Bosma Murder Trial 05.16.16 - Day 49

[ArianeEmory]

Palisadesk, briefly, I meant this:

http://phys.org/news/2010-05-women-efficiently-men.html

The idea that women navigate by landmark and men navigate by visualizing more of a mental "map". It usually gets tied back to hunter-gatherer stuff.

What you mention is definitely interesting, though. I'll check it out.

 

[dar107]

I think that both DM and MS are guilty of first degree murder, but it's not all black and white decision making for many of us here. Of course we all feel great sadness for the injustice inflicted upon TB no matter what. Still, while we all share that same sadness for what happened to TB and his family, it is a very hard thing to convict either accused of his murder if there are questions about who is responsible. Those who express their uncertainty about either accused (though it's now mostly about MS) and consider how psychology may explain why he has a poor memory for instance, are simply trying to assess testimony and evidence as they need to and not trying to excuse a murderer if they aren't convinced he is a murderer. It comes down to credibility of MS's testimony. Some believe he is telling the truth and others disagree. Some are unsure but we're all wanting to come to an honest decision in our own way and in our own time. We're not on the jury, but just as human beings I think discussions like we have here weigh heavily on us all and it's highly unlikely that we'll all see things the same way. If you're right and people are being played by MS no amount of criticism will help them to see it otherwise, IMO. Sometimes criticism can have the opposite effect. All FWIW.

All MOO.

Great and well said post!

 

[Jug Up]

I think that both DM and MS are guilty of first degree murder, but it's not all black and white decision making for many of us here. Of course we all feel great sadness for the injustice inflicted upon TB no matter what. Still, while we all share that same sadness for what happened to TB and his family, it is a very hard thing to convict either accused of his murder if there are questions about who is responsible. Those who express their uncertainty about either accused (though it's now mostly about MS) and consider how psychology may explain why he has a poor memory for instance, are simply trying to assess testimony and evidence as they need to and not trying to excuse a murderer if they aren't convinced he is a murderer. It comes down to credibility of MS's testimony. Some believe he is telling the truth and others disagree. Some are unsure but we're all wanting to come to an honest decision in our own way and in our own time. We're not on the jury, but just as human beings I think discussions like we have here weigh heavily on us all and it's highly unlikely that we'll all see things the same way. If you're right and people are being played by MS no amount of criticism will help them to see it otherwise, IMO. Sometimes criticism can have the opposite effect. All FWIW.

All MOO.

And that is understandable and respected. As they say, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't have much of a filter. That doesn't make me right, nor does it make you wrong. I am just rather animated at times.

My opinion is not quite as grey. It is pretty black and white. You know that analytical soft spot that some seem to have for d-bags and social outcasts who murder for kicks and try to play the "woe is me" card? I don't have that.

I am a daddy with two little girls, growing up about ten minutes from where the Bosma house is. Maybe I am taking this too personal, maybe it hits a little too close to home. So be it. All I know is that a little girl has to grow up without her daddy, and will have to be subjected to media scrutiny of some sorts for nothing more than being the daughter of an innocent murder victim.

It doesn't matter if he is telling the truth or not on whether he buried the gun. We are way past that point now. They are both guilty as can be, and now one of them is just trying to save his own *advertiser censored*. There is no reason to be overly analytical. The facts are the facts, and Smich has admitted Tim Bosma lost his life because he had a nice truck, and he, at the very least, tried to cover that up.

I can't sugar coat it. Smich and Millard are both guilty who should rot in hell for the rest of their lives. No amount of "poor me" testimony from this piece of garbage changes that.

MOO

 

[ArianeEmory]

I understand the desire to view things in black and white. It makes it all a hell of a lot easier.

 

[Sillybilly]

This thread is dedicated to the Bosma murder trial. Please don't derail it with posts about other cases, whether current or historical.

Also, posts that refer to other Websleuth members in a snide or derogatory fashion are removed, along with responses to the offending post. Post respectfully and responsibly. That's how it works around here if members wish to avoid interruption of their posting privileges.

 

[Jen Darme]

dot dot dot? you mean ellipses?

In texting, the ellipses used in this context (from the timeline) are called dot dot dot:

May 9 - 11:29 pm - Noudga phone pings in Kleinburg. Makes several attempts to reach Hagerman.

May 10 - 1:39 am - Hagerman texts Millard (on Noudga's phone): "really? Kk...can you tell me what these toys are so I can prepare myself?"
May 10 - 1:55 am - Millard (on Noudga's phone) texts Hagerman: "a toolbox."
May 10 - 1:57 am - Hagerman texts Millard (on Noudga's phone): "haha full of guns?"
May 10 - 2:11 am - Millard (on Noudga's phone) texts Hagerman: "..."

May 10 - 4:10 am - Millard (on Noudga's phone) texts Hagerman: "2."
May 10 - 4:12 am - Millard meets Hagerman in driveway of Hagerman's parents' home, provides a toolbox with small padlock on it.

Urban Dictionary

The next entry in the timeline strongly indicates giving the toolbox to MH was preplanned by DM and MS:

May 10 - 4:46 am - Millard messages Smich: "Retooled for stormy weather, all clear, getting some sleep now, 7 am accounting meeting."

 

[brightii]

In texting, the ellipses used in this context (from the timeline) are called dot dot dot:

May 9 - 11:29 pm - Noudga phone pings in Kleinburg. Makes several attempts to reach Hagerman.

May 10 - 1:39 am - Hagerman texts Millard (on Noudga's phone): "really? Kk...can you tell me what these toys are so I can prepare myself?"
May 10 - 1:55 am - Millard (on Noudga's phone) texts Hagerman: "a toolbox."
May 10 - 1:57 am - Hagerman texts Millard (on Noudga's phone): "haha full of guns?"
May 10 - 2:11 am - Millard (on Noudga's phone) texts Hagerman: "..."

May 10 - 4:10 am - Millard (on Noudga's phone) texts Hagerman: "2."
May 10 - 4:12 am - Millard meets Hagerman in driveway of Hagerman's parents' home, provides a toolbox with small padlock on it.

Urban Dictionary

The next entry in the timeline strongly indicates giving the toolbox to MH was preplanned by DM and MS:

May 10 - 4:46 am - Millard messages Smich: "Retooled for stormy weather, all clear, getting some sleep now, 7 am accounting meeting."

The way you put this together is brilliant, Jen Darme! Thank you so much! I never thought of the word retooled to have such significance, but your post gives me great clarity especially since it was sent by DM to MS in this time frame on the Friday morning day of DM's arrest. Now I understand why MS knew about a toolbox and now I wonder, did he know what was inside of it or did DM set him up with a gun or 2 guns? I tend to think DM was reassuring MS that the toolbox with both their guns was in a safe place. Now what changed and why did AM decide to bring the toolbox to MS? MH testified that AM told him it is what DM would want, but maybe it was MS who convinced AM that it's what DM would want because he didn't trust the possession of the toolbox with gun(s) inside to remain with anyone else so he wanted control of it?

All MOO.

 

[hopingforjustice]

I just don't understand this idea that if an accused takes the stand they must be telling the truth and their "speaking out" will somehow help the victims. It strikes me as incredibly naive. The world is full of liars and con artists, many of whom are quite successful.

With all due respect, I was responding to someone's IMO post. With a plausible argument. I never said that "speaking out" will help the victims, I was arguing that their presentation of that same could have easily been done by DM much earlier as he was the first arrested.

 

[ArianeEmory]

The way you put this together is brilliant, Jen Darme! Thank you so much! I never thought of the word retooled to have such significance, but your post gives me great clarity especially since it was sent by DM to MS in this time frame on the Friday morning day of DM's arrest. Now I understand why MS knew about a toolbox and now I wonder, did he know what was inside of it or did DM set him up with a gun or 2 guns? I tend to think DM was reassuring MS that the toolbox with both their guns was in a safe place. Now what changed ad why did AM decide to bring the toolbox to MS? MH testified that AM told him it is what DM would want, but maybe it was MS who convinced AM that it's what DM would want because he didn't trust the possession of the toolbox with gun(s) inside to remain with anyone else so he wanted control of it?

All MOO.

Few devil's advocacy points:

There's a multi-hour gap before DM responds with "2". (But yes I am on record as not believing in the two-gun theory.)

Retooled: As someone who notices these things, DM makes weird word choices, partially out of an inflated sense of his own vocabulary (IMO). (The irony here is that I'm sure people think the same thing about me, at least in RL. I like big words.)

But I think stuff like "hegemony" and "mission digestion" and "retooled" are just DM being weird and not quite knowing what some of the words he uses actually mean.

 

[canadiangirl]

Few devil's advocacy points:

There's a multi-hour gap before DM responds with "2". (But yes I am on record as not believing in the two-gun theory.)

Retooled: As someone who notices these things, DM makes weird word choices, partially out of an inflated sense of his own vocabulary (IMO). (The irony here is that I'm sure people think the same thing about me, at least in RL. I like big words.)

But I think stuff like "hegemony" and "mission digestion" and "retooled" are just DM being weird and not quite knowing what some of the words he uses actually mean.

We've all seen his amazing way with words through his father's obituary.

 

[ArianeEmory]

To say nothing of the prison letters.

 

[brightii]

Few devil's advocacy points:

There's a multi-hour gap before DM responds with "2". (But yes I am on record as not believing in the two-gun theory.)

Retooled: As someone who notices these things, DM makes weird word choices, partially out of an inflated sense of his own vocabulary (IMO). (The irony here is that I'm sure people think the same thing about me, at least in RL. I like big words.)

But I think stuff like "hegemony" and "mission digestion" and "retooled" are just DM being weird and not quite knowing what some of the words he uses actually mean.

I hear you, but the timing of that message being 4:46 am was just a half an hour after DM arrived at MH's driveway to pass off that toolbox. IMO it does have significance. Retooled is a pretty commonly used word - no? I just think it was DM's way of saying the toolbox with the gun(s) was taken care of and it wasn't an issue for MS to worry about. That's my story and I'm sticking to it ... for now. I reserve the right to change my opinion in future. Lol

All MOO.

 

[JuneBug67]

I'd like someone to ask MS what is the orange guy and why he asked DM to bring it? I've never thought it meant drugs because I'd think if it was he'd have asked for more than one.

All MOO.

I think it's reasonable to guess that it was OxyContin, and that he asked for one because it really was for pain and not for abuse.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I hear you, but the timing of that message being 4:46 am was just a half an hour after DM arrived at MH's driveway to pass off that toolbox. IMO it does have significance. Retooled is a pretty commonly used word - no? I just think it was DM's way of saying the toolbox with the gun(s) was taken care of and it wasn't an issue for MS to worry about. That's my story and I'm sticking to it ... for now. I reserve the right to change my opinion in future. Lol

All MOO.

Well, he does also like dumb puns. (Note, I'm only insulting puns, not anything else.)

 

[brightii]

Off to sleep now but, before I sign off the site, I want to say thanks for the many good discussions and kind comments here tonight everyone! Sometimes I allow my sensitive nature to get the better of me and I end the day in tears. I always sleep better after being welcomed to spend time among my virtual friends who all care deeply, as I do, about justice. Thank you and goodnight.

 

[torontoguy31]

where is the evidence to back any of this up though?

-a second gun was buried
-someone else buried the gun

 

[Ontario Mom]

I think it's reasonable to guess that it was OxyContin, and that he asked for one because it really was for pain and not for abuse.

I suspected it was oxy from the beginning (from the first time I heard about drugs other than weed). Just one more hook DM had in those who knew him. I think he likely really enjoyed being that position. The creep.

 

[Jen Darme]

The way you put this together is brilliant, Jen Darme! Thank you so much! I never thought of the word retooled to have such significance, but your post gives me great clarity especially since it was sent by DM to MS in this time frame on the Friday morning day of DM's arrest. Now I understand why MS knew about a toolbox and now I wonder, did he know what was inside of it or did DM set him up with a gun or 2 guns? I tend to think DM was reassuring MS that the toolbox with both their guns was in a safe place. Now what changed and why did AM decide to bring the toolbox to MS? MH testified that AM told him it is what DM would want, but maybe it was MS who convinced AM that it's what DM would want because he didn't trust the possession of the toolbox with gun(s) inside to remain with anyone else so he wanted control of it?

All MOO.

It certainly sounds like he was reassuring him about the location of the gun(s).

That text msg occurred during the predawn hours of May 10. The afternoon of May 10, the police spent an hour at the hangar and DM fired AJ soon after they left and later sent a text to LW, "looks bad, I think someone I work with has set me up. I'm not sure why." That evening DM was arrested, about 15 minutes after he'd spent 50 minutes with MS. If there was any doubt about the meaning of the retooled text message, odds are it was addressed then.

I think MH wouldn't need more than the assumption that the toolbox contained harder drugs, as it normally did, to want to get rid of it, especially as DM had been arrested and they could easily all be connected as friends, if not thieves at that point. MH had known DM all his life, so if there was any nudging needed to get MH to pass the toolbox on, DM would know how to do it and could've told MS that afternoon, and then MS could've passed it on to AM during one of the phone calls between them. I do think not having (assumed) drugs in his possession was enough for MH though.

 

[ArianeEmory]

where is the evidence to back any of this up though?

-a second gun was buried
-someone else buried the gun

Not sure what you mean, but all we have about the gun stuff is speculation, and fairly sketchy witness testimony. All we really know for sure is that a Walther existed (photos), and that a casing that could have come from it was found in Tim's truck.

In short, there's no evidence to back any of it up, we're all just spitballing after MS's amnesia testimony.

 

[NashBridges2]

The best part about these witnesses, is that the jury will be told that they can accept none, some, or all of the testimony as true.

I don't know what to believe about what he's saying about his memory and the gun. But at this point, I'm not sure it matters much. I don't think he was in the vehicle when TB was shot. But I do believe he knew the plan. So, I think he will still be convicted.