Black Mark On Her Mandible

[Toltec]

The similar marks could be explained this way....

She was lying on her stomach and whatever she was lying on made the marks.

She was turned over on her back which caused the same marks from the same object she came in contact with while on her stomach.

Like the weaving thingamajig in her bedroom.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

You are worth all praise for that theory WMG. The unusual way PR wears her rings, very strange.

Do you BTW have more indications of PR wearing the rings like that besides that TV appearance, just to settle that is was not at just that specific occasion?

I do not know specific locations for the photos. However, when this Karr mess hit the big time, there were a lot of photos shown of Patsy with a large ring or two turned backwards. At the time, I took a mental note of the photos, but since I was thinking, "well, maybe this is the guy," I did not pay too much attention.

I am sure somewhere, we can locate similar pictures. I have not really tried. Sorry about that. Maybe someone knows about these photos and can post them...I will look when I get a chance.

The point is that I have seen Patsy with her rings on backwards in more than one photo.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

The similar marks could be explained this way....

She was lying on her stomach and whatever she was lying on made the marks.

She was turned over on her back which caused the same marks from the same object she came in contact with while on her stomach.

Like the weaving thingamajig in her bedroom.

Yes, that is entirely possible too.

The reason the ring theory makes so much sense to me is the location of the marks. By chance, sure, JBR could have laid on an object on both of those locations on her body.

However, the marks land exactly where an adult's fingers would land while holding a child. What's more is the fact that the angle of each set of marks is exact, when you compare it to how an adult's fingers would touch the child's body.

If there was a mark on her face and then, say, on her upper back, then I would not be so convinced.

 

[MysteryAddict]

Yes, that is entirely possible too.

The reason the ring theory makes so much sense to me is the location of the marks. By chance, sure, JBR could have laid on an object on both of those locations on her body.

However, the marks land exactly where an adult's fingers would land while holding a child. What's more is the fact that the angle of each set of marks is exact, when you compare it to how an adult's fingers would touch the child's body.

If there was a mark on her face and then, say, on her upper back, then I would not be so convinced.

Great work!! You convinced me.

I don't know why some people insist on holding on to the old rumor of the stun gun. I guess because the Ramsey's have pushed it so hard. It's just not true!

Both Dr. Meyer and Dr. Wecht who examined JonBenet's body said the marks were not burns, but they were abrasions!

Who are you going to believe?

 

[Trocaria]

What would really tell the tale would be to see the embalming report.
While the professional side of me scolds for even suggesting the release of such a confidential doct., the nosy side of me would like to see it as it would tell us how the mortician dealt with the mark on her jaw.

If this was part of livor, he/she should have done all they could to have broken the mark by massage. As one of my mentors told me:

"Any imprints as you describe, first encountering it do NOT
embalm, the imprint will be there for eternity if you do. If the
imprint has not penetrated to the lower layer of skin is best, in
either case you can massage it out, second line of defense is light
application of a heat spatula, always use massage cream..."

An abrasion would have been been treated by the removal of excess tissue and then the application of of surface compress. Following embalming, the area would be waxed over and cosmetized.

All of what the mortician did would have been written out in detail on the embalming report. Reading this would give greater clarity as to whether or not this was an imprint that had set in from livor or an abrasion.

It could be too that the embalmer opted to do nothing to it, left it as was and just waxed/comestized over it, even choosing to arrange the hair so that the curls would fall against that part of her face. IF this were the case, and it is an imprint, as my mentor stated, it would be there for all time.
JBR has been down for almost 10 years. Provided her wood casket went into a good, quality vault, her remains should still be in decent shape.

 

[Eagle1]

No problem, Eagle

Yes, if the stun gun was planted on Helgoth, then either there was a stun gun used in the crime or whoever planted it there wants the world to think there was a stun gun used in the crime.

Agreed, the real killer of JonBenet may have silenced and scapegoated Helgoth by suiciding him, and may have really used a stun gun on JonBenet, or may just have known Helgoth had one and just brought it out of its storage place.

But the rings also could very well have made the marks, especially since you pointed out that they fall exactly where the mother's hands would be. I think that's very good. We have a couple of great experimenters here, the Bloomies and this. Right on.

One thing, that probably means nothing. Nobody used a stun gun on Helgoth's body. It was made to look like a suicide, and Kenady's story about the high-paying job loss and depression may be true or an indication that he himself was involved in the suicide, and probably JonBenet's killing. He's one of those birds of a feather, and pointing the finger just like Michael Tracey.

If Tracey's suspicious, so's this guy!

Editing to add that the ring pictures, or a link to them, may be in a thread titled The Strange Marks.

 

[cindysnow3]

For everyone that need's another view about the stun gun theory please view this site. I find this very probable. JMO

http://ruthees_library.tripod.com/stungun.html

 

[BBB167893]

"Both Dr. Meyer and Dr. Wecht who examined JonBenet's body said the marks were not burns, but they were abrasions!"

No, Wecht never examined the body.

WMG deserves all the praise we can give.

 

[kactres]

I am not sure if this has been commented on yet but here goes....

Were the "marks" on her body ever determined to be recent? Or could they have been there prior to her death...Now i am talking about a medical perspective..not an evaluation based on the Ramseys stating that she had no marks prior....or rather "abrasions" as stated by the ME...I dont recall in his report mentioning whether they were old or new...

K

 

[Seeker]

Dr. Meyer and Dr. Wecht performed the autopsy, therefore they were the only doctors to have examined these marks in person and not from a photo. The autopsy report reflects their findings that the marks are ABRASIONS...

Great post! Since we don't want anyone else from another forum to say we are misrepresenting the facts I'd like to point out that Wecht did not perform any aspect of JonBenet's autopsy.
He formed an opinion on what he read in the autopsy report and from what he was told from various sources. I wouldn't be suprised if he didn't talk directly to Meyer.

 

[Maybe So]

Call them abrasions or whatever you want they are odd looking marks 2 pair of them and no way do I think they came from that toy loom or Patsies rings or the snaps on clothing either. The loom would have left way more marks - it has teeth all over it. For it to be Patsy's rings she would have to press her hands into only those spots on the body and hold them still long enough to make the abrasions and never move her hands around making more marks. I don't buy it. Snaps on clothing I don't think so either - she would she have been face down on them long enough to leave abrasions and then back down on the same item long enough to leave abrasions to the skin - yet there is not blood pooled around these areas to show that the body was pressing against anything in those areas so snaps or buttons on a childs clothes don't sound plausible to me to have left such definate, well defined marks.

Just because they say they are abrasions and not burns doesn't mean they aren't stun gun marks, stun gun marks aren't like a typical blistered burn like you would get from a cigarette or hot water etc so may not have stood out as a burn to the examiner.


I admit the marks may not be from a stun gun (although I think it very possible they are) but I don't think they came from the other sources I have read about on the forums either snaps, looms or rings.

 

[BBB167893]

"For it to be Patsy's rings she would have to press her hands into only those spots on the body and hold them still long enough to make the abrasions and never move her hands around making more marks. I don't buy it."

WMG addresses this, Maybe So. In fact, you can go right to it:

http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html

"Just because they say they are abrasions and not burns doesn't mean they aren't stun gun marks,"

yeah, it does.

"stun gun marks aren't like a typical blistered burn like you would get from a cigarette or hot water etc so may not have stood out as a burn to the examiner."

I can say with some certainty that they would have. I had someone zap me with one of these to see what they look like. Not even close. It didn't knock me out, either. 300,000 volts can really mess up your day!

Not only that, but when I got hit with it, it didn't leave just two neats marks. It looked like I'd been attacked by angry bees, because I was thrashing so much.

"I admit the marks may not be from a stun gun (although I think it very possible they are)"

Well, the pathologists say they're not stunner marks.

"but I don't think they came from the other sources I have read about on the forums either snaps, looms or rings."

Well, there are pics of me as a kid with marks like she had. Could have been a lot of things.

 

[Seeker]

Maybe So, since we don't know (pix of the White's x-mas dinner party were never released) when she got those abrasions, it's possible that she got them earlier in the evening. These were not post mortem abrasions...

 

[Eagle1]

Maybe So, since we don't know (pix of the White's x-mas dinner party were never released) when she got those abrasions, it's possible that she got them earlier in the evening. These were not post mortem abrasions...

We've certainly had no luck finding the cause of the marks without going back that far, to the evening at the FWs'. Anyone want to start there now?

SuperDave, here's a copy paste of a sentence in your post that I find very interesting. "Well, there are pics of me as a kid with marks like she had. Could have been a lot of things."

Are your parents and other relatives still living who you could ask? That's tremencously interesting, I think. Also, when you say you know lots of women who've lost it and killed their kids, you mean famous cases, like Susan Smith, and probably this Melinda Duckett? TIA

 

[BBB167893]

"Are your parents and other relatives still living who you could ask?"

Yep. I did! They said that it was nothing.

"Also, when you say you know lots of women who've lost it and killed their kids, you mean famous cases, like Susan Smith, and probably this Melinda Duckett? TIA"

I've said yes to that question before. But since you seem to have something in mind, let me remind you of one thing: for every case we hear about, there are HUNDREDS we don't. I was referring to them, too.

In fact, you need not take my word for it.

You can find a few here:

http://www.cybersleuths.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002609&p=3

 

[Bev]

I wonder if were looking at that mark from the wrong angle? If you turn the photo upside down the mark looks very much like a bruise you'd get if someone was pushing a thumb down on the skin - the two oval marks look like fingernail impressions. Do you think two people could have picked her up and laid her down and one of them was trying to find a pulse? Or, do you think it's possible that someone grabbed her by the face to get her attention and his/her thumb pressing into her jawline caused that mark?

In my opinion, either of these scenarios is more plausible than a stun gun.

 

[Eagle1]

Yes, I received an email notification of your reply to my question about cases you know, not in time to cancel the other one, sorry.

If they knew we're discussing similar marks online in a murder case forum, would they try harder to remember instead of maybe thinking you're trying to get something on them? I'm just kidding around, I'm sure you realize.

We've had some good ideas here, including the one between your post and mine, but I don't think we've totally hit on it yet. Something might have been happening at the Whites', something they were playing with. I think they had a son about Burke's age, whose name we never ever mention, and the boys may have had some stuff that was too rough for girls.

 

[BBB167893]

"If they knew we're discussing similar marks online in a murder case forum, would they try harder to remember instead of maybe thinking you're trying to get something on them?"

You mean my relatives? I already explained it to them. I have to admit, it was pretty awkward! But my aunt dug out an old-photo albm and found a picture of my fifth birthday party. Sure enough, I had two roundish marks on my arm.

You raise and interesting point. Kids get into trouble all the time.

 

[Eagle1]

Ha ha, do little boys play with sling shots at age 5? Beebee guns?

It's been so long I can't remember and I'm also not a boy. My little brother used to play super hero by using his fists on my arm as a punching bag sometimes, after I'd kept him from getting killed, a lot, but I don't remember any bruises. Just kidding about some of that.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

...For it to be Patsy's rings she would have to press her hands into only those spots on the body and hold them still long enough to make the abrasions and never move her hands around making more marks...

No, no, NO...

Please, TRY it yourself, ok?

I takes about 30 seconds to make these marks with your rings. If you don't wear rings, go buy some bubble-gum-machine fake rings. You don't even have to squeeze hard.

Have you ever held a sleeping, sick child while rocking the child? You normally do not move your hands.

Have you ever held a child on your lap while cradling his or her face in your hand???? I have done this hundreds of times with my little girl - especially when she is crying or sick and I want to bring my face close to hers...

I can imagine Patsy squeezing the dying Jonbenet while holding her like this FOR 30 SECONDS or longer.

Since JBR then DIED, the marks remain...