patsy's rings would need to be turned toward the palm.

Hi lovebites:) When I see a question about JBR's marks on her body, I always find it easier to just quote myself than to re-explain my theory. Plus, I am just plain lazy these days, lol :D . Here you go:

WolfmarsGirl Stun Gun? Not!



Member since: 12/4/02 -

?

I have a theory about the "stun gun" marks. First of

all, does anyone know if Patsy wore any rings on a

regular basis, or if she had any on at the White's

party? I'll get back to that thought in a moment.



Anyway, as peculiar as this sounds, I had a dream last

night about JB. Ok, so I am doped up on cold medicine,

so give me a little bit of room here, lol.



Basically, in the dream, I was holding JB, in a way I

often hold my own little girl. It was just a flash of

a second in my dream, but the whole thing even made

sense in the morning.



So, I tried the 'dream hold' on my daughter today.

Yes, she thinks I am nutty, lol, but I figured that a

good hug between us is welcomed at any time, no matter

what my motive.



I sat on the floor with my child in my lap, with her

legs both hanging over my left leg. She was kind of

sitting up, laying her weight on her left hip, facing

me. I held her head in my right hand and the fingers

on my right hand ended up on her right cheek and/or or

on her neck. So, I gave her a kiss on the nose, lol...



My left arm was over her right side and my left hand

ended up, quite naturally, on the lower, left side of

her back.



This is typically how I hold her when I 'rock' my

great-big baby girl, or when I carry her quickly in a

rain-storm (when walking would be too slow), or any

other time I have to move her in a hurry and I want to

get a good grip on her and hold her close at the same

time.



Try it with your own child. Make sure his or her face

is close to your face (and don't forget the kiss on

the nose.) This hug kind of looks like holding a

guitar.



Now, back to Patsy's rings (or not). Now, if PR

accidentally killed (or thought she killed) JB, there

would have been a lot of squeezing and rocking with

mother and child in this exact position. If PR was

wearing two or more rings on each hand AND she held,

and squeezed JB in this manner, (a little too hard out

of grief and overwhelming anguish) would those rings

leave marks similar to the "stun gun" marks? I think

so.



The positioning of where a grown-up's fingers would

land on a child of JB's size match up perfectly to

where the marks were found on her body. AND, the

distance between the marks (within each set of marks)

is just about the distance between two adult fingers.



Of course, the rings would most likely have been on

backward. That is the only problem I have with this

theory. However, as I am typing, two of my rings are

reversed and they swing around constantly.



I even thought about trying this trick with four

smiley-faced-stamper rings. But, since I don't want my

poor little girl to be too severely emotionally

scarred by my obsessive sleuthing, lol, I didn't

conduct this further experiment.


I did conduct an additional 'experiment.' I am

posting a link to marks I made on the smooth part of

my right hand. I squeezed my right hand with my left

hand. I had two, round-cut rings on my left hand.

Both rings are mounted with four-prongs.


Please see the link below:


http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html


With very little effort, I was able to reproduce the

exact markings I see on the autopsy photos of Jonbenet

Ramsey.


In addition, the marks fell approximately 3.5

centimeters apart.



As I outlined in my forum post, the angle of the marks

on Jonbenet (from the autopsy photos) line up in an

identical pattern and angle to where an adult's

fingers would rest if that adult was holding a child

as I described. It is crucial to note that this is a

very common position for a parent (typically a mom) to

hold and/or rock their small child.


The positions are the same. The markings made by me

are nearly identical to the marks on Jonbenet's body.


One more piece of evidence had occurred to me: Patsy

Ramsey wore, at one point, a large ring on the 2nd

finger of her right hand. This larger ring would fall into the position of the large mark on Jonbenet's cheek, if Patsy did, in fact, hold and squeeze the child prior to death.


Once again:

*The positions of the marks can be explained, within a

fraction of an inch.

*The distance between two marks of either pair of

marks can be explained.

*The angle of the marks (extremely important!) can be

explained.

*The 'weapon' or cause of the marks can be explained.

* If Patsy's rings made the marks, then evidence, or

at least witnesses can testify to their existence.

*Both the occurrence of the marks and the location of

the marks can be easily re-created in any court room.

* This theory explains why 'stun gun' marks are NOT

equidistant (as they would be expected to be) on the

body of Jonbenet.


New info:

I was looking over the autopsy photos of JBR at ACandyRose and I noticed a close-up of her face and the mark on her face.

Inside of the large mark, I could see a definite, clear pattern. So, I pulled up the picture of Patsy's ring and I saw a pattern ON the ring that matched, in my opinion, exactly to the pattern in abrasion.

The Patsy photo is not very clear, so I tried to blow it up for a better look. The enlargement only distorts the photo. However, I can tell the ring is a cluster ring with the stones forming somewhat of an 'x' pattern (just like the pattern in the abrasion).

I found a similar ring on another website and I took out the colors and made a negative image of the ring.

When I put the adjusted photo of JBR's abrasion and the adjusted photo of the cluster ring (not Patsy's but close), the patterns matched!

So, in the link you will see my 'hand' experiment, plus the ring, JBR's face mark and the patterns I see in both.

My idea is this: If we can find the ring Patsy had on her right hand on the night of the murder and we have a clear photo of the abrasion on JBR's cheek in evidence somewhere (I hope), then LE can match the ring to the abrasion.

If the patterns line up (and I think they will), then the ring print is just about as good as a fingerprint, IMO.

Thanks for listening...Please look at the link below.

http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html

I may favor this theory over the stun gun or the train track piece being the culprit. Patsy caused the abrasions while hugging her daughter to death.
 
I wonder if when JR and FW were in the basement earlier, if FW opened the dryer and saw the white blanket there, but did not mention it to JR. Could JR have taken the blanket out and somehow wrapped JBR in it, then moved her closer to the wc door, when he was in the basement by himself?
Could this be why FW was so angry at JR? Could this have been done without altering the rigor that had formed previously?
 
Were the "marks" on her body ever determined to be recent? Or could they have been there prior to her death...

The photos taken of JBR that very same Christmas morning do not show any marks on her face. I can't speak for her body as it was covered in p.j.'s.

But speakin' of those marks on her body...

Didn't Kolar address this very issue in his book, Foreign Faction? If I recall correctly I believe it had somethin' to do with a portion of BR's train track with a missing middle pin.
 
Didn't Kolar address this very issue in his book, Foreign Faction?

And speakin' of Kolar's book...

I absolutely love his humor on the next-to-last page of the final chapter (38) "One Last Lead".

I tried to include an attachment of that page here but for some odd reason was unable to do so...so I reckon y'all just have to go buy the book and see for yourselves.
 
Long ago there was a discussion about a cocktail ring that can be seen on Patsy's hand (I believe on one of her TV appearance). Someone posted a diagram showing that the ring (which was large and appeared to have swiveled around to the palm of her hand-common with heavier rings) could have lined up with the cheek mark. However it is not conclusive by any means. It is unfortunate that, among his many obstacles placed in front of police trying to solve the crime, AH refused to ask for a warrant to exhume the body to check whether the marks could have been caused by a stun gun. Odd that the Rs refused to allow it, as use of a stun gun is more supportive of IDI theories. This is why the police originally suggested the coroner keep the body a bit longer. NOT to hold it "for ransom" so the parents would talk to them, as the DA's office tried to suggest.
I always felt it looked like a cigarette burn, actually. This could also have been easily ruled out or verified by the coroner.
 
I agree with the poster who came up with dryer theory. The dark round marks look like dryer vent burns to me. Could the head wound be from being whacked by the "fins" in the cylinder of the dryer? Being hit by one of these could cause damage to a child. Maybe Patsy took JonBenet to retrieve clean sheets and blanket from the dryer that evening as punishment for wetting the bed. Could Patsy have put JonBenet in the dryer as punishment too? New to this case, days. I did have this thought and wanted to pass it to you serious folks. I remember reading one police officer asking about the laundry and asking about where bedding was done for washing. Just a thought.
 
I agree with the poster who came up with dryer theory. The dark round marks look like dryer vent burns to me. Could the head wound be from being whacked by the "fins" in the cylinder of the dryer? Being hit by one of these could cause damage to a child. Maybe Patsy took JonBenet to retrieve clean sheets and blanket from the dryer that evening as punishment for wetting the bed. Could Patsy have put JonBenet in the dryer as punishment too? New to this case, days. I did have this thought and wanted to pass it to you serious folks. I remember reading one police officer asking about the laundry and asking about where bedding was done for washing. Just a thought.

If JB had been put in a dryer (which I do not believe), there would be more than that one mark. And there would be other bruises or evidence of it. The mark is also in an odd place to come into contact with the inside surface of a dryer.
If you look at an enlargement of that mark, it isn't really black and it isn't as flat as it appears. There are "layers" in there. It truly looks like a cigarette burn to me. But at least one forensic specialist said that it looks like there was a "boat-shaped" impression in there, and may have been made by a snap or button.
 
My kindle went kaput along with kolar's book. I think he mentioned the shape in the mark on the cheek. If it was it must have really been poked into the skin. It does look like a cigarette burn and is just about the right size as well.
 
How would a cigarette burn get there though? Wait, wasn't there cigars in the house? Could it be a cigar burn?
 
A phillips screwdriver or another type of train tool could make a mark with a pattern in the center if it was jabbed and twisted.
 
A phillips screwdriver or another type of train tool could make a mark with a pattern in the center if it was jabbed and twisted.

That would likely puncture the skin. This was basically on the surface. The coroner termed it an "abrasion", which is an erosion or wearing or scraping away. With further testing, the coroner would have been able to tell if it was a burn-electrical (as with a taser) or from a cigarette or other source. Too bad that wasn't done. Also, if the coroner had held the body longer (or if she had been exhumed in a timely manner) the train track which Kolar feels may have made the mark, could have been matched to the injury.
 

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