Body snatchers?

[DeeDee249]

IMO, UKGuy, JR had to abandon his original 'masterplan', because the events ended up playing out in a different manner than he had envisioned. I suspect the only reason he 'declined' the option he created in his masterplan - to get rid of the body - was because he had no choice at that point, and here are reasons why he HAD to bring up her body from the WC, IMO:

1. Arndt established she and, eventually, other backup officers were not going to leave the house - no reasonable way left for JR to move the body out of the house before decomposition and odor might give it all away. As it was, IIRC, reports said there was a faint smell of death odor already beginning.
2. Cadaver dogs had been summoned to the premises, but were being kept secured until or unless they were requested. With Arndt's experience, she might have begun to detect decomp and called for the dogs.
3. Since it was established FW had already checked the basement, and JR had disappeared for that morning time frame, if the dogs were then called in and did the 'finding', or even if Arndt had backup officers begin another search of the house for incriminating evidence when they arrived and they found her, GUESS WHO WOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY BEEN HAULED OFF!

No option for JR but to 'find' JB himself, and immediately begin the cross-finger pointing. :moo:

ITA. Arndt went "on the record" as saying when JB was brought up there was a distinct "odor of decay". The cadaver dogs would definitely have found her. I completely agree that, whatever the parents' original plan may have been, JR knew he had to "find" her before the dogs did. SO many of the "what-ifs" in this case could have been eliminated if Officer French had simply OPENED THAT DOOR. I hope he regrets this to the end of his life. The ONLY chance for an UNCONTAMINATED crime scene- with NO way for the fibers to be innocently explained (as if there were ANY way to do that). Blown forever because of one man's incompetence. When investigating a child kidnapping (which is what he thought it was at that point- when you search the house- YOU SEARCH THE HOUSE. Everywhere, even a closed or presumed locked door- you break it down of you have to. I mean, you're he *&^%$ police! OPEN THAT DOOR!

 

[DeeDee249]

Nom de plume,
During the autopsy Coroner Meyer stated he could not determine TOD. So the time you refer to must be when she was found.


.

Let's not forget that Mayer COULD have determined the TOD- he made a conscious decision NOT TO DO SO.
He never performed the TWO most important tests when a coroner first examines a body- especially a child murder victim. THE LIVER STAB- a body loses heat through the process of algor mortis at a very predictable rate in room temperatures. (even though she was in a basement, all indoor areas are considered "room temperature"). This would have given a fairly precise TOD, which combined with her stage of rigor mortis, would have been very accurate.
The drawing of a sample of the vitreous fluid of the eyeball - also a good indicator of TOD- potassium levels in the fluid are a very reliable indicator.
At the autopsy- the pineapple found in her small intestine was known to have taken about 2 hours to arrive there. ALL digestion STOPS at physical death. NOTHING further moves down the digestive tract. Feces is excreted at primary flaccidity ONLY if in the rectum- about to have been excreted when alive. The bladder empties at death.
Put it all together- the liver stab, eye fluid potassium levels, stage of rigor, and location of pineapple- and Mayer would have had a very precise TOD. This was not a badly decomposed body- she had been dead only about 20 hours when Mayer examined her. This was deliberate. He had to have been "advised" not to examine her closely and not to determine the TOD. He was no novice. This was a MURDER.

 

[UKGuy]

IMO, UKGuy, JR had to abandon his original 'masterplan', because the events ended up playing out in a different manner than he had envisioned. I suspect the only reason he 'declined' the option he created in his masterplan - to get rid of the body - was because he had no choice at that point, and here are reasons why he HAD to bring up her body from the WC, IMO:

1. Arndt established she and, eventually, other backup officers were not going to leave the house - no reasonable way left for JR to move the body out of the house before decomposition and odor might give it all away. As it was, IIRC, reports said there was a faint smell of death odor already beginning.
2. Cadaver dogs had been summoned to the premises, but were being kept secured until or unless they were requested. With Arndt's experience, she might have begun to detect decomp and called for the dogs.
3. Since it was established FW had already checked the basement, and JR had disappeared for that morning time frame, if the dogs were then called in and did the 'finding', or even if Arndt had backup officers begin another search of the house for incriminating evidence when they arrived and they found her, GUESS WHO WOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY BEEN HAULED OFF!

No option for JR but to 'find' JB himself, and immediately begin the cross-finger pointing. :moo:

midwest mama,
This is precisely my central objection to any postmortem masterplan. JR alike the Federal Reserve cannot predict the future.

I do think JR was behaving pragmatically, probably secretly removing or hiding forensic evidence he came across.

Did JR know cadaver dogs were on standby?

I agree, once JR knew the police were staying to secure the house, the game was up, he knew what he was doing when he found JonBenet, also it did not take long for FW to work out what was going on either.

Again I do not think the R's had a masterplan, they were just behaving pragmatically, reacting to events etc.

The most they could expect would have been to have been left with JonBenet still in the basement. With the police gone they could have disposed of JonBenet's body in whatever manner they decided.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Let's not forget that Mayer COULD have determined the TOD- he made a conscious decision NOT TO DO SO.
He never performed the TWO most important tests when a coroner first examines a body- especially a child murder victim. THE LIVER STAB- a body loses heat through the process of algor mortis at a very predictable rate in room temperatures. (even though she was in a basement, all indoor areas are considered "room temperature"). This would have given a fairly precise TOD, which combined with her stage of rigor mortis, would have been very accurate.
The drawing of a sample of the vitreous fluid of the eyeball - also a good indicator of TOD- potassium levels in the fluid are a very reliable indicator.
At the autopsy- the pineapple found in her small intestine was known to have taken about 2 hours to arrive there. ALL digestion STOPS at physical death. NOTHING further moves down the digestive tract. Feces is excreted at primary flaccidity ONLY if in the rectum- about to have been excreted when alive. The bladder empties at death.
Put it all together- the liver stab, eye fluid potassium levels, stage of rigor, and location of pineapple- and Mayer would have had a very precise TOD. This was not a badly decomposed body- she had been dead only about 20 hours when Mayer examined her. This was deliberate. He had to have been "advised" not to examine her closely and not to determine the TOD. He was no novice. This was a MURDER.

DeeDee249,
I do agree. Meyers lack of rigor and neglect of standard procedures opens his behaviour to question.

As you outline this was a homicide, yet at autopsy, he reused instruments probably tranferring unknown dna onto JonBenet.

These two aspects do make it appear that Meyer's behaviour was intentional.

I was very surprised he never even offered an estimate for TOD.


.

 

[midwest mama]

UKGuy - your posted comments in blue:

This is precisely my central objection to any postmortem masterplan. JR alike the Federal Reserve cannot predict the future.

Of course not, but since I see JR as being a first class narcissist, I believe HE THOUGHT he knew exactly the way things should work out. A narcissist believes what they tell themselves - in JR's mind, he had predetermined how the event would go, and was expecting it to do just that. However, I must admit that as an accomplished businessman, he probably had a back-up plan ready - but even that plan would have been one he assumed would work perfectly. He created it, no reason for it not to, in his mind. There are no options for differences of circumstances in the mind of a convinced narcissist. And if they are proved wrong, it is such a shock to them, it has to be someone else's fault, in their mind's eye, that something went awry.

I do think JR was behaving pragmatically, probably secretly removing or hiding forensic evidence he came across.

Yes, and possibly passing some of it off to those who came to the "kidnap party" to get rid of later.

Did JR know cadaver dogs were on standby?

Kolar said he was upstairs at one time using binoculars to study the street.
If you saw the Aphrodite Jones program, you must have seen what a zoo it was that day out on the street, and the amount of police vehicles, etc. How could he NOT have been advised what type of police activity was going on, or why would he not question what they were doing if he was taking the time to scan things with binoculars?

I agree, once JR knew the police were staying to secure the house, the game was up, he knew what he was doing when he found JonBenet, also it did not take long for FW to work out what was going on either.

SO TRUE!

Again I do not think the R's had a masterplan, they were just behaving pragmatically, reacting to events etc.

OMG - Could I interest you in purchasing a piece of the Brooklyn Bridge?

The most they could expect would have been to have been left with JonBenet still in the basement. With the police gone they could have disposed of JonBenet's body in whatever manner they decided.

You can bet they were PRAYING the police would LEAVE them with JB's body in the basement, just so they surely could have disposed of her body, after all. I will always believe they intended to get her out of the house. :moo:

 

[Nom de plume]

Let's not forget that Mayer COULD have determined the TOD- he made a conscious decision NOT TO DO SO.
He never performed the TWO most important tests when a coroner first examines a body- especially a child murder victim. THE LIVER STAB- a body loses heat through the process of algor mortis at a very predictable rate in room temperatures. (even though she was in a basement, all indoor areas are considered "room temperature"). This would have given a fairly precise TOD, which combined with her stage of rigor mortis, would have been very accurate.
The drawing of a sample of the vitreous fluid of the eyeball - also a good indicator of TOD- potassium levels in the fluid are a very reliable indicator.
At the autopsy- the pineapple found in her small intestine was known to have taken about 2 hours to arrive there. ALL digestion STOPS at physical death. NOTHING further moves down the digestive tract. Feces is excreted at primary flaccidity ONLY if in the rectum- about to have been excreted when alive. The bladder empties at death.
Put it all together- the liver stab, eye fluid potassium levels, stage of rigor, and location of pineapple- and Mayer would have had a very precise TOD. This was not a badly decomposed body- she had been dead only about 20 hours when Mayer examined her. This was deliberate. He had to have been "advised" not to examine her closely and not to determine the TOD. He was no novice. This was a MURDER.

DeeDee, or anyone else, where did that time of 1:00 - 3:00 am TOD come from if not the AR or the ME? I've heard that so many times. Was it simply from livor & rigor? TIA

 

[BOESP]

JB had an open casket for the wake/viewing. She was in a pageant dress with a tiara. The funeral, of course, always has a closed casket. The funeral and viewing are not the same thing.

DeeDee, I swear I don't lie awake at night trying to think up things with which to be disagreeable. :innocent:

However, I am from the South. As far back as I can clearly remember (which is the early 1950s), we have always had open-casket funerals. Some go as far as taking pictures of the deceased in the casket. There is also a final walk-around viewing after the funeral is "preached," where visitors go by the open casket to pay final respects followed by a final viewing by the family behind a pulled curtain, at which time the casket is closed and everyone that wants to goes to the cemetery for the burial. The only exceptions I recall are if the deceased was severely disfigured or for families who moved here from other regions. :twocents:

 

[Nom de plume]

DeeDee, I swear I don't lie awake at night trying to think up things with which to be disagreeable. :innocent:

However, I am from the South. As far back as I can clearly remember (which is the early 1950s), we have always had open-casket funerals. Some go as far as taking pictures of the deceased in the casket. There is also a final walk-around viewing after the funeral is "preached," where visitors go by the open casket to pay final respects followed by a final viewing by the family behind a pulled curtain, at which time the casket is closed and everyone that wants to goes to the cemetery for the burial. The only exceptions I recall are if the deceased was severely disfigured or for families who moved here from other regions. :twocents:

ITA I was surprised when they had a closeed casket funeral for JB with PR being a southerner. i know they had an open viewing though.

 

[AD0086]

JB had an open casket for the wake/viewing. She was in a pageant dress with a tiara. The funeral, of course, always has a closed casket. The funeral and viewing are not the same thing.

Eh. I've been to quite a few funerals with an open casket. I thought that was traditional! \

ITA I was surprised when they had a closeed casket funeral for JB with PR being a southerner. i know they had an open viewing though.

Perhaps it had something to do with the media and they just didn't want the pictures? Wasn't the funeral livestreamed or something along those lines? I do remember seeing pictures inside the church. Maybe I'm confusing JB's service with another one. Was her obit ever released?

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, or anyone else, where did that time of 1:00 - 3:00 am TOD come from if not the AR or the ME? I've heard that so many times. Was it simply from livor & rigor? TIA

The TOD on the written autopsy is 1:30 PM- the coroner used the time of day on the afternoon of the 26th when she was brought up from the basement.

If you are referring to the TOD that we discuss here as being the generally accepted OBVIOUS TOD, it has always been between midnight and 1 am. I have never seen 3 am mentioned. This TOD is fairly easy to determine based on her stage of rigor mortis when she was found combined with the location of the pineapple as well as the time the family arrived home. Put it all together and the coroner could have come up with the same thing even without the liver stab and potassium testing on the eye. That he CHOSE not to do so can only be seen as a ploy to further cloud the case.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy - your posted comments in blue:

Of course not, but since I see JR as being a first class narcissist, I believe HE THOUGHT he knew exactly the way things should work out. A narcissist believes what they tell themselves - in JR's mind, he had predetermined how the event would go, and was expecting it to do just that. However, I must admit that as an accomplished businessman, he probably had a back-up plan ready - but even that plan would have been one he assumed would work perfectly. He created it, no reason for it not to, in his mind. There are no options for differences of circumstances in the mind of a convinced narcissist. And if they are proved wrong, it is such a shock to them, it has to be someone else's fault, in their mind's eye, that something went awry.


Yes, and possibly passing some of it off to those who came to the "kidnap party" to get rid of later.


Kolar said he was upstairs at one time using binoculars to study the street.
If you saw the Aphrodite Jones program, you must have seen what a zoo it was that day out on the street, and the amount of police vehicles, etc. How could he NOT have been advised what type of police activity was going on, or why would he not question what they were doing if he was taking the time to scan things with binoculars?

SO TRUE!


OMG - Could I interest you in purchasing a piece of the Brooklyn Bridge?





You can bet they were PRAYING the police would LEAVE them with JB's body in the basement, just so they surely could have disposed of her body, after all. I will always believe they intended to get her out of the house. :moo:

midwest mama,

Of course not, but since I see JR as being a first class narcissist, I believe HE THOUGHT he knew exactly the way things should work out. A narcissist believes what they tell themselves - in JR's mind, he had predetermined how the event would go, and was expecting it to do just that.

It may or may not be the case that that JR was a narcissist, regardless of what he thought, how come you have priveleged access to his mind?

Kolar said he was upstairs at one time using binoculars to study the street.

So you cannot determine if he knew cadaver dogs were on standby?

OMG - Could I interest you in purchasing a piece of the Brooklyn Bridge?

Everyone blows up now and again, its not a disaster or the end of the world etc, so to flannel the Brooklyn Bridge is alike the London Bridge, nice try but intellectually redundant. How about adressing the argument and not a bridge?


As a postscript what you believe and what JR believed need not coincide!

.

 

[midwest mama]

It may or may not be the case that that JR was a narcissist, regardless of what he thought, how come you have priveleged access to his mind?

Oh, believe me I would never even pretend to have access to JR's mind, specifically, and I could never consider that process a privilege. This is a forum of opinions, and mine are based upon what I suspect about this case according to what I know. Based on what I know about the narcissistic personality, it is my opinion that JR is a narcissist. And because it is my opinion that he is, I BELIEVE JR to have been capable of orchestrating within his own mind, a scenario that he could envision happening, which is typical behavior of a narcissist. I apologize if my original statement led you, or anyone else to believe that I had any first hand, actual knowledge of what JR might have been thinking at any time with regard to his daughter's death.

So you cannot determine if he knew cadaver dogs were on standby?

Of course not, but with his level of intelligence and his display of demeanor which has been reported to the public, again, I would suspect he was keeping informed as to the activities of the police. After all, the R's did call them for help, and it seems very likely that they would want to know what actions the police were considering as "help" for them during this time, since that is what they were expecting. Again, I am basing my opinion on what I suspect someone might do in such circumstances.

Everyone blows up now and again, its not a disaster or the end of the world etc, so to flannel the Brooklyn Bridge is alike the London Bridge, nice try but intellectually redundant. How about adressing the argument and not a bridge?

Sorry, guess I must be intellectually redundant enough to not be able to respond to arguable statements with more diplomatic reserve. My intellect usually works quite well for me, thank you, and if not for others at times, well.......it is what it is.

As a postscript what you believe and what JR believed need not coincide!

Take it to the bank, what JR believed and what I believe - about most everything - would probably NEVER coincide.

And, for that matter, we each have beliefs that we should expect might not coincide with another's at any given time. That is the nature of free will and free thinking. :moo:

 

[Chrishope]

Patsy's own words tell the reason of the importance of the note when she stated 'Thank god they left a ransom note..... Because they left some evidence!'

And even after it being pointed out/asked of her during testimony that with JonBenet being found murdered in the house - did it still seem like a kidnapping... Patsy said, 'It seemed like kidnapping to me.'

No reconsideration at that point of it being a non-legit note by the Ramseys themselves, with their daughter left there... Everyone else seeing the obvious bogus staging of a ransom note with a body left behind, but not the Ramseys. They insisted it still looked like a kidnapping to them, and didn't question the logic of the scenario, didn't want to know more about the murder and specific condition or injuries to JonBenet, and stated the ransom note's utmost importance - to Patsy, that is, was that it was evidence - of an intruder for kidnapping for ransom... Not that it may have been staged evidence that wasn't real since their daughter was in the house anyway... But evidence that it was a kidnapping. By someone else.

This tells us the reason for the ransom note. In Patsy's own words.

If Patsy says she still believes it was a kidnapping due to the 'evidence' of the ransom note, despite the real evidence of the body, I think we know all we need to know about the reason for the ransom note.

In the ransom note writer's eyes, it explains the reason for the dead child, and it's supposed to not be due to anyone in the house, even though the dead child is still in the house.

This is Patsy's logic and her priorities and value system, not ours.

Just because it doesn't make sense to leave the body in the house along with a kidnapping ransom note to us, it still makes sense to Patsy, as stated in her own words, per her testimony.

It is what it is.

It's impossible to say what was in the author's mind. However, if the author was still even remotely dealing with reality, then the author would have to know the note does not explain the body in the WC.

The body and note being found together (e.g. in the same house within hours of one another) is fundamentally inconsistent with a real kidnapping. There is no getting around that, other than to speculate that the author's mind was no longer firing on all cylinders.

It seems far more likely the note was part of a plan that included dumping the body. A plan which was short-circuited before it could be completed.

 

[UKGuy]

It's impossible to say what was in the author's mind. However, if the author was still even remotely dealing with reality, then the author would have to know the note does not explain the body in the WC.

The body and note being found together (e.g. in the same house within hours of one another) is fundamentally inconsistent with a real kidnapping. There is no getting around that, other than to speculate that the author's mind was no longer firing on all cylinders.

It seems far more likely the note was part of a plan that included dumping the body. A plan which was short-circuited before it could be completed.

Chrishope,
Why do your posts remind me of the Kennedy assassination, except yours is a decade late?

The ransom note, considered as staging, is intended to explain why JonBenet's body travelled from her bedroom to, including accompanying forensic evidence, to the wine-cellar.

It was never intended as part of some postmortem masterplan as outlined by some theorists, simply because the Ramsey's alike you cannot predict the future never mind tomorrow's weather!

So the authors mind may have been firing on all cylinders, which included the assumption, that some people might actually believe the contents of the ransom note?

.

 

[wengr]

Some thoughts:
Seems to me that the contents of the wine cellar and the suitcase are oddly similiar.

Jb was insulated from the dirty floor with a blanket, and a toy placed with her. At the same time in the suitcase we have a blanket which would serve the same function, and a child's book which would serve the same function. Instead of wondering why a collage age male would have a childrens book in his suitcase, it seems to me that we should acknowledge Occam's razor and consider that the contents of the suitcase being functionally equivalent to the staged winecellar is a very unlikely coincidence.

Now consider that this coincidence occurs within a suitcase? On the very morning that the R's were to be traveling and would be expected to be transporting luggage? Methinks someone was intending to deposit her elswhere and for reasons unknown it did not happen.

 

[UKGuy]

Some thoughts:
Seems to me that the contents of the wine cellar and the suitcase are oddly similiar.

Jb was insulated from the dirty floor with a blanket, and a toy placed with her. At the same time in the suitcase we have a blanket which would serve the same function, and a child's book which would serve the same function. Instead of wondering why a collage age male would have a childrens book in his suitcase, it seems to me that we should acknowledge Occam's razor and consider that the contents of the suitcase being functionally equivalent to the staged winecellar is a very unlikely coincidence.

Now consider that this coincidence occurs within a suitcase? On the very morning that the R's were to be traveling and would be expected to be transporting luggage? Methinks someone was intending to deposit her elswhere and for reasons unknown it did not happen.

wengr,
You could be correct here. I've tried out a few scenarios for the suitcase, and three seem to make sense:

1. Relocate JonBenet in the suitcase away from the house.

2. Take JonBenet on the flight, in the suitcase, and dump her in another state?

3. Stage JonBenet in the suitcase, but left behind, for whatever reason?

If any fibers from JonBenet's white gap top are in that suitcase then we have another theory.

.

 

[midwest mama]

How could the R's have waited until their flight as a family on the 26th to dispose of the suitcase or make the excuse they left her behind? They were slated to meet up with the older kids in Minneapolis. How would they have explained JB being missing?

The only way I can imagine a flight being used for the dump, is to use the plane to relocate the suitcase/body as part of playing out the mechanics of the ransom note. Perhaps if JR would have had to fly away to deliver the ransom money, during which time he could have dumped the suitcase as well?

 

[Whaleshark]

It's impossible to say what was in the author's mind. However, if the author was still even remotely dealing with reality, then the author would have to know the note does not explain the body in the WC.

The body and note being found together (e.g. in the same house within hours of one another) is fundamentally inconsistent with a real kidnapping. There is no getting around that, other than to speculate that the author's mind was no longer firing on all cylinders.

It seems far more likely the note was part of a plan that included dumping the body. A plan which was short-circuited before it could be completed.

Well you ARE saying that Patsy was not running on all cylinders then, because as I pointed out, when she was asked in testimony if it still seemed like a kidnapping, with the body found in the house, she said that it seemed like a kidnapping to her!

That was my point, Chris. She does not budge on that. She needs us to believe that she believes that scenario looked like a kidnapping to her, because of how she/they staged it. If she did not have a part in staging it that way, she would not have insisted that it still looked like a kidnapping to her... Even when it was obvious to everyone else. I can repost her exact words if you like, but she said them. She said the crime still seemed like a kidnapping to her, even faced with the illogical scenario of her daughter's murdered body in her own basement and a staged ransom note in the house.

Why? Was she running on all cylinders or not, Chris?

P.S. .... AND, Patsy even said, 'Thank god they left a note....because they left some evidence!'

What does this tell you about the importance of the note and the reason for a dead child found in the house?! She thinks it is GOOD that there is a note left, even if it does not mesh with the real evidence on the scene. 1) Patsy insists that it still looks like a kidnapping to her, even with the body and a note there, including the absurd content of the note, and 2) she thinks it is great that there is a note!!

Come on now...
Either she is really not running on all cylinders, or she was too confident in her murder cover-up staging abilities.

 

[DeeDee249]

Eh. I've been to quite a few funerals with an open casket. I thought that was traditional! \



Perhaps it had something to do with the media and they just didn't want the pictures? Wasn't the funeral livestreamed or something along those lines? I do remember seeing pictures inside the church. Maybe I'm confusing JB's service with another one. Was her obit ever released?

When I speak of a funeral, I refer to the church service and graveside rituals and burial. I have never seen an open coffin in church or at graveside. I have only ever seen open coffins at the viewing, which is usually in a funeral home or parlor but can be in a private home.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Eh. I've been to quite a few funerals with an open casket. I thought that was traditional! \



Perhaps it had something to do with the media and they just didn't want the pictures? Wasn't the funeral livestreamed or something along those lines? I do remember seeing pictures inside the church. Maybe I'm confusing JB's service with another one. Was her obit ever released?

There are pictures and video of the family outside the funeral service in Atlanta. The funeral wasn't shown live on TV though. I believe the pictures you saw of inside the service was actually from the memorial service held in Boulder. Was Santa McReynolds in the pictures you saw?

Here's JBR's obit:

December 31, 1996

JonBenet Patricia Ramsey of Boulder died Thursday, December 26, 1996, at home, the victim of homocide. She was 6.

She was born August 6, 1990, in Atlanta, Georgia, the daughter of John B. Ramsey and Patricia Paugh Ramsey. She attented High Peaks Elementary School and was a member of St. John's Episcopal Church of Boulder. She moved from Atlanta to Boulder in 1991.

Survivors include her parents of Boulder; maternal grandparents Don and Nedra Paugh of Atlanta; paternal step-grandparents, Richard and Irene Wills of Sun City; two brothers, Burke Ramsey and John Andrew Ramsey, both of Boulder; and a sister, Melinda Ramsey of Atlanta. A sister, Beth Ramsey died in 1992.

A funeral service will be held at 10 AM, today at the Peachtree Presbyterian Church in Atlanta. Interment will follow St. John's Episcopal Cemetery of Marietta. Contributions may be made at St. John's Episcopal Church, 1419 Pine St., Boulder 80302 or to High Peaks Elementary School in care of Crist Mortuary, 3395 Penrose Place, Boulder 80301.

It was published December 31. And the R's were on CNN 24 hours later. -_-