Bosma Murder Trial 05.19.16 - Day 52

[canadiangirl]

I asked this question a few threads back and I can't find the answer from the cell phone expert testimony.
I thought you only needed the physical phone for information and not the Sim? LE had MS phones so why no info?

All comments are JMO unless stated otherwise

 

[leafs_fan93]

They don't have to come to an agreement of exactly what happned. To know that they'd have to be there. They only have to add up all the evidence and ask themselves if it points to the idea both DM and MS were involved in murdering TB. IMO

Question for the legal minds - not sure if it's been asked further down but I'm only 20% of the way through the thread and don't want to forget to ask haha, but what happens if they can come to an agreement on one of the two accused but not the other?

 

[Prairie_dawg]

Can someone help me understand this?
Why did they they go towards the Bobcat dealership?
Is that in the direction of DM's farm?
20 miles and then change plates.
They approached from the north and then made a U-turn.
I don't understand.

The deviation from Paris road south to Bobcat led me to believe the shooting occurred just BEFORE turning south or immediately afterwards. The only other explanation could be they had not encountered much traffic and something/someone may have spooked DM on Paris Rd into wanting to get the plates changed ASAP, IMO. It seems plausible the search for the phone occurred here to make sure they could not be tracked back to the farm. Had they not tossed the phone across the street from Bobcat we would likely never have had the video footage that we got to see at Bobcat. (another of the truly massive screw ups - besides the whole crime) MOO

The Farm is further north which is why they did a U-turn after sorting out the phone and plates. Perhaps DM wanted 'some' light to change the plates and saw no traffic near Bobcat.

 

[Sphinx]

Can someone help me understand this?
Why did they they go towards the Bobcat dealership?
Is that in the direction of DM's farm?
20 miles and then change plates.
They approached from the north and then made a U-turn.
I don't understand.

I suspect that part of the plan, known by both DM and MS, was to shoot TB as DM slowly drove over the train tracks. As I stated in a previous post, that allowed him to really slow down, and keep control of the truck while he got his gun out, and then shot poor TB before he could react. I hope he never knew what happened, and did not suffer. DM may have also distracted him by asking him to look to the right, when he shot him --- what is that over there ? They knew they would have a quiet area where they could pull in, but neglected to consider the video surveillance near the Bobcat dealership. LE may actually have video showing the actual shooting, and the sounds of two gunshots, although it is very poor quality. IMO

 

[ABro]

Thank you for this. I'm starting to feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone on here.

It is the Twilight Zone here.

 

[Alethea Dice]

There are at least a couple of issues with that. One is the timing, which was said to have been confirmed at the time, even though not in the officer's notes. The time also matches up with cellphone pings in Ancaster. The second is that for whatever reason, these views of other vehicles driving past Supersucker were disregarded by the expert. If DM's defence found this to be such an important point in his defence, they were certainly welcome to bring in their own expert witness to further examine these vehicles to see if they did indeed match TB's truck, but yet they did not. On top of DM not testifying in his own defence, they also chose to not call *any* defence whatsoever, choosing instead to count on 'reasonable doubt'. They seemed to be happy to leave that one alone until such time as MS chose to take the stand, when now they are making issue with it. I'm sure the point would have been made in closing arguments, but how much impact can it have if they didn't think it worthy to even have an expert second opinion take a look at these additional vehicles?

First of all, in regards to the timing, we aren't talking about a lot of minutes here. The original report from the first LE officer stated that the video was "approximately" 3 hours out and there was nothing in his notes about how he checked the timestamp.

The prep meeting was with Assistant Crown Tony Leitch. In the notes of that meeting, it says Stoltz said approximately three hours out, plus or minus one or two minutes.
by Adam Carter February 24 at 10:44 AM

"I'm suggesting to you sir, you don't know three years after the fact precisely what your cell phone said or what the video was." Pillay says. "I do know what it said," Stoltz responds.
by Adam Carter February 24 at 10:45 AM

Then the Director of Marketing and Communications at Super Sucker and he said he checked the time against his military watch, which happened to be out a minute that day.

"I know that it was quite close to three hours," Stieva says.
by Adam Carter February 24 at 11:00 AM


In a prep meeting on Monday, Stieva said the video was "about three hours out."
by Adam Carter February 24 at 11:00 AM

"I do not have a recollection to the exact minute," Stieva says.
by Adam Carter February 24 at 11:02 AM

"You're ballparking," Pillay says. "Correct," Stieva says.
by Adam Carter February 24 at 11:03 AM

Then we move on to Plaxton who simply went by what he was told because the time on the camera had already been updated by the time he saw it.

Pillay asking about the video taken from Super Sucker Ltd, where Plaxton was told about the time shift on the video. It had been fixed by the time he got to it.
by Adam Carter March 9 at 2:34 PM

Plaxton was going by a police officer's notes on the time differential on that video.
by Adam Carter March 9 at 2:37 PM

"Unfortunately, I was unable to do that, so I had to work with what I was given," Plaxton says, adding that he was confident because he had heard from two other sources that it was three hours off.
by Adam Carter March 8 at 12:43 PM

He checked the video against the time of sunset, which "further supported" that the video was "a number of hours slow."
by Adam Carter March 8 at 12:44 PM

Regarding your second issue, the Defense did not need to bring in their own expert witness to examine the vehicles on the video because Plaxton had already agreed that they were consistant with TB's truck.

A vehicle with the characteristics of the Bosma vehicle travels north at 9:05 p.m. (6:05 p.m. by the Supersucker timestamp) on Trinity Road, Plaxton says. Then a vehicle with similar characteristics goes by at 9:20 p.m. -- but that isn't in the report. "They may very well be" the same vehicle," Plaxton says. "You didn't include that in your report?" Pillay says. "No," Plaxton says.
by Adam Carter March 9 at 3:45 PM

Pillay showing a truck going south on Trinity Road at 9:15 p.m. with similar features to the Bosma truck.
by Adam Carter March 9 at 3:49 PM

"You can't say this is not the same vehicle returning? You can't say this is not the Bosma vehicle returning?" Plaxton responds he can't.
by Adam Carter March 9 at 3:51 PM

Pillay says the video is consistent with a vehicle consistent with Bosma's truck going north on Trinity Road at 9:05 p.m., then going south at 9:15 p.m. ten minutes later. "Yes it is," Plaxton says. Pillay then says it's consistent with Bosma vehicle travelling north again at 9:20 p.m., Plaxton agrees.
by Adam Carter March 9 at 3:57 PM

Pillay also says it's consistent with the Bosma vehicle going alone at 9:05 p.m. and 9:15 p.m. Plaxton agrees.
by Adam Carter March 9 at 3:57 PM

Why they were missed in the original report, whether subconsciously he was looking only for a vehicle that matched the estimated time it would take to drive from TB's house, we will never know. IMO, it was one of the few mistakes missed by the Crown that would have helped their case against MS.

JMO

 

[Typhoo1961]

If MS were the shooter and DM was upset as his lawyer suggests, wouldn't MS be worried when DM left him alone in the hangar? For all he knew DM could have been headed to the police. In fact, if what DM is suggesting is true, why didn't he?

Because then LE would have taken the RAM and DM wanted that RAM for himself.

 

[ABro]

First of all, in regards to the timing, we aren't talking about a lot of minutes here. The original report from the first LE officer stated that the video was "approximately" 3 hours out and there was nothing in his notes about how he checked the timestamp.



Then the Director of Marketing and Communications at Super Sucker and he said he checked the time against his military watch, which happened to be out a minute that day.



Then we move on to Plaxton who simply went by what he was told because the time on the camera had already been updated by the time he saw it.



Regarding your second issue, the Defense did not need to bring in their own expert witness to examine the vehicles on the video because Plaxton had already agreed that they were consistant with TB's truck.


Why they were missed in the original report, whether subconsciously he was looking only for a vehicle that matched the estimated time it would take to drive from TB's house, we will never know. IMO, it was one of the few mistakes missed by the Crown that would have helped their case against MS.

JMO

Plaxton did not miss the three truck trips. He and the crown were not surprised or thrown by the Pillay cross. They simply chose not to present that evidence as they choose not to present a lot of evidence.

I'll give you Plaxton's exact response later of what he said when Pillay suggested he'd never been directed to look at those tris. He said Pillay was mistaken.

ETA: here is the original exchange:

“That segment was not directed to you by anyone prior to today, the investigators didn't tell you about that segment,” Pillay suggests.

Plaxton contradicts him, answering, “Yes I would have seen that segment.”

“You didn't include it in your report. You missed that.”

 

[redheart]

Just caught up -- even that was exhausting.

For those who feel like they are in the Twilight Zone due to some of us wavering (or being uncertain) on MS--I can only speak for myself, but I don't want you to feel that way. I know I'm not being fully objective, which I keep saying. I am, however, sure the jury will do the right thing. They're there every day and they see and hear all the things the rest of us don't. And they see the Bosmas every day.

Any thoughts on why Sachak hasn't brought up the sausage texts? Or will that be the grand finale? He obviously doesn't mind implicating DM (as the receiver of the texts).

And finally, I have a short poll for you guys:

1. Did you call 911?

2. Why didn't you call 911?

I hope you don't think the Twilight Zone remark was directed at you. Your posts are always a pleasure to read, even if I don't agree with them (which doesn't happen often).

I completely understand people not being sold on thinking MS is 100% guilty of 1st degree.

On the other hand, I am completely baffled by people excusing things MS has done, glossing over his other murder charge (because - hey, DM has TWO!), and just generally stretching to make excuses for every piece of evidence against him.

 

[canadiangirl]

Still can't help but wonder about the lack of physical evidence on MS. That seems to be my sticking point.


All comments are JMO unless stated otherwise

 

[ArianeEmory]

I hope you don't think the Twilight Zone remark was directed at you. Your posts are always a pleasure to read, even if I don't agree with them (which doesn't happen often).

I completely understand people not being sold on thinking MS is 100% guilty of 1st degree.

On the other hand, I am completely baffled by people excusing things MS has done, glossing over his other murder charge (because - hey, DM has TWO!), and just generally stretching to make excuses for every piece of evidence against him.

Well, I can tell you for sure a lot of us (including me) are going to feel really dumb for even asking the questions if it turns out they have anything substantial on him for LB. Wish we knew more there. (Are things already underway for LB, under a publication ban? Are people even allowed to answer yes/no to that?)

 

[mimimic]

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 10m10 minutes ago
Smich says on drive home Millard was happy he got the truck. #Bosma

Alex Pierson ‏@AlexpiersonAMP 9m9 minutes ago
Driving to oakville smich says millard was happy he got the truck. They discussed what to do next. @AM900CHML

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 9m9 minutes ago
Sachak asks if Smich told Millard he put him in a horrible mess. Smich says the conversation revolved around what would take place next.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 9m9 minutes ago
Millard was happy with theft of the truck on the drive home, Smich says.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 10m10 minutes ago
"The conversation would have revolved around what would take place next," says Smich. "I can't remember the exact words."

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 10m10 minutes ago
"The conversation would have revolved around what is to take place next," Smich says. #TimBosma #Bosma

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 10m10 minutes ago
"I can't recall exact words," Smich says. #Bosma

Colin Butler ‏@ColinButlerCBC 10m10 minutes ago
Sachak asks why Smich didn't ask why did you put me in this mess. Smich says they talked about their next steps. #TimBosma

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 10m10 minutes ago
Smich contacted Marlena using Dell's iPhone. His was dead. Sachak asks what Dellen said. Smich doesn't think he said anything.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 10m10 minutes ago
Smich tried to reach Marlena with Millard's phone. "Were you not concerned this raving lunatic might snap at you?"

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 10m10 minutes ago
Sachak asks if he thought this "raving lunatic would snap on you for asking to borrow his property?"

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 10m10 minutes ago
Smich says no, Millard needed his help. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 10m10 minutes ago
Smich used Dell's iphone to try to contact Marlena. Couldn't reach her. Smich thinks he left her a message.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 10m10 minutes ago
"No sir, it looked like he needed my help," Smich says. He needed to get hold of Marlena.

Colin Butler ‏@ColinButlerCBC 10m10 minutes ago
"We're you concerned that this raving lunatic would snap on you if you borrowed his property?" Sachak asks about Smich using Millard's phone

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 10m10 minutes ago
Smich says he used Millard's phone in an attempt to get a hold of his girlfriend because his phone was dead. #TimBosma #Bosma

we must be on break twitter count stopped increasing....

Their next steps, in their plan, perhaps?

 

[JuneBug67]

I just realized that Sachak has taken 37 days (or something) on this cross exam because he has been desperately procrastinating having to say "Oh no! Call an ambulance!" out loud with a straight face. I have renewed respect for him. He didn't even call in a bomb threat or pull the fire alarm or anything!

 

[redheart]

Well, I can tell you for sure a lot of us (including me) are going to feel really dumb for even asking the questions if it turns out they have anything substantial on him for LB. Wish we knew more there. (Are things already underway for LB, under a publication ban? Are people even allowed to answer yes/no to that?)

Yes, I sure wish we knew more about the LB case. And WM's case. And what has gone on without the jury present in this case.

I don't think anybody should ever feel dumb for questioning the facts of any case! That's what a discussion board is for.

 

[redheart]

I just realized that Sachak has taken 37 days (or something) on this cross exam because he has been desperately procrastinating having to say "Oh no! Call an ambulance!" out loud with a straight face. I have renewed respect for him. He didn't even call in a bomb threat or pull the fire alarm or anything!

"Oh no! Call an ambulance!" has the playwright DM written all over it.

 

[canadiangirl]

"Oh no! Call an ambulance!" has the playwright DM written all over it.

My jaw hit the floor. I think that was the most unbelievable thing they said. And there was a lot lol

 

[JuneBug67]

Well, I can tell you for sure a lot of us (including me) are going to feel really dumb for even asking the questions if it turns out they have anything substantial on him for LB. Wish we knew more there. (Are things already underway for LB, under a publication ban? Are people even allowed to answer yes/no to that?)

The existence of publication bans are never secret. They must seem super weird to you but they are actually pretty ordinary and circumspect and not about secretiveness but about protecting individuals or the course of justice. Pre-trial motions, bail hearings, prelims etc. can be under a PB to protect the defendant's right to a fair trial, but because of the direct indictment in the LB case and the seriousness of the charges there are no bail hearings and there is no preliminary hearing. Pre-trial motions happening under a PB maybe? Don't know.

 

[Elisabeth]

Still can't help but wonder about the lack of physical evidence on MS. That seems to be my sticking point.


All comments are JMO unless stated otherwise

I consider the following to be evidence against MS:

1) text interchange between DM and MS as evidence:

The message back reads: "Headed to waterloo, figure out BBQ situation for this week." #TimBosma #Bosma Apr 14, 2016

tweet from Susan Clairmont

Wasn't this was right before DM sent messages to DD looking for the generator. And in my opinion you don't use the incinerator to burn paper and electronics. They burned the seats in the field right? you only use the incinerator for poor Tim Bosma.

2) asking for gloves and tape by MS
3) the direction to bring a change of clothes to be evidence. Because it is a lame way to hide you were the two guys on the test drive.
4) the sausages and fireside furniture
5) the celebratory mood the next day (MM has no reason to lie about that does she?)
6) MS only becoming different (fearful, paranoid) in mood later on that week once the cops were closing in (wasn't that the testimony of Daly who said he saw MS daily for two years.).
"It wasn't until after Dell got arrested I noticed a change" in Smich. Apr 05, 2016 Susan Clairmont tweet.
7) someone posted a text from MS to MM when he was picking her up the next morning. It is not in the Susan, Molly or Adam tweets as they summarized the messages together. However I believe (my opinion since i cannot find the source), that it was after MS had arrived and was waiting for MM to come downstairs. Did he then send a message: 'Hey I got my ride'.. as in he earned his caddy?

 

[canadiangirl]

I consider the following to be evidence against MS:

1) text interchange between DM and MS as evidence:

The message back reads: "Headed to waterloo, figure out BBQ situation for this week." #TimBosma #Bosma Apr 14, 2016

tweet from Susan Clairmont

Wasn't this was right before DM sent messages to DD looking for the generator. And in my opinion you don't use the incinerator to burn paper and electronics. They burned the seats in the field right? you only use the incinerator for poor Tim Bosma.

2) asking for gloves and tape by MS
3) the direction to bring a change of clothes to be evidence. Because it is a lame way to hide you were the two guys on the test drive.
4) the sausages and fireside furniture
5) the celebratory mood the next day (MM has no reason to lie about that does she?)
6) MS only becoming different (fearful, paranoid) in mood later on that week once the cops were closing in (wasn't that the testimony of Daly who said he saw MS daily for two years.).
"It wasn't until after Dell got arrested I noticed a change" in Smich. Apr 05, 2016 Susan Clairmont tweet.
7) someone posted a text from MS to MM when he was picking her up the next morning. It is not in the Susan, Molly or Adam tweets as they summarized the messages together. However I believe (my opinion since i cannot find the source), that it was after MS had arrived and was waiting for MM to come downstairs. Did he then send a message: 'Hey I got my ride'.. as in he earned his caddy?

Sorry I should have been clear. Lack of physical evidence for first degree. There is obvious evidence for another charge and he has admitted to helping and not going to police. I'm still on the fence and looking forward to the crown on Tuesday

 

[JuneBug67]

Yes, I sure wish we knew more about the LB case. And WM's case. And what has gone on without the jury present in this case.

I don't think anybody should ever feel dumb for questioning the facts of any case! That's what a discussion board is for.

Journalists can write about everything important we've missed in the legal arguments as soon as the jury is in deliberation. Kind of amazing that that will be soon.