Bosma Murder Trial 05.18.16 - Day 51

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the gun that MS did not know about? it's his testimony. Let him tell the court that he didn't care about how TB felt then!? ... more thoughts?

Perhaps he felt getting close and blasting the high beams was the best way to obscure TBs view.
 
I drove past the Bosma home and past Timmy's tonight on my way home from dog training. I certainly would not say it is "right around the corner". I can't imagine anyone in the Trinity Road area walking to it, however it is easily and quickly found if you stay on the main roads and are driving. It's a no brainer really. It's a very lame excuse to say that "the friend" couldn't find Tim Horton's. That would be a huge red flag for me. I'm sure it was for Tim as well.

This is what I mean about "around the corner." Well said.

I grew up on Hamilton Mountain as well. For those not familiar with Hamilton, it was where the first TH was put for the steelworkers. It is pretty hard to drive a few minutes in any direction without finding one, really. That includes the burbs like Ancaster, Dundas and Stoney Creek as well.

That said, someone not familiar with Ancaster might not find i
A TH right away but if I am a betting man, this threw up a red flag for TB right away.
 
the gun that MS did not know about? it's his testimony. Let him tell the court that he didn't care about how TB felt then!? ... more thoughts?

I remember watching some documentary on TV and criminologists were saying that a victim should be aware that if abductor indicates to the victim that they are taking them from point A to point B then any victim should interpret this as a high risk that they need to fight for their life while they can. I think that TB would have been on alert just because they came late, it was getting dark, there was two of them, one was in a hoody and seated behind him in the vehicle. It would not have taken much to put him into fight or flight. I think DM would have been very aware of this and would not have done anything to trigger TB.(Like coming up with lame plans about their friend at tim hortons being lost). TB looked fit to me and his responses would have been a lot more faster moving than two dopers like DM and MS. I do not think TB seen it coming at all. God bless TB and his family and may they get the truth and some closure around the events that led to the terrible loss they have to live with for the rest of their lives.
 
The problem with this argument is that by that point Smich might not care that TB was beginning to suspect what was going on. What was TB going to do? At that point he was essentially a hostage and any resistance would have been met with Millards gun. But I agree with you in that I think the gun was pulled early and Smich was aware of it. I feel TB may have lunged for the gun at some point fearing that these guys were going to kill him anyway. I believe Smich followed closely to cover TBs plate from view. The stop at Bobcat was as Smich says, to change plates.

No , because we are thinking from MS point of view ... not what DM or TB were thinking at that moment (the stop at Bobcat)

MS (in the presence of TB) was instructed to follow the truck with the Yukon (also carrying the Coffee shop friends) .... and at the end of the test drive (down the road somewhere) DM would hop in the Yukon and TB would drive himself home

If MS is telling the truth and he was only expecting to pick up DM at Bobcat he should have parked or lurked away from TB and his truck so TB could not see only MS was in Yukon .

Summary
--- If MS knew TB was a goner he would have no hesitation pulling right up to TBs truck
--- If MS thought TB was going to get out of his truck , walk around to the drivers door , and drive it back home .... MS would not have pulled up so close.

Another clue just came to mind .... BOTH vehicles shut their headlights off right away .... a normal change of drivers on a dark road nobody would have turned the lights off

More and more I am thinking MS knew what to expect when they stopped at Bobcat. 5 hours ago I was not quite so sure if he did.
 
I strongly believe DM and MS both knew about the gun that night. Who was carrying it is another matter altogether.

But I can't get past one simple question that seems to be the crux of this entire case.

Why was there a need for the gun at all?

If the plan was to "scope" out a truck to steal, why bring a gun, and a loaded one at that?

They had the Yukon around the corner. Why not just leave the gun in there, if they always carried?

To me, that is premeditation, no questions asked.

When it was realized TB wasn't going to be able to overpower them, it was decided he was going to be killed. MOO
 
Isn't it just a small section of carpet removed from behind the passenger seat of the Yukon? The jeeps were race vehicles so removing the carpet makes sense, but I'll bet the carpet was still in the Caddy and every other street vehicle Millard owned.

Carpet in the Caddy was brand new .... carpets in front seats of Yukon were removed a long time ago by the looks of it .... maybe DM does have an allergy to them.
 
Perhaps he felt getting close and blasting the high beams was the best way to obscure TBs view.

Then MS would have seen DM shoot TB. As I recall, driving with someone since I don't drive myself, if you're close enough to the car ahead and you put your high beams on you can see into the car and see the occupants.
 
I remember watching some documentary on TV and criminologists were saying that a victim should be aware that if abductor indicates to the victim that they are taking them from point A to point B then any victim should interpret this as a high risk that they need to fight for their life while they can. I think that TB would have been on alert just because they came late, it was getting dark, there was two of them, one was in a hoody and seated behind him in the vehicle. It would not have taken much to put him into fight or flight. I think DM would have been very aware of this and would not have done anything to trigger TB.(Like coming up with lame plans about their friend at tim hortons being lost). TB looked fit to me and his responses would have been a lot more faster moving than two dopers like DM and MS. I do not think TB seen it coming at all. God bless TB and his family and may they get the truth and some closure around the events that led to the terrible loss they have to live with for the rest of their lives.

these 2 have absolutely no conscious, perhaps more of them too, and it just makes me sick that MS is up there "doing the right thing" when in my bones i know he is lying about his involvement in this.
 
It is pretty hard to drive a few minutes in any direction without finding one, really.

I used to joke with my kids that we would wake up one morning and find a Timmies store had popped up in our driveway overnight.
 
Then MS would have seen DM shoot TB. As I recall, driving with someone since I don't drive myself, if you're close enough to the car ahead and you put your high beams on you can see into the car and see the occupants.

We have know idea when TB was shot and no idea where the Yukon was in relation to the RAM at that moment. Smich testified that Millard suddenly pulled in to the Bobcat dealership, so it is possible he was farther back but got caught out by the sudden breaking.
 
Perhaps he felt getting close and blasting the high beams was the best way to obscure TBs view.

when you're that close it would only reflect more light to the front window, no?

but i checked and the headlight beams were not on i don't believe.
 
Good point ... that alone should be convincing evidence DM was planning to steal it that night ..... the question is did Mark know the plates were there ahead of time .... in court he made it sound like DM first told him the plates were in the back of the Yukon when they got to Bobcat.

If I was on the jury I could possibly buy the scope-now ~ steal-later plan .... but never would believe the ~ scope-at-9:30 and steal-at-2:00 AM ~ plan they are presenting in court.

As dumb or as smart as they pretend to be , they would know the test drive a couple hours earlier would be linked to them. To winch it into a trailer next week would be plausible .... but like you say , they would not need the plates that night.

Not to mention DM had purposely got Mr Vilada to bring him the Red Ram some days earlier so he would have the plates and the VIN number..

This is what i always thought. Returning the same night in a change of clothes seemed like a very weak attempt at hiding the fact you were the two men on the test drive. I did not believe that was the reason for the change of clothes.
 
when you're that close it would only reflect more light to the front window, no?

but i checked and the headlight beams were not on i don't believe.

Doesn't matter if high beams or not. It is impossible to see into a truck behind you at night because of the lights.
 
I strongly believe DM and MS both knew about the gun that night. Who was carrying it is another matter altogether.

But I can't get past one simple question that seems to be the crux of this entire case.

Why was there a need for the gun at all?

If the plan was to "scope" out a truck to steal, why bring a gun, and a loaded one at that?

They had the Yukon around the corner. Why not just leave the gun in there, if they always carried?

To me, that is premeditation, no questions asked.

When it was realized TB wasn't going to be able to overpower them, it was decided he was going to be killed. MOO

i agree, that word "scope" is used a lot and I'm betting that if MS was instructed not use the words scope, scoped, scoping etc, he would be totally screwed up, because its his inventive lie more or less.
 
ok. I think I'm following.....so you're saying that because it should only have taken 9 minutes to get to the Bosma's from the Yukon passing Supersucker and it actually took 19 minutes that you believe the video timestamp is off? And because the time stamp is off then the other Black Dodge Ram sightings (that were consistent with TB's truck, but couldn't conclusively be identified as TB's) are likely TB's truck and therefore MS was in the vehicle when TB was shot? I need to see the Bill Andrew's timeline again.....did any texts/calls come in during that time? I thought they were pinging in Ancaster earlier than 8:56pm.....MOO

ETA - Smich phones pings in Ancaster at 8:44pm. So during Plaxton's testimony how was the time stamp verified? So long ago, but I recall he said he checked it to his cellphone? So logically, we either have Plaxton incorrect about the time stamp at the SuperSucker (which does seem to line up with cell pings) OR we have other Black Dodge Ram's travelling that road? I'm not sure that there are necessarily 10 missing minutes...I see why you're saying that, but to me a lot of variables aren't being accounted for....they may have driven around to find an appropriate spot to leave the Yukon, had a cigarette, chatted about plan, lots of ways to eat up 10 minutes IMO

Both the police officer and Super Sucker management claim they checked the video time stamp against their iPhone and watch respectively, but the officer had no notes to that effect and acknowledged that under cross. Like you, I've said that there are tons of credible ways to eat up 10 minutes, but through the tweets MS hasn't seemed to testify to any of them. All he has said is that Dell looked for a place to park, and then they got out and started to walk, with Dell on the phone. Finally, none of the truck sightings on the video could be verified in the same way as the Yukon was because the truck wasn't drivable when it was recovered, so Plaxton seemed to testify on cross that each truck sighting was indeed consistent with Tim's truck.

I just wish MS had clearly testified to a delay of some kind. There are reasons to find both scenarios credible, and I expect Sachak will devote some real time to this. I had forgotten about the consistent Ancaster pings. That does help, though I guess Sachak could argue they stopped somewhere before the Super Sucker.
 
BINGO !! .... I love it when people like you notice the not-so-obvious and point it out. Thank you.

I must confess you are right .... MS would want to lurk a little ways from TB and his truck ..... especially considering all the efforts of hiding the Yukon from TB when they arrived at his home .

.
edit to add .... Massasauga Rattler proposed this here earlier http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Trial-05-16-16-Day-49&p=12563753#post12563753
I'm not sure I agree. The Yukon had tinted windows IIRC and it is quite dark in the video. Doubt anyone else could be seen easily if there was someone so how close the Yukon is doesn't matter IMO
 
Doesn't matter if high beams or not. It is impossible to see into a truck behind you at night because of the lights.

maybe there was a hand signal/thumbs up/arm out the window or such by DM telling MS time to stop everything good, thereby giving MS the confidence to roll up bumper to bumper like that?
 
So seatbelt was
Obviously off at this point! Indicating perhaps TB knew something wasn't right and at this point perhaps A struggle or argument began?

Not really. The first time I did this experiment and posted my results (no pic) I did it with and without my seatbelt on. The results were the same, so I didn't feel need to post up two pictures.
 
Good point ... that alone should be convincing evidence DM was planning to steal it that night ..... the question is did Mark know the plates were there ahead of time .... in court he made it sound like DM first told him the plates were in the back of the Yukon when they got to Bobcat.

If I was on the jury I could possibly buy the scope-now ~ steal-later plan .... but never would believe the ~ scope-at-9:30 and steal-at-2:00 AM ~ plan they are presenting in court.

As dumb or as smart as they pretend to be , they would know the test drive a couple hours earlier would be linked to them. To winch it into a trailer next week would be plausible .... but like you say , they would not need the plates that night.

Not to mention DM had purposely got Mr Vilada to bring him the Red Ram some days earlier so he would have the plates and the VIN number..

What would they have been thinking?
how would they even accomplish a theft with the trailer? They'd have to hope TM did not sell in the mean-time (if they were to steal it some days later to avoid coincidental timing with their test drive). Then they'd need to pull the trailer into TB's driveway. How can they winch it if it was in park? Or would they break a window and shift it into neutral? They'd have to hope nobody woke up and looked out the window to see a huge trailer outside in the driveway. At least in the hot-wiring scenario they could have potentially run back to an escape vehicle (with ghost plates) and made a getaway if they were interrupted mid-theft.
 
Hang on .... I have some more cudos for you .... I had a faint recollection that back in May 2013 someone speculated they stopped where TB's phone was found to change plates on the stolen vehicle .... I had been trying to dig it up and turns out it was you .... another BINGO ... and I reproduce your post below ... you nailed it except the phone was tossed and not fallen out.

Amazing ... I dont believe in ESP but I Do Believe you have it .... haaaa.


May 19 2013 slowsluethy posted ....
my opinion/theory about the phone is this:
one person, either DM or suspect 2, had both phones (batteries pulled) on them, where TB's phone was found is where i believe they stopped the vehicle and got out to do a plate change on TB's truck, DM's plate from his red pickup would have worked perfect, however... during the plate change, they dropped TB's phone by accident, it just fell out their pocket, then they headed to the farm... just a theory i had in my head.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...6-May-2013-7-**ARREST**&p=9458097#post9458097

Maybe that is the MS F'up.....he dropped the phone??? Or DM cleaned it and put it say on the hood of the Yukon saying, take that with you and he forgot....and drove away. DM asked for the phone later and they couldn't find it??
 
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