Bosma Murder Trial 04.07.16 - Day 32

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"Dungey suggests the only time you tried to be truthful was bc a lawyer told you you were in deep trouble. Judge says not to go there.

Anyone care to speculate the hidden message? Are they being charged with theft? Or threatened to be charged with AATF?

MOO
 
I am bugged by a display of emotion from a man repeatedly being characterized as "snivelling".
 
Like many here, I feel for MH. But at the same time, it's time to grow up.

This is a very serious case, and the Bosma family have been, and will be crying for a very long time for their lost loved one.
MOO

And some young, stupid kid that made some really horrible choices a few years ago is probably now quite understandably humiliated to have all his past transgressions exposed in court. Yes I know he's an adult now but the point is, HE isn't the one on trial. Nor did he have a thing to do with the horrifying crime that ripped Tim out of this world, aside from being dumb enough to think DM was actually his friend. When a grown man is bawling on the witness stand for his unwitting part after the fact, it seems rather cold hearted to mock him for it.

But that's just my opinion.
 
Oh, we're returning to the 'he was too rich to steal stuff' narrative.

It was all just boyish shenanigans!

Yeah, ok.

IMO I think I know now who stole my metal estate sign I'd had for only a year, and solar lights--Ali Dellen and his 40 thieves--out on a boyish prank. I've said to people "Who would do this?" "Who wants a sign with someone else's address on it?" LE if you find my $200 estate sign in the stash, let me know. I'd like it back. Things like this don't get insurance money back.

I've wrapped new solar lights in rose bush branches so if anyone tries to lift them they will get pricked. It's dark where I live and need to see my driveway.
 
Here is my take on the DM defence. All DM missions are carefully calculated and result in success. If something goes wrong such as somebody getting killed then it was obviously someone else responsible because DM is much too clever to make mistakes. He's just a big joker having fun with friends.
 
"Dungey suggests the only time you tried to be truthful was bc a lawyer told you you were in deep trouble. Judge says not to go there.

Anyone care to speculate the hidden message? Are they being charged with theft? Or threatened to be charged with AATF?

MOO

Judge Goodman said "not to go there" because anything that MH spoke to his lawyer about is covered under solicitor-client privilege. JMO.
 
Just read Molly Hayes quotes on twitter. Is it possible for someone to post them. I have to head out to work. The quotes from court just before the break. This is part of it. "And he didn't know what to do," Hagerman says. Dungey asks if it occurred to them to go to police. Hagerman says "that got brought up."
 
Exactly! To me it is going to backfire. All this time he has been trying to establish that DM had money and didn't need to steal a truck. Now he is pushing this line of questioning which I feel is solidifying the point that they did these things for thrills and excitement NOT for reasons related to money. If DM had all this money, why steal a bobcat, lawnmowers, trees etc. etc. etc. So we have a pattern of theft despite the Defense spending all this time trying to establish that he didn't need to steal. Seems like a pretty significant contradiction. MOO

But he's pointing out he had no conscience and did thefts, etc. for the thrill. Others have called this a "thrill kill" and perhaps it was. The ante was moved up a notch. Further it shows "planning." If all he wanted was the truck, why didn't he wait for an opportunity to steal it from the guy's garage while he and his wife were at work or from a parking lot, etc.? Why take the owner with him? Why look over their shoulder when driving with Igor, once he told them he was in the army? They didn't have masks on, did they really think they could drop someone off the side of the road and not have them report them and describe them?
 
Is this going to affect MH's job? He apparently works as a bartender/bar back. Being a bartender involves handling a lot of money each night.

IMO That's one possible consequence of his actions. Actions have consequences so too bad. IMO
 
I am bugged by a display of emotion from a man repeatedly being characterized as "snivelling".

I'm sure the word is used by TD in a calculating way and though it may come across as distasteful, he is there to unnerve and discredit anyone who appears to be testifying on DM's behalf, even if a Crown witness. TD would not want to come across as sympathetic or weak with this important witness, MH, IMO.

Personally, after almost three years I would expect to see more anger expressed toward DM by MH and not so many tears for DM or for himself and how the situation affects either of them. MH does come across to me as remorseful, but he still shows loyalty to DM in his testimony and I get the sense he knows more but is unwilling to share more on the stand. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

All MOO.
 
Sorry for the flood of upcoming posts but I thought I would go back and at least paste some tweets, all from Susan Clairmont...

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
And we're back. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Dungey up. Missions, "the one's Millard's counsel think we're a big joke." Hagerman: "anything that's criminal is not a joke."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Hagerman says these missions were serious and he was scared. Also says he can't remember actually taking the money. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
"It was just a bad moment in my life." Says money wasn't the incentive.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
He says was "a little" surprised to get texts about missions. Then backtracks and said he wasn't surprised because it had happened before.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
"Two or three times," he says. The ones in October 2012. But Dungey reminds him of the Halloween theft of flowers before that with Millard.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
You lied to the police through three statements, Dungey says. Hagerman agrees but disagrees he was doing it to protect Millard.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Says he was protecting himself. Dungey says that's not true. Friends their whole lives. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Hagerman says Millatd gave him toolbox maybe because they were good friends or because they lived near to each other.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Dungey says what would be the big deal if Millard had drugs? He'd always had party drugs. Why drop them off at 4 am?

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Dungey suggests Hagerman knew it wasn't drugs. Because if it was, "what's the big deal?"

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Hagerman says his friend is charged in #Bosma case and "it scared the hell out of me."
 
Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Dungey calls him "a little criminal" who never cared about committing crimes. "I cared about this situation," insists Hagerman. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
You knew Millard was charged with murder, says Dungey. But you don't question what's in the toolbox? Pillay objects, not murder charge then.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
"I was scared of getting my name out there." Dungey "You had no consideration for the #Bosma family." Hagerman says called CrimeStoppers.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Dungey: you suspected Millard had done more than steal Bosma truck. Why not call police? Hagerman: "I made a mistake."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Crimestoppers can't be traced, says Dungey. Hagerman says he told CS about Smich and farm. " What are you snivelling about?" Shouts Dungey.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Judge warns him to "lower the tenor." Dungey quieter now,. Hagerman crying.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Lied more than 40 times to police, says Dungey. Hagerman agrees.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Lied even about when Millard contacted him. And about something being dropped off.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
"You don't care about #Bosma at all, do you?" "No, I do care." Says he lied beside he didn't want to be a part of it. He knew nothing.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Dungey again berates him for "snivelling" and says he had chance to help police and didn't.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
"In my 4th testimony (statement) I told them everything." Each time said he'd told them everything. He lied.
 
Are you back now, meter? Right now the Adam Carter feed is dead still, but my attention keeps wandering and I may miss its resumption.
 
Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
"it was never a joke to me. I was scared. Never at any point was I trying to protect Dellen."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Toolbox: "I thought it was insignificant to the case." Never though Millard could do something like this.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago

After third statement realized "toolbox was locked and anything could be in there."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
Dungey says Hagerman afraid of his own criminal activities coming out to police. "I did stupid things when I was young." Says he's ashamed.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 60m60 minutes ago
By last statement to police, Millard was now charged with murder.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 58m58 minutes ago
He should've told police about the "thieving," says Hagerman. "I buried them. They're bad memories from my past. I don't do that any more."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 57m57 minutes ago
Millard watching intently, Smich also.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 57m57 minutes ago
Hagerman wasn't offering any additional info to police.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 56m56 minutes ago
"I have nothing to hide. You can ask me anything," he says now.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 55m55 minutes ago
"I was there to talk about the toolbox and the situation with Tim #Bosma." Never told of theft missions.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 55m55 minutes ago
Dungey says Hagerman wouldn't have been so afraid if he truly thought it was just drugs in the toolbox.
 
I feel bad for MH, I mean, he clearly feels bad about what happened. I think it was acceptable to ask him the questions TD did, minus the snivelling one's because he did lie and this is a serious situation. I think this was probably a wake-up call for him albeit a terrible one. To an extent, I understand where he was coming from. He probably did not know about the case, was sketched out about it and did not want DM to rat him out for all the things he'd done in the past. He was young and stupid and reckless. He was doing questionable things and hanging out with questionable people. This raises the question of how much blame should we place on him for making a terrible decision, even if he feels guilty and it's eating away at him? I also keep thinking how many lives were ruined by this senseless murder, TB's family (of course) but also DM and MS's families, girlfriends and friends. No one wants to have to testify at a murder trial, if I was close to the person who committed the crime I seriously do not know what I'd do. I'd have serious trust issues for a very long time. Knowing someone, loving them and having them do these kinds of things, it's absolutely unthinkable.
 
Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 54m54 minutes ago
"There was different narcotics in the toolbox" besides weed, Hagerman says of seeing toolbox open at parties.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 52m52 minutes ago
Hagerman: "Right now you telling me this is he only time it's crossed my mind."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 51m51 minutes ago
Hagerman says he was afraid because #Bosma hadn't been found. "I never thought in my wildest dreams that ...Dellen would own a gun."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 50m50 minutes ago
Why make "joke" about guns in the toolbox. "It's become a very ironic joke now," says Hagerman.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 50m50 minutes ago

Why make "joke" about guns in the toolbox. "It's become a very ironic joke now," says Hagerman.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 50m50 minutes ago
Dungey accuses him of obstructing justice. Hagerman agrees.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 50m50 minutes ago
"I was not protecting him once." He and Michalski made "a pact" to dump stuff and step away.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 48m48 minutes ago
After 3rd statement "long conversation with my dad" about what might have been in toolbox. "There's a lot of things I regret I didn't do."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 46m46 minutes ago
Told dad what had happened and realized THEN that he may have important info for police. "Yes, I swear," says Hagerman.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 46m46 minutes ago
Dungey says through three statements he never came clean and helped police.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 44m44 minutes ago
Crown correcting a date: Millard charged with murder May 15...May 9 Millard tells Hagerman he's "feeling some heat."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 43m43 minutes ago
Hagerman says he thought maybe someone was going to visit Maplegate house and Millard needed to get his drugs out. #Bosma
 
Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 41m41 minutes ago
Millard asks him to take toolbox for two weeks, comes at 4 am..."You're not that naive," says Dungey. "You're an admitted liar."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 41m41 minutes ago
Dungey asks why we should believe him about anything?

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 39m39 minutes ago
Going to May 30 statement. Hagerman asks "what is it?" In toolbox. Millard said "it's just a toolbox." Millard refused to tell him.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 38m38 minutes ago
Hagerman made a joke about a bomb inside toolbox.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 36m36 minutes ago
Hagerman says it was just yesterday that "I finally let go of that assumption" that it was drugs in toolbox.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 36m36 minutes ago
Hagerman says it was just yesterday that "I finally let go of that assumption" that it was drugs in toolbox.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 35m35 minutes ago
Dungey asks " Are you feeling sorry for yourself?" Hagerman: "knowing what I know now I could have changed the conclusion. I've been...

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 35m35 minutes ago
"...thinking about this for 3 years." He's openly weeping.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 33m33 minutes ago
Between questions. Courtroom silent.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 32m32 minutes ago
He and Michalski panic after hearing news of Millard arrest on radio. Connecting him to #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 31m31 minutes ago
They decide together to dump box and bag in stairwell.
 
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