Bloodstains on Darin's jeans

[beesy]

Snooty, what's your explaination of the screen fiber on the bread knife in the Routier butcher block? A plant, stupid detective work, or a sign that one or the other of the 2 D's cut the screen?

 

[beesy]

Did you name yourself after Lucy and Desi's production company?

 

[wenchie]

I haven't read any of the books on Darlie in years & years, so I'm not up on the details any more - but I'm wondering: has it ever been speculated that Darlie attacked the boys and then Darin attacked her?

Also - although I'm sure that she's guilty, there are a few things about her story that do ring true. When she says that she didn't know that her neck was cut until she bent over and the blood gushed out.

How would a person even come up with a scenario like that if it hadn't happened? How would you even know that this was possible?

 

[Dani_T]

his here is what I do not understand. Where do you get all the information as to where this intruder was and so on? You don't know. You get it from the words of someone in shock and from the words of posters here and there.

Ok- so which way does it go? Darlie is in shock and therefore nothing she said can be trusted or we can trust what Darlie said about the intruder (as long as we can overlook all the inconsistencies). You can't have your cake and eat it too Snooty.

But this kind of thing is the things that need to be pondered a bit. Some things make a logical sense and some do not. I have also read what Darlie has to say regarding this and it is just not clear from her words just what happen and when. You can choose to believe the words of the multiple others who tell that Darlie say this and that if you want to

No Snooty. I'm taking all of what I said in the above post from Darlie's own words. And in case you don't believe me here they are:

Voluntary Statement:

I felt Damon press on my right should and heard him cry this made me really come awake and realised there was a man standing down at my feet walking away from me. I walked after him and heard glass breaking. I got halfway through the kitchen and turned back around to run and turn the light on... I looked over and saw the door shut to the garage so I thought he might still be in there

In Her Own Words

Next thing I remember -- Damon runs into my right shoulder and says "mommy." I sat straight up and saw a "blur" of a man between my couch and kitchen bar (Fig. 1-1).

I stood up and Damon walked behind me. I heard glass breaking. When I got to the entrance of the kitchen, I saw man going into my utility room I took a couple of steps and remembered lights were off went back and turned lights on.

Here are her pictures- drawn by her own hand

Trial Testimony

The next thing that I remember is
3 Damon hitting my right shoulder, and he said "Mommy," or
4 he said "Mommy, Mommy," I'm not sure, but he said,
5 "Mommy."
6 I looked up, and you've got to
7 remember that I'm in a -- I am not completely awake, you
8 know, when you first wake up, you are not completely wide
9 awake. And there was a man, that was down, going away
10 from the couches, walking away from me.
11 I started to get up and when I stood
12 up, I heard noise like glass breaking. I started to walk
13 towards the kitchen, Damon was behind me, and when I got
14 to the kitchen, I put my hand back here for Damon to
15 stay. And when I got to the kitchen, I could see the guy
16 going into the utility room.
17 Q. Were the lights on?
18 A. No, sir, the lights were off.
19 Q. Okay. So the area was illuminated by
20 the big screen TV set only?
21 A. There was a little bit of -- yeah, I
22 mean, there was a little bit of light, I don't know what
23 you would call that, just kind of a --
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. A glare, maybe.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
4868
1 Q. All right. Okay. What happened?
2 A. I started to take a couple of steps
3 into the kitchen, and I realized that the lights were
4 off, so I turned back around, and I flipped the lights on
5 real quick. I started to walk into the kitchen.
....
1 A. Actually, it happened all so quick I
2 did yell out for Darin, but it was after a couple of
3 seconds that the guy had already walked out

It's pretty clear to me that the mystery man was around 6 or so feet away from her when Damon actually spoke to her. It's pretty clear that she came straight awake apparently, didn't mumur something like 'what's wrong Damon' or 'go back to sleep honey' or anything that a normal mother would say when her son wakes her in the middle of the night. Instead she straight away (in the dark with only the TV glare) sees a man at the bottom of the bed before she says anything or moves. And then instead of grabbing Damon and hushing him and looking to see where Devon is she gets up and follows him- a woman in her mid 20s with two boys downstairs to protect gets woken in the middle of the night, sees a strange man in her house and follows him. She watches him walk through her kitchen, follows him turns on a light and seconds later even though she thinks he could still be in the house and knows she has been cut because of blood on her nightgown she starts yelling for Darin.

And what about the mystery man himself? He doesn't hear Damon try to wake her. In a silent house he doesn't hear her get off the couch and follow him. Damon is just following silently despite having been stabbed brutally and not crying or sobbing? He walks through the U-room (somehow dropping the knife without leaving any spatter to indicate he had dropped it) and into the black garage and doesn't notice either when he is in the garage that gee whiz someone in the house (who he thought he just killed) turned a light on because suddenly it's brighter in here. And he doesn't notice when he climbs out the window that the kitchen light is suddenly on? And he doesn't manage to get any blood anywhere in the garage (let's leave the shoe scuff mark aside for moment since it is disputed) despite the fact that it is dark and cluttered, or leave any blood when he squeezes through the whole in the screen or leave blood outside of on the gate as he exits.

Go with what you see rather than what you hear from various people who were not there.

Oh I'm going by the tales of someone who was very definitely there.

Again I am not as certain as you. I do not know his mental state while leaving. I do not know where he was located in relationship to Darlie. There are many variables that none of us know about this.

Darlie has consistently said where he was located in respect to her. He was still in the living area when Damon woke her. He was moving into the U-room when she got to the kitchen

Do you think there is a standard response?

Yes I do. Shut up from pure fear to not draw attention to your two boys whilst an intruder roams through your house. You DO NOT follow an intruder in your house in the middle of the night to make sure he knows the way out.

Dani, people to include women behave in all kinds of different ways. You are limiting yourself here by being so firm in your belief that you have figure out the way people would behave. Not should behave but would behave.

I've never placed much emphasis on the silly string video or even Darlie's demeanor in court etc because I think it is possible for people to respond in different ways to grief. However, how you behave when you are awakened to an intruder in your house (particularly as a woman) would be a natural instinct- particularly when you have two children feet away to protect. Why on earth would you follow an intruder? What could possibly make you leave your children when you don't know if anyone else is in the house and follow an intruder? Why on earth would you turn the light on when he is only just out of your line of sight thus drawing attention to yourself? Why would you start screaming when by your own confession he could very well still be in the garage? It makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. The behaviour of any kind of mother (human or not) when her young are threatened is to protect them - not place them in more danger. To that extent Darlie's behaviour should have been very predictable.

I have to give a big sigh here and say yes Dani we have been discussing this for many days now. I am glad to see it did not escape your eyes also.

 

[SnootyVixen]

Snooty, what's your explaination of the screen fiber on the bread knife in the Routier butcher block? A plant, stupid detective work, or a sign that one or the other of the 2 D's cut the screen?

This is brilliant thing to discuss. I think this. I think that the evidence material too little for good testing. I think Linch say it is exactly the same to his looking at it. I think that never one time do he say that it is definately what he think it is. I think that what they say in this new writ is very good information. That he say he think other things are the same but they turn out to not be as he has thought.
So my answer to you is I think not enough material for testing. I do not think detectives are stupid or that Darlie or Darin use that knife to cut screen. I think nothing proven at all about this. And I also do think that something like this which is not proven should not be brougjht to the trial.

 

[Goody]

Excuse me Miss Goody, but I presented this idea to you long ago. You agreed as did several others. I said it again a few posts above. There is no doubt in my mind that she's screaming Darin's name. You need to up your Alzheimer's pills girl. We already ran this one into the rug.

O, no-no-no. I have thought that from the very beginning. I have even wondered if she shouted it out the garage door rather than the front door, accounting for that little smudge in the garage and the blood on the door. I may have agreed with you on your suggestion but I suggested it long ago at GAC. Before you were even around these boards. I am just not one to constantly say "I thought of that first." You have made a couple of observations I found pretty good, but this one is mine all mine. Not that a dozen others in the world couldn't have come up with the same idea and probably before I did because I have only been posting on this case for about three years.

When you are dedeucing, nothing is original. If you want to be a true creator of something, write a song. LOL! Everything we come up with here is just spun off of someone else's observations. I don't see how anyone can ever claim ownership of the brillance we share here. We are all part of it, like a million tiny specks of glitter forming different patterns on different days. The only truly unique idea I have heard so far is the one made by JG long, long ago when she suggested they should have tested the knife under the handle because they might have found Devon's blood on it, thereby disspelling defense claims that there was another knife.

 

[beesy]

O, no-no-no. I have thought that from the very beginning. I have even wondered if she shouted it out the garage door rather than the front door, accounting for that little smudge in the garage and the blood on the door. I may have agreed with you on your suggestion but I suggested it long ago at GAC. Before you were even around these boards. I am just not one to constantly say "I thought of that first." You have made a couple of observations I found pretty good, but this one is mine all mine. Not that a dozen others in the world couldn't have come up with the same idea and probably before I did because I have only been posting on this case for about three years.

When you are dedeucing, nothing is original. If you want to be a true creator of something, write a song. LOL! Everything we come up with here is just spun off of someone else's observations. I don't see how anyone can ever claim ownership of the brillance we share here. We are all part of it, like a million tiny specks of glitter forming different patterns on different days. The only truly unique idea I have heard so far is the one made by JG long, long ago when she suggested they should have tested the knife under the handle because they might have found Devon's blood on it, thereby disspelling defense claims that there was another knife.

Ok, ok, ok...you're right. I like the glitter analogy. :blowkiss:

 

[speedymama]

Why don't you listen to the tape again and imagine what she would sound like if she were faking it? You know, she isn't hyperventilating on that tape. She is just squealing in a high pitched yell that is barely understandable until runs out of breath and has to slow down. One minute she is yelling, the next she spits out something in a very clear, matter of fact tone, hysteria suddenly gone. What I did when analyzing this was just not consider anything that could be faked. Once I was sure from the evidence that was pretty solid, I went back to the other stuff like the 911 call. It sounds very different once you know she did it.

O.k I will listen again. Thanks

 

[Goody]

This is brilliant thing to discuss. I think this. I think that the evidence material too little for good testing. I think Linch say it is exactly the same to his looking at it. I think that never one time do he say that it is definately what he think it is. I think that what they say in this new writ is very good information. That he say he think other things are the same but they turn out to not be as he has thought.
So my answer to you is I think not enough material for testing. I do not think detectives are stupid or that Darlie or Darin use that knife to cut screen. I think nothing proven at all about this. And I also do think that something like this which is not proven should not be brougjht to the trial.

You would make a good point here IF, and I do mean IF you could show us where they found other fibers, even one other fiber the same size and consistency as the one on the bread knife that compares to the screen fibers. It is easy to say there could be others there without having to present them as factually correct. No matter how much they tested, there would always be someone saying they might have missed the very one itty bitty, teensy tiny fiber that was just like the one they found, defeating Linch's theory. So that is an argument that doesn't carry much weight. If they tested one hundred things, someone would insist they should have tested 200. If they tested one thousand, someone would be yelling for 2000.

As for his error on the hair, I think he said the blonde hair was consistent with Darlie's bleached hair. The policewoman it belonged to also had bleached hair. But they didn't stop there. They went on with their testing and discovered that it was hers rather than Darlie's. Ironically, I don't think the policewoman was ever even in the house so the hair must have been transferred by one of the maile police officers, which just shows how easily it is to transfer hairs. (Keep that in mind when you are looking at the deer hair and the negroid pubic hair.) Linch was not wrong about the blonde hairs. They were consistent with each other. They just did not come from the same woman.

What are the chances that another fiber the same size and shape and consistency, made out of the same materials would be found in the same house? How coincidental would it have to be for one of those fibers to come from the screen in question and the other from some innocent source in the house? I can't think of a single thing that should cause the fiber to be on the knife that has nothing to do with the murders? Can you? Wouldn't it have to be another screen, from some other window? What innocent explanation could that possibly have?

 

[Goody]

I haven't read any of the books on Darlie in years & years, so I'm not up on the details any more - but I'm wondering: has it ever been speculated that Darlie attacked the boys and then Darin attacked her?

Also - although I'm sure that she's guilty, there are a few things about her story that do ring true. When she says that she didn't know that her neck was cut until she bent over and the blood gushed out.

How would a person even come up with a scenario like that if it hadn't happened? How would you even know that this was possible?

Well, for starters it probably did happen at the sink but not in the way she described. That is probably where she got the idea to add it to her story. The problem with that brainstorm is that there was no evidence of blood that gushed out in the location she claimed. Just as there was not evidence that a bloody knife had dropped or been thrown onto the vinyl flooring. If she was telling the truth, the physical evidence should have backed up her claims. So the conclusion is that the knife was not thrown on the floor by a fleeing intruder and Darlie never leaned forward to pick it up and gushed blood on the floor.

Besides, she changed it by the time she got to court and said she first noticed she was cut when she saw herself in the mirror of the wine rack when she was on her way back to the family room to get Darin who was upstairs sleeping. If you look at the kitchen,that rings true too. But I doubt if either one happened at the times and for the reasons she gave.

To answer your first question, yes, people have discussed Darin trying to disarm her and some have suggested that he was the one who cut her throat. I don't think anyone has said they thought he attacked her for killing the children, though that is not bad. He didn't do enough damage though to think that is what really happened. If he had been that angry with her, surely she would have been a bit more cut up. Or beaten up. And if that is what happened, why not just fess up afterwards. It would have been justifiable, that is for sure.

 

[Goody]

Yet I do not find it easy to believe that thd prosecution would hold that back. What are these additional peices of evidence they are supposed to have held in reserfe? Try to help Darlie a little maybe?

No, Snooty, they probably felt they had enough physical evidence and didn't need it all just like Marsha Clark did at the OJ trial. The only difference was Clark didn't get her conviction but Toby Shook did get his. Lucky for OJ; bad for Darlie.

 

[speedymama]

Yeah and how could things go wrong. Darlie was asleep on the couch according to her, all he would have had to do was drive that knife deep into her chest or back like he did the boys.

Hi Cami,since I really don't know what happened that night it is hard to say, but if Darlie was the one that was supposed to be killed that night, she was a sleep on couch the boys should of been in there own beds but they wanted to sleep downstairs watching t.v, so Darlie let them. IF a intruder was suppose to kill Darlie he had a surprise because she was not alone. Maybe the boys woke up and he silenced them because they saw him. As far as not bringing a weapon with him, that does not bother me much since most women are strangled. Why the knife and how or why it was used, I don't know. Maybe it was not a hired hit man, maybe a rapist that did not want witnesses. Maybe Darlie did do it and darin did not know anything and learned the truth after darlie came home and that is why she was brusied cause he beat the heck out of her. It just does not make since something is missing. I know mothers kill there children lord knows we have been through those trials. I just can not bite the big one and say Darlie did this all by herself and Darin would know and cover for her after seeing those two little boys covered with blood. If he did he, is as big of a monster as she is.

 

[Goody]

It just does not make since something is missing. I know mothers kill there children lord knows we have been through those trials. I just can not bite the big one and say Darlie did this all by herself and Darin would know and cover for her after seeing those two little boys covered with blood. If he did he, is as big of a monster as she is.

I agree with you. Darin has to be more involved that they claim, but that does not mean that he picked up a knife and cut anyone. Maybe he just didn't stop it. Or maybe his participation was after the attacks. I have often wondered if he didn't stumble into the scene when Darlie was trying to clean up, and after the initial shock decide to help her for fear the police would never believe he wasn't a part of it. But something was going on when he was giving CPR to Devon, most likely knowing that he couldn't be helped, and both parents virtually ignoring Damon who was bleeding to death. Also, I have a hard time with the picture of Darin slipping over to take Damon's pulse just minutes before paramedics arrive, then scurrying back to his post at Devon's side. Either Darin is scared shi*tless or something very ugly is afoot.

 

[justice2]

I glad you brought that up. I found another WTF in the 911 tape that I hadn't notice before ... somebody who did it intentionally walked in here and did it Darin (at 05:19:09). There's another time when she told Darin ... I saw them Darin (at 1:11:28).

So it's kinda like maybe Darin was questioning her in all the chaos. She seems really defensive toward Darin at the 05:10:09. Really defensive. She was also very clear there. And not in the high pitched voice either. Anybody else hear it that way, defensive toward Darin. The word "intentionally" really bothers me too.

I think I'll always notice something that blows me away everytime I hear that tape.

 

[speedymama]

HA HA! Yes, but guess what? This is not a movie. Ok, Darin is a very large man, yet you're saying he was unable to kill a sleeping Darlie? Killers usually do not change MO's from victim to victim. The Routier Killer uses deep plunging wounds on 2 small boys, but then reaches up at an awkward angle to slit Darlie's throat? Her stomach and chest were much easier to reach and stabbing her would be the same MO. Her wound is not the typical ear-to-ear slash which is normally seen. It's also not very deep. How do you suppose the killer could make that sort of cut? Behind her while she slept? Beside her while she slept? In front of her while she slept?
Another thing, Darlie didn't act confused or spacey on the phone with 911. If you're saying she had just been waked up by Darin cutting her, she should have sounded confused on the tape. She doesn't. She tells her story. She doesn't say "I don't know what happened! I just woke up!" Why did Darin even give her a chance to dial 911? He certainly would have known he didn't kill her. She says she jumped right up after "frightening" with this attacker. You're saying Darin tried to kill her and then ran from HER? Now really think about that. Does that make sense? Any attacker wouldn't have known she would have amnesia and not remember much. How would Darin know that? He just bolted out the UR door and let her chase him? But you then think Darin was so worried about Damon telling on him that he killed him, but let Darlie live? Again, why would he expect her to come down with TA?
I do believe Darin was involved but not in the way you are saying. Both D's admit to having an argument that night. There are stories about Darlie told by friends and even family about her histrionics. So they argue, perhaps he threatens to take the boys away from her. She says she'll hurt them and/or herself before that happens. He dares her or something to that effect. We know things hadn't been so great for her, she even claims to have nearly attempted suicide about a month before the attacks. She was on Rx diet pills, which are basically legal speed, she most likely had some post-partum stuff going on, her cash flow was becoming smaller and smaller. She attacks Devon first. While she is attacking Damon, Darin runs downstairs. Now he mentions having what would be a typical trauma reaction. He's confused, he thinks the glass table top fell and cut Devon, things were moving in slow motion. He doesn't even see Damon at first. Darlie never mentions anything like that. I remember our son fell down 3 steps on our stairwell. I watched him tumble and it seemed like it lasted several minutes, like he'd never stop falling.
Darlie made Darin feel guilty, saying he dared her to do it. So he helps her. I also believe he stabs Damon while she's on the phone with 911. Hence, he cannot tell on her without telling on himself. This may sound like a way-out theory, but the theory of Darin attacking all 3 of them the way she says the attacks occured makes no sense at all.

Hi Beesy, you are right if Darin had actually done this himself, but he still could of hired some one to do it. If he had hired someone this is not what he expected to come down stairs and find. If Darin did stab Damon while Darlie is on the phone then it could go both ways. Meaning Darlie could not see or they did it togeather. I did go back to the 911 tape and there is no crying from Darlie just alot of noise. I realize people are so different but geesh I think I would be hysterical. If Darin did finish Damon off he needs to be on death row too.

 

[speedymama]

Hi Beesy, you are right if Darin had actually done this himself, but he still could of hired some one to do it. If he had hired someone this is not what he expected to come down stairs and find. If Darin did stab Damon while Darlie is on the phone then it could go both ways. Meaning Darlie could not see or they did it togeather. I did go back to the 911 tape and there is no crying from Darlie just alot of noise. I realize people are so different but geesh I think I would be hysterical. If Darin did finish Damon off he needs to be on death row too.

Hey Beesy, Yea this is not a movie but guess what they make movies out of real stories. Heeeeee:dance:

 

[speedymama]

I agree with you. Darin has to be more involved that they claim, but that does not mean that he picked up a knife and cut anyone. Maybe he just didn't stop it. Or maybe his participation was after the attacks. I have often wondered if he didn't stumble into the scene when Darlie was trying to clean up, and after the initial shock decide to help her for fear the police would never believe he wasn't a part of it. But something was going on when he was giving CPR to Devon, most likely knowing that he couldn't be helped, and both parents virtually ignoring Damon who was bleeding to death. Also, I have a hard time with the picture of Darin slipping over to take Damon's pulse just minutes before paramedics arrive, then scurrying back to his post at Devon's side. Either Darin is scared shi*tless or something very ugly is afoot.

Yea you are right what is that with them annoring Damon, he was alive nothing could be done for Devon, poor baby he was gone but why not thee other one, what were they afraid of??? Yea shi*tless and ugly. Could it be they did not want to look at that little face seeing the knowing in his eyes???:banghead:

 

[speedymama]

I glad you brought that up. I found another WTF in the 911 tape that I hadn't notice before ... somebody who did it intentionally walked in here and did it Darin (at 05:19:09). There's another time when she told Darin ... I saw them Darin (at 1:11:28).

So it's kinda like maybe Darin was questioning her in all the chaos. She seems really defensive toward Darin at the 05:10:09. Really defensive. She was also very clear there. And not in the high pitched voice either. Anybody else hear it that way, defensive toward Darin. The word "intentionally" really bothers me too.

I think I'll always notice something that blows me away everytime I hear that tape.[/QUOTe

I went back again and listened to the tape, I missed that before. You are right!
I am goig back and listen again and see if I hear anything else I missed. Thanks Justice2

 

[michelle]

I havent read all the posts but this case makes me ill, i cant believe what these poor babies went through, so was one of the boys still alive when she called 911?

 

[justice2]

I hadn't also notice how many OMG there was. Somebody brought that up just lately too. I'm going to go back and study how many and what kind, i.e., hysterical, or just sound like she is running around.

I also noticed that the MP3 file on justicefordarlie.net is a bigger file size than the one on fordarlieroutier.org. Does anybody know enough about mp3 and wav files to know if this is a big deal. I have to admit this is the first time I've worked with sound files.

As Snooty would say, me knows not like a lot about these things.