Bosma Murder Trial 04.25.16 - Day 39

[Inspector_North]

Not sure what your point is by quoting this?

Her assessment of everything is all over the map. Just watch tomorrow as Dungey leads her. When she is pushed on almost every subject, it changed. This post is her assessment before being lead to answer to abuse as DM's defense wanted it to sound.

I am just not sure we can assess the level of abuse. If folks here that are livid about the abuse are correct, he deserves life just for that IMO. I not only question the severity of abuse at the hands of MS while being lead by the defense, but also her sincerity about the Bosma family. She has and continues to lie, and that is not good IMO.

 

[Inspector_North]

It is the norm.
We had a male witness testify that Mark had some anger/temper issues. (Paraphrase) 'Mark makes me nervous' . BD said 'Mark got angry, and he felt intimidated by MS'.
BD didn`t tell the 'whole truth' because he didnt want to be a snitch. Then was questioned by Pillay in an easy manner as to why :
' You didn`t have time to think about your options'. As Pillay said. BD agreed.
No one batted an eye. BD lied to Police, and told the truth later. Even on the stand, he might of been shielding some truths.

A woman says he is abusive after being asked, and boom,...we question the credibility.
She changes her story,...well,...she should of had better morals. No one lies at 19.:thinking:
She goes by a code (doesnt want to snitch)......and she is a fool.
She says she has gone on with her life,....yet the defence tries to break her credibility down even more.

I am far from thinking MM is a saint, ......I am not looking to break bread with her anytime soon.
However, the Court Of Morals is a little hard on her in comparison to a 'best friend' who gave advice on how to hide a gun, sell a gun, etc.

Don't forget that AM also claimed to be afraid of MS when he called with the drug escape orders. And you're not being fair about questioning credibility. Many of us here have questioned the whole bunch of them. That's what sleuthers do when there are inconsistencies, male or female. MOO

 

[Bsafe]

Millard would tell Smich he should get a licence, Sachak says. He'd also tell him to get a job - but that didn't happen, Sachak says. He also told him to stop drinking so much. Meneses agrees.
by Adam Carter 2:34 PM

Sachak now asking about Saturday, May 4.
by Adam Carter 2:36 PM

"Dellen didn't make it a secret that he was going to steal a truck. It was there for you to see and hear, right?" Sachak asks. "Right," Meneses says.
by Adam Carter 2:36 PM

BBM You've got to be kidding me

 

[Inspector_North]

BBM You've got to be kidding me

It's probably the only sliver of hope to get DM off of a first degree. Make MS look like a woman beating angry dope smoking rap rhyming unpredictable punk who DM was trying to turn into a respectable thief. MOO

 

[mozzagirl]

It's probably the only sliver of hope to get DM off of a first degree. Make MS look like a woman beating angry dope smoking rap rhyming unpredictable punk who DM was trying to turn into a respectable thief. MOO

BBM. That made me laugh. What an oxymoron!

 

[mozzagirl]

This is my first time closely following a trial so some of it seems so out there to me. Like the defence trying to make any witnesses they can look like horrible people, while their own client sits there on murder charges. I understand why they do it but it seems so backwards. Cast someone, who isn't charged, in a horrible light to make your client look more innocent. :gaah:

IMO, yes all these friends of DM and MS definitely should have said or done something to go to LE and be honest. But even if they did, it doesn't make MS or DM any less guilty of what they did. I think that is what irritates me about the defence giving these witnesses such a hard time about not coming forward. If BD, AM, MH, or MM went to LE and told the truth, does that make either of the two less guilty?! Nope. So that part of cross feels like a total waste of court time IMO.

 

[brightii]

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/smich-s...er-to-not-know-the-truth-jury-hears-1.2874255

http://www.cp24.com/news/live-blog-...ourthouse-at-the-bosma-murder-trial-1.2873451

CTV Kitchener and CP24 videos about MM's testimony today.

All MOO.

 

[Inspector_North]

"Jurors heard that Smich called her names, sometimes in front of other people, and hit her."

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/smich-s-girlfriend-thought-it-was-better-to-not-know-the-truth-jury-hears-1.2874255

 

[iknowhim2]

Now this statement I might throw bricks at. She testified to abuse herself. That is proof enough. Too many people never believe the victim! Of course he would have some days he'd act good. That's actually a trait of a sociopath anyhow. MOO OMG.

She is not on trial here. She's a part of one. While we may not like how she went about things, even those of us close to this case, would hope that no one would revictimize a victim. Or doubt fear, not having anywhere to go, drugs being held over your head, taking part in illegal selling etc. No matter why the abuse, it is NO ones job to discredit her. Think what YOU want, she is not on trial.

 

[deugirtni]

It's probably the only sliver of hope to get DM off of a first degree. Make MS look like a woman beating angry dope smoking rap rhyming unpredictable punk who DM was trying to turn into a respectable thief. MOO

Make MS look like a woman beating, angry, dope smoking, rap rhyming, unpredictable, gun-toting, drug-dealing, scary, mama's-boy, scaredy-cat, bromancing, thieving, patsy, pimping, punk with an inability to hold down a job or make an honest living, living off the avails of his 19-year-old-girlfriend's minimum wage job, war-mongering-video-game-addict who DM was trying to turn into a respectable thief with a beginner's driver's license, who he could put in his service and make into his fall-guy. moo

 

[CJPRINCESS]

"Jurors heard that Smich called her names, sometimes in front of other people, and hit her."

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/smich-s-girlfriend-thought-it-was-better-to-not-know-the-truth-jury-hears-1.2874255

And that was what I was saying. She was called names in front of people, not hit in front of other people. Normally an abuser won't physically hit their partner in front others but they will degrade them with words in front of anyone!

 

[ThelmaLouise]

I am being as fair as anyone, Inspector_North. We are all pulling at the spider-web. The best way to sleuth with objectivity, is to step outside the box.

You forget, Sachek used the term: 'Horrific'. Not Meneses. Meneses has to decide in the moment to agree or disagree.
So every question, for every witness, they have to decide if it leans enough towards the truth, or more towards an untruth, even if they don`t like the language or the phrasing.
BD used the terms 'intimidating' and that Mark made him(BD) nervous.
Arthur has been described as ' Marks *itch'.

If it was just her,..I would question it more. I would be hard-pressed to believe her, actually.
Since we have at least 2 other people, pointing out that he is at the LEAST, a bully (which is a type of abuser) plus a murder charge, I think it`s safe to say he might of used some type of abuse to push her into things.
I also look at his own words via texts. Except for Dellen, everyone is a means to an end, for this guy.

When we have a lot of people hiding things, the only way we can begin to thread the truth, is to line up the consistencies. Everything else is unnecessary drama and bias. In my opinion, I see a consistant pattern of a guy who bullies and loves to use people.

 

[Satchie]

This is my first time closely following a trial so some of it seems so out there to me. Like the defence trying to make any witnesses they can look like horrible people, while their own client sits there on murder charges. I understand why they do it but it seems so backwards. Cast someone, who isn't charged, in a horrible light to make your client look more innocent. :gaah:

You are right, it's not nice. This is from wikipedia: "The adversarial system is the two-sided structure under which criminal trial courts operate that pits the prosecution against the defense. Justice is done when the most effective adversary is able to convince the judge or jury that his or her perspective on the case is the correct one." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adversarial_system

IMO, yes all these friends of DM and MS definitely should have said or done something to go to LE and be honest. But even if they did, it doesn't make MS or DM any less guilty of what they did. I think that is what irritates me about the defence giving these witnesses such a hard time about not coming forward. If BD, AM, MH, or MM went to LE and told the truth, does that make either of the two less guilty?! Nope. So that part of cross feels like a total waste of court time IMO.

Personally, I think the discussion gets side-tracked when it focuses too much on judging the actions of the associates as bad or good. They're not being called as witnesses to be judged morally, they're being called because they can provide 'facts' that supports the prosecution case. For example, MM is providing 'facts' about what she observed and heard, and therefore the jury has more information that confirms that MS was involved in planning to steal the truck, talked about a gun, etc, none of which proves his guilt but helps to build up the case since it's consistent and confirms other testimony.

The defense wants to discredit those 'facts', which they are trying to do by creating a lot of smoke and confusion around whether she's reliable and has enough personal integrity to be believed. Whether or not she was abused isn't really relevant, IMO, to whether or not she correctly overheard the plans to the steal the truck, for example.

Just because the defense paints her as unreliable, doesn't mean the jury or anyone else has to believe it.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I am fortunate not to have personally been the victim of abuse/violence, just had a couple of garden-variety crappy boyfriends when I was about the age MM is now.

However, the part where MS wanted to turn her out as a stripper was just a little too specific, and rang 100% true. One of those little puzzle-pieces that enables you to see the big picture.

 

[mozzagirl]

I know there are victim services workers that work with the Bosma family in court but are there workers available to the witnesses if they need one? All I think is having your life, mostly all the bad, mistakes and embarrassment brought up in court, especially with media coverage, can't be easy. I just wonder if there are specialized workers to help people navigate through these kinds of situations.

 

[LF4e]

I know there are victim services workers that work with the Bosma family in court but are there workers available to the witnesses if they need one? All I think is having your life, mostly all the bad, mistakes and embarrassment brought up in court, especially with media coverage, can't be easy. I just wonder if there are specialized workers to help people navigate through these kinds of situations.

I believe someone from the Victim Witness Assistance Program would be available to support a witness if required.

 

[Inspector_North]

And that was what I was saying. She was called names in front of people, not hit in front of other people. Normally an abuser won't physically hit their partner in front others but they will degrade them with words in front of anyone!

Serious questions.

Is it also normal for someone abused like that to tell AM, DM and MS that stealing a truck was a stupid idea?
And also claimed to tell MS several times that selling the gun was a stupid idea?

Or text texts her abuser with the following tone?

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 3m3 minutes ago
"Liz is getting pick up at 9," Meneses writes. "Coming from where" "Holy S through (sic) you die or something. I was going f'ing crazy!"

I am not trying to be insensitive and I apologize if my requesting proof of abuse was way out of line. Have no experience in this area, and I heard from one poster that just asking to relive it was considered re victimizing.

Just very confused about her actions and claimed intent of actions.

MOO

 

[Georgeo]

Exactly. Their conversations are out in the open. On the 5th she is with Smich ,Millard and AM and they are having a discussion about this mission. Do you honestly believe none of them actually asked how they were going to steal the truck whilst on a test drive? And are we honestly to believe that the only thing MM heard was that they were going to steal a truck? How many missions had Smich been on before? Did she ever beg him not to go? Why?

. Good point! Why was this theft different?

 

[ThelmaLouise]

Serious questions.

Is it also normal for someone abused like that to tell AM, DM and MS that stealing a truck was a stupid idea?
And also claimed to tell MS several times that selling the gun was a stupid idea?

Or text texts her abuser with the following tone?

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 3m3 minutes ago
"Liz is getting pick up at 9," Meneses writes. "Coming from where" "Holy S through (sic) you die or something. I was going f'ing crazy!"

I am not trying to be insensitive and I apologize if my requesting proof of abuse was way out of line. Have no experience in this area, and I heard from one poster that just asking to relive it was considered re victimizing.

Just very confused about her actions and claimed intent of actions.

MOO

Yes. It is normal.

Some 'abuse' happens anytime the abuser feels like abusing.
Some abuse happens when 'the little woman' steps out of line. Treated like a child or a dog, who needs a reprimand.
MANY abuse situations happen as power-leverage and control during arguments and fights.
And what I see regularly, is crafty abusers, who are very good at twisting words and situations to make the victim feel like they brought it on themselves. They tear away at their self-esteem, until the person doubts every thought they have.



Much like Stockholm Syndrome,.... Many victims starts to see 'why' the abuser is the way they are, and try to fix them, or decide to forgive the abuse repeatedly. They sadly think they can give them the love they need. Or love them enough, that the abuse stops.

 

[Georgeo]

Yes and I believe that they are all being tried in the court of public opinion. How they all conducted themselves and withheld information from LE will be associated with them forever. Most said they did not read papers or watch the news with regards to TB's disappearance. What they may not know is that there are people who read papers and have followed this case and will remember them. I have a friend who lives close to MHs place of employment. She has told his boss that neither she or her family or neighbors will visit the bar/restaurant while he works there.

good idea! These young liars will find that this will haunt them for a very long time. Karma is a ***** sometimes.