Blog Question from WFTV

[Searchfortruth]

From Tony's testimony, I don't believe he was close enough to smell anything. George said he didn't detect an odor, but I don't know if that's true or not. The body was in the trunk about 2.6 days, estimate based on forensic findings. The fluid that leaked out, IIRC, is what lead to the smell and that would probably take longer to progress than a body left in the trunk. MOO.

 

[tiredblondy]

I think that is a question from the defense team fishing for possible explanations.
my opinion only

 

[Indianagirl]

ICA has now admitted Caylee is dead and was dead on June 16, 2008. Cadaver dogs detected human decomposition in the trunk of her car. Which just happens to be the same car ICA was texting about an odor coming from before abandoning it.

So, unless there is someone else who was associated with ICA that is missing, I think it's safe to assume Caylee was in that trunk at some point. What are the odds of that being an innocent coincidence?

Also, just b/c no one smelt it, doesn't mean the odor wasn't there. They just weren't close enough to detect it.

GA not smelling decomposition on June 24 when ICA retrieved the gas cans for him is the only event that raises questions for me. I have to say, I'm sticking with what I said above, the smell was probably there and GA just didn't get close enough to smell it. Or the body was somewhere else at that point....which I highly doubt.

There are just some things we will never have an answer to in this case and this is one of them. Bottom line, human decomposition was detected in ICA's car (a car only used by her). At the same time, ICA had a missing daughter......IMO it's pretty self explanatory.

 

[DawnTCB]

OK now it has been forever since I read this and I will need to go through the documents again but IIRC there was talk when the doc dump for the remains came out that the two garbage bags inside the laundry bag had been sealed... the discussion was, mothers tend to bag their children up "womb-like". I personally think she wanted to make it look like a bag of laundry in the trunk (with no fingers or hair poking out) should anyone feel like taking a peek and she couldn't knock them down on the way to the trunk.

Of course the bags were eventually shredded open but I definitely remember discussing them being sealed - maybe someone knows what I am talking about? In any case, I have wondered since then how long the triple bagging would contain the smell. My dad and I were discussing the other day, if something rots in a Tupperware, you can't smell it until you break that seal. If those bags were sealed tightly - like tied not with the plastic drawstrings but the bags themselves knotted, would that not have contained the smell for several days? I am thinking the smell (and the 2.6 days of decomp the air sample shows) started when one of the bags tore and fluid leaked out. Up until that point I would think it would contain the smell within the trunk fairly well.

Telling on myself a little, I once lived in an apartment where the garbage dumpster was at the front of the complex and I lived on the hill in the back. When I emptied my cat litter I always triple bagged it in those little thin bathroom garbage bags and set it by the door until the next time I left, and on more than one occasion I drove past the dumpster and forgot to deposit the litter. I know I left it in my trunk in the heat for more than a couple of days and I would only "remember" it when I saw it, never once from the smell. I have been blessed not to have smelled human decomp, but it is hard to imagine it is a stronger odor than a bag of cat urine (although I understand it is a worse odor), and triple bagging it held that smell perfectly well for me numerous times.

 

[xin]

This was on the WFTV Blog:

You can't ignore the fact that throughout June all the witnesses say there was no smell to the car, Tony L said June 23, she opened the car trunk with me standing there and there was no smell, George A said June 24, she opened the trunk to give me the cans and there was no smell, another friend from the Sutton Place apartment said there was no smell in the car when she was in the car, even the tow truck driver said there was no smell at the time the car was towed. It was a few days after sitting at the tow yard that a slight smell is noticed, then strong smell 2 weeks later. They open the trunk, it's discovered that there was a bag of household garbage in the trunk, that Casey had forgotten to throw in the dumpster on her way out of Sutton Place apartments on June 27.....the prosecution's whole theory was that decomp started in the trunk on June 16

How do you all explain this?

Hi. Help me here. Who says the prosecution theory is that the decomp began in the trunk on June 16? That doesn't make sense, I don't recall that. Location One (scene of the crime, temp, burial, maybe in sand box or elsewhere in the backyard), Car Trunk, Woods.

 

[Friday]

Tte odor of human decomposition is unique in one other respect: It grows stronger, rather than weaker, as time passes.

The above information was documented and discussed here about two years ago by resident experts including a chemist, as I recall. I apologize for not including a link now, but I've been absent for so long that it would take me hours to find it.

 

[xin]

I think that is a question from the defense team fishing for possible explanations.
my opinion only

me too.

 

[Friday]

During the early stages of the car's smell, KC was probably trying to do everything she could on a daily basis to lessen the odor with febreez, dryer sheets, etc. which may also explain why the odor wasn't particularly noticeable to any friends. When this wasn't too successful any more, she carefully laid out and documented the squirrel excuse (blaming GA for running over something). After the car was towed it sat for two weeks in a hot car lot and was never ventilated which allowed the smell to really concentrate.

I remember my daughter left a gallon of milk in the trunk overnight when we lived in FL. It was godawful the next day. Steam cleaning the trunk, spraying stuff, you name it - it never really went away fully. After a while, you couldn't smell it when you first got in the car, but if the trunk was opened, it would permeate back in. If it was sitting parked in the sun for a few hours it would suddenly smell stronger all throughout the car. I had to go back all the time and re-treat the carpet in the trunk with fabric deodorizer. This is months later. Initially, whenever I had to park the car for a while, I'd open the doors up to let it ventilate enough to make the smell die down to make driving possible or pleasant. After a while, I had to do it less and less, and generally only when the car was left in the sun to heat.

What people may not be considering is that prior to June 27 KC was taking measures to reduce the smell; after that it was completely undisturbed and in the hot sun for weeks. Also, the fact that CA had just sprayed a whole can of Febreez on the car may have reduced it enough so that the first responding officer didn't notice it right away on July 16, although I'm sure that effort wore off in the subsequent hours.

:seeya: Intelligant and wise as ever, I see. Hi there.

 

[Carrington]

I remember when we first started discussing the smell, doing tests on 2 week old pizza etc.
The best help for those of us that had never smelled decomposition, rotten potatoes.
(I'm familiar with that)
IMO

 

[GetSmart]

I tell you the worst smell I have ever smelled is rotting chicken left in garbage and the garbage man didn't pick up the cans that day ..OMG it was deadly I swear the neighbors could smell it /..

 

[TotallyObsessed]

OK now it has been forever since I read this and I will need to go through the documents again but IIRC there was talk when the doc dump for the remains came out that the two garbage bags inside the laundry bag had been sealed... the discussion was, mothers tend to bag their children up "womb-like". I personally think she wanted to make it look like a bag of laundry in the trunk (with no fingers or hair poking out) should anyone feel like taking a peek and she couldn't knock them down on the way to the trunk.

Of course the bags were eventually shredded open but I definitely remember discussing them being sealed - maybe someone knows what I am talking about? In any case, I have wondered since then how long the triple bagging would contain the smell. My dad and I were discussing the other day, if something rots in a Tupperware, you can't smell it until you break that seal. If those bags were sealed tightly - like tied not with the plastic drawstrings but the bags themselves knotted, would that not have contained the smell for several days? I am thinking the smell (and the 2.6 days of decomp the air sample shows) started when one of the bags tore and fluid leaked out. Up until that point I would think it would contain the smell within the trunk fairly well.

Telling on myself a little, I once lived in an apartment where the garbage dumpster was at the front of the complex and I lived on the hill in the back. When I emptied my cat litter I always triple bagged it in those little thin bathroom garbage bags and set it by the door until the next time I left, and on more than one occasion I drove past the dumpster and forgot to deposit the litter. I know I left it in my trunk in the heat for more than a couple of days and I would only "remember" it when I saw it, never once from the smell. I have been blessed not to have smelled human decomp, but it is hard to imagine it is a stronger odor than a bag of cat urine (although I understand it is a worse odor), and triple bagging it held that smell perfectly well for me numerous times.

Great post. I have had "things" in my fridge that I refused to open the container and threw the entire thing away, because I knew when opened.....pheeeeeeewwweeee.
Also had a cat urinate in my car on the way to the vet once. Nothing I did EVER got that smell out of that car. I was so glad when I traded it in.

 

[Yellow]

Yes, this is also an issue that I have been questioning, that is, why was there no smell on the 24th when TL and GA were near the car. If she killed her on the 16th, that would have been over a week in a hot car and you would think it would have smelled a little bit. Do you think ICA drove around with the body in the trunk all that time? Or did she have the body somewhere and move it? Because if she dumped her in the woods on the 16th or whatever you would not think there would still be a still a smell in July. Did she maybe not move the body to the woods until the 27th or whatever date she left it at the ascot?

 

[JWG]

I posted a theory on KC and the evolving trunk smell [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3715399&postcount=465"]here[/ame]
back in May, 2009. I thought it might be useful to bring forward. BTW, I believe Caylee was dumped on Suburban Dr. on the 20th.

I thought it would be good to put WAISI's observation and Bond's added detail in some timeline perspective.

June 20 - The smell of decomp might have been noticeable to a small degree in the trunk, which may have prompted KC to attempt to clean the trunk when she backed into the garage at her parents that day. It is likely the smell had not yet become noticeable in the passenger compartment, and the reasons why will become apparent below.

June 21 and June 22 - Based on pings, it appears KC never left Tony's and therefore would not have noticed any change in the smell of the car, because she did not use the car.

June 23 - TL was near the front passenger side of the Pontiac as KC poured gas into the car. KC was between him and the trunk. When KC opened the trunk to put the cans away TL turned to go shut the tailgate on his Jeep, walking away from the car. TL notes that KC made no attempt to keep him from the trunk, the only odd thing being (in his mind) that she wanted to pour the gas herself.

The fact that she let him near the car leads me to believe no smell had yet permeated the passenger compartment. Also, it seems likely that KC opened the trunk for the very first time since June 20 when she put the gas cans away, likely receiving a hefty waft of decomp in the process. :yuck: KC dodged a bullet because Tony had begun to walk away and was "shielded" by gasoline fumes between him and the trunk. :whistle:

June 24 - Now KC knows she has a problem with the odor in her trunk. This is why she blows past dad when he wants to get the tool from her trunk - she cannot let him smell it. GA does get close to the car, but never got to the rear of the vehicle before KC shoved the gas cans into his hands. Given the trunk was opened just briefly before George got there and the car was parked outside, there was ample time for what little odor escaped to dissipate enough so as not to register to GA. KC dodges another. :yow:

I think WAISI's initial observation that KC had to ditch the car somewhere due to the smell so that she did not have to use it to take AL to the airport still holds. To me, she begins formulating the plan the afternoon of the 24th or sometime on the 25th. :idea:

Knowing she only had a couple gallons of gas in the tank, she was pretty confident :snooty: she would run out by the evening of the 29th, thus avoiding using the car the morning of the 30th. After running out she would need to get the car back after taking Tony to the airport.

I don't think KC had things completely worked out in her mind, but it seems her first instinct was to enlist Amy's help to get gas for the car. This meant she had to explain the smell in advance so as not to surprise Amy when they both showed up to put gas in the car, thus prompting two advance calls and text.

June 25 - Either on this day or possibly the 24th (while driving away from the 'rents after racing George to the trunk) KC tells Amy about a horrible smell in the car during a phone conversation. She blames it on her dad, who she claims ran over something and it got stuck to the car. She said the smell was coming from the engine, so clearly by this time it has entered the passenger compartment.

June 26 - In a second phone conversation, KC tells Amy the smell has gotten much worse. :sick:

June 27 - In a text to Amy while driving north from the 'rents to TL's - before ditching the car at Amscot - KC tells Amy "There was definitely part of a dead animal plastered to the frame of my car." KC then texts Amy about running out of gas a few minutes later.

Of course she told Tony a different story - that the car had broken down and she contacted her dad, who would take care of it. Nevertheless, her plan is off to a great start. :woohoo:

June 28 - Sometime on Saturday KC realizes she has a real problem with the smell in the car, and formulates a plan to throw Jesse under the bus. Her first attempt is to call him around 1:30 PM and ask him if she can borrow his gas can. He is on the other side of town, however, and declines. :banghead:

June 29 - Knowing she has to get the car she reverts to the original plan and enlists Amy's help. She texts Amy on Sunday and asks if she can borrow her gas cans, but Amy reminds her they are in storage. Seems nothing is going her way. :banghead:

June 30 - Not to be denied, KC shows up at Amy's and they go to Target around noon to get a gas can (with Amy's money, of course :thumb. After Amy leaves for work KC drives to the Amscot to put gas in the car, but sees it is missing. :banghead:

What puzzles me is what her plan was if the car was still there there. Leave Tony's jeep and take the Pontiac back to Tony's? The distance between the two is only 2.8 miles, so KC could have jogged or walked it, I suppose.

I am not convinced that KC breathed a sigh of relief when she saw the car was missing. She had to realize someone else had it and would eventually figure out what was causing the smell. I think this is what prompted her to make a second attempt at throwing Jesse under the bus.

July 1 - In the morning, KC leaves Andy F.'s and drives back to TL's apartment, where she stays for about 15 minutes - probably picking up some clothing. Then she calls Jesse and asks if she can take a shower at his place because she does not have a key to Tony's. :liar: Lot's of driving around for someone who can't afford gas, IMHO.

I have no idea what her plan was, but it clearly started with seduction - leaving the bathroom door partly opened while she showered. Perhaps she was planning to steal something of value and place it at the crime scene after she'd finished bedding him, as has been speculated by many on this board. But Jesse did not fall for it, and luckily his roommate showed up soon after.

It is possible she actually did take something and plant it at the scene. KC pinged in an area consistent with the crime scene on two occasions during the evening of July 1: 7:15PM and 8:30 PM. In both cases she was there long enough to plant evidence. If she did plant something, whatever it was deteriorated by Dec. 11. :doh:

 

[Friday]

I posted a theory on KC and the evolving trunk smell here
back in May, 2009. I thought it might be useful to bring forward. BTW, I believe Caylee was dumped on Suburban Dr. on the 20th.

I thought it would be good to put WAISI's observation and Bond's added detail in some timeline perspective.

June 20 - The smell of decomp might have been noticeable to a small degree in the trunk, which may have prompted KC to attempt to clean the trunk when she backed into the garage at her parents that day. It is likely the smell had not yet become noticeable in the passenger compartment, and the reasons why will become apparent below.

June 21 and June 22 - Based on pings, it appears KC never left Tony's and therefore would not have noticed any change in the smell of the car, because she did not use the car.

June 23 - TL was near the front passenger side of the Pontiac as KC poured gas into the car. KC was between him and the trunk. When KC opened the trunk to put the cans away TL turned to go shut the tailgate on his Jeep, walking away from the car. TL notes that KC made no attempt to keep him from the trunk, the only odd thing being (in his mind) that she wanted to pour the gas herself.

The fact that she let him near the car leads me to believe no smell had yet permeated the passenger compartment. Also, it seems likely that KC opened the trunk for the very first time since June 20 when she put the gas cans away, likely receiving a hefty waft of decomp in the process. :yuck: KC dodged a bullet because Tony had begun to walk away and was "shielded" by gasoline fumes between him and the trunk. :whistle:

June 24 - Now KC knows she has a problem with the odor in her trunk. This is why she blows past dad when he wants to get the tool from her trunk - she cannot let him smell it. GA does get close to the car, but never got to the rear of the vehicle before KC shoved the gas cans into his hands. Given the trunk was opened just briefly before George got there and the car was parked outside, there was ample time for what little odor escaped to dissipate enough so as not to register to GA. KC dodges another. :yow:

I think WAISI's initial observation that KC had to ditch the car somewhere due to the smell so that she did not have to use it to take AL to the airport still holds. To me, she begins formulating the plan the afternoon of the 24th or sometime on the 25th. :idea:

Knowing she only had a couple gallons of gas in the tank, she was pretty confident :snooty: she would run out by the evening of the 29th, thus avoiding using the car the morning of the 30th. After running out she would need to get the car back after taking Tony to the airport.

I don't think KC had things completely worked out in her mind, but it seems her first instinct was to enlist Amy's help to get gas for the car. This meant she had to explain the smell in advance so as not to surprise Amy when they both showed up to put gas in the car, thus prompting two advance calls and text.

June 25 - Either on this day or possibly the 24th (while driving away from the 'rents after racing George to the trunk) KC tells Amy about a horrible smell in the car during a phone conversation. She blames it on her dad, who she claims ran over something and it got stuck to the car. She said the smell was coming from the engine, so clearly by this time it has entered the passenger compartment.

June 26 - In a second phone conversation, KC tells Amy the smell has gotten much worse. :sick:

June 27 - In a text to Amy while driving north from the 'rents to TL's - before ditching the car at Amscot - KC tells Amy "There was definitely part of a dead animal plastered to the frame of my car." KC then texts Amy about running out of gas a few minutes later.

Of course she told Tony a different story - that the car had broken down and she contacted her dad, who would take care of it. Nevertheless, her plan is off to a great start. :woohoo:

June 28 - Sometime on Saturday KC realizes she has a real problem with the smell in the car, and formulates a plan to throw Jesse under the bus. Her first attempt is to call him around 1:30 PM and ask him if she can borrow his gas can. He is on the other side of town, however, and declines. :banghead:

June 29 - Knowing she has to get the car she reverts to the original plan and enlists Amy's help. She texts Amy on Sunday and asks if she can borrow her gas cans, but Amy reminds her they are in storage. Seems nothing is going her way. :banghead:

June 30 - Not to be denied, KC shows up at Amy's and they go to Target around noon to get a gas can (with Amy's money, of course :thumb. After Amy leaves for work KC drives to the Amscot to put gas in the car, but sees it is missing. :banghead:

What puzzles me is what her plan was if the car was still there there. Leave Tony's jeep and take the Pontiac back to Tony's? The distance between the two is only 2.8 miles, so KC could have jogged or walked it, I suppose.

I am not convinced that KC breathed a sigh of relief when she saw the car was missing. She had to realize someone else had it and would eventually figure out what was causing the smell. I think this is what prompted her to make a second attempt at throwing Jesse under the bus.

July 1 - In the morning, KC leaves Andy F.'s and drives back to TL's apartment, where she stays for about 15 minutes - probably picking up some clothing. Then she calls Jesse and asks if she can take a shower at his place because she does not have a key to Tony's. :liar: Lot's of driving around for someone who can't afford gas, IMHO.

I have no idea what her plan was, but it clearly started with seduction - leaving the bathroom door partly opened while she showered. Perhaps she was planning to steal something of value and place it at the crime scene after she'd finished bedding him, as has been speculated by many on this board. But Jesse did not fall for it, and luckily his roommate showed up soon after.

It is possible she actually did take something and plant it at the scene. KC pinged in an area consistent with the crime scene on two occasions during the evening of July 1: 7:15PM and 8:30 PM. In both cases she was there long enough to plant evidence. If she did plant something, whatever it was deteriorated by Dec. 11. :doh:

:rocker: Thanks just isn't good enough.

 

[Hisimage]

Wow-- you guys have done some great work! Where did ICA stay June 30, do we know?

 

[txsvicki]

I just can't believe that trashbags would seal in the odor of a decomposing body, and don't think Caylee was in the trunk the whole time. I think she was in the trunk up to 2.5 days or placed in the trunk after 2.5 days. Some fluid could have leaked at death if she wasn't in a bag, then again at the 2.5 day mark. The body could have been placed out back of the home then moved over to the final spot yet again on or after the 24th when there was definitely a strong odor.

 

[shgrbkr]

I wondered about this very thing the other day. Something in the trial brought it to my attention. The only thing I can think of is there was some decomp residue somewhere in the trunk that took a while to be noticed. Imagine it would get pretty bad being shut up in a hot car without ventilation. I do agree that KC threw the bag of garbage in there thinking it might help. Couldn't hurt, that's for sure. When her tactics failed, she abandoned the car.

 

[MaraSleuth]

I've mentioned it before but I think it is possible that garbage can make the worst smell if left in the car. This summer our garbage people went on strike and we were hauling our own garbage bags to the dump. I drove 3 bags of garbage to the dump (20 minutes drive). After, I noticed one of the bags leaked God knows what. The stench was unbelievable. I pulled out the trunk liner and scrubbed it, let it dry in the hot sun, sprayed febreeze all over it. The smell of that garbage stayed (albeit not as strong) for months. Our wheel cover had the same type of stains underneath on the cardboard part from me scrubbing the trunk liner in the trunk - the chemicals etc leaked through the sides and underneath.

I think Casey made a smart attempt to cover up the decomp smell with garbage. My opinion is the garbage was put in the trunk to make whoever found the car think the smell was from the garbage.

All I can say is that smell from my trunk was awful, I gag just thinking about it. I could not believe how bad it smelled. I wanted to share this with those of you who said garbage could not smell that bad.

I don't believe the garbage caused the smell but rather the garbage was put in the trunk to cover the decomp smell. I'm shocked she was smart enough to come up with the idea.

The stains on the underside of the wheel cover in my opinion were caused from the clean up process.

 

[Swancat63]

If Caylee was in the trunk un-bagged to begin with, when fluids were expelled(sorry) for 2.6 days, then triple bagged, returned to the trunk, could the bags laying on top of the stain have kept some of the smell at bay? That's what I always thought, kinda sealing the smell until it became overwhelming? JMO

 

[Etilema]

I've mentioned it before but I think it is possible that garbage can make the worst smell if left in the car. This summer our garbage people went on strike and we were hauling our own garbage bags to the dump. I drove 3 bags of garbage to the dump (20 minutes drive). After, I noticed one of the bags leaked God knows what. The stench was unbelievable. I pulled out the trunk liner and scrubbed it, let it dry in the hot sun, sprayed febreeze all over it. The smell of that garbage stayed (albeit not as strong) for months. Our wheel cover had the same type of stains underneath on the cardboard part from me scrubbing the trunk liner in the trunk - the chemicals etc leaked through the sides and underneath.

I think Casey made a smart attempt to cover up the decomp smell with garbage. My opinion is the garbage was put in the trunk to make whoever found the car think the smell was from the garbage.

All I can say is that smell from my trunk was awful, I gag just thinking about it. I could not believe how bad it smelled. I wanted to share this with those of you who said garbage could not smell that bad.

I don't believe the garbage caused the smell but rather the garbage was put in the trunk to cover the decomp smell. I'm shocked she was smart enough to come up with the idea.

The stains on the underside of the wheel cover in my opinion were caused from the clean up process.

It could possibly be that there was meat in your garbage. Rotting meat (or the juices from it) would be the same thing as other rotting flesh.