Bosma Murder Trial 05.31.16 - Day 56 - Closing Arguments Begin

[deugirtni]

Only surprising thing was finally knowing that DM did have the satchel. Although that's not as much of as a surprise - just interesting that it was confirmed.

Can you enlighten me as to how it was confirmed today? I must have missed that part. TY

 

[CJPRINCESS]

This is impossible! How do you fit a L bottle on an American gun. Ha ha ha.

Or fit a 2L bottle into a satchel or a hoddie pocket?!

If a silencer was involved, I'm sure their good Ole buddy MWJ would have been a be to supply that.

 

[Claroon]

No Pilay is saying it was to scope only.

A colonoscopy is a type of scope too. It's stuck up a person's butt. Just saying. Not something to be done by non-professionals. :blushing:

 

[marycanuck]

I understand what Pillay is trying to do....cast doubt on Crown's witnesses and MS's story.......but at the end of the day, whether that is TB's truck in the first two passes of the SS video is irrelevant to DM's guilt. MOO

IMO - the only story this casts doubt on for me is MS NOT being in the truck when TB lost his life...
JMO

 

[hellkat2]

A colonoscopy is a type of scope too. It's stuck up a person's butt. Just saying. Not something to be done by non-professionals. :blushing:

Where are you going with this Claroon?

 

[palisadesk]

Yes, I believe that DM and MS are definitely comparable to Leopold and Loeb in many respects. It was a sort of game to them as well, believing they had superior intelligence and the capability to create the perfect murder.

A good vacation book to read is Meyer Levin's fictionalized book about that case, Compulsion. It's gripping, and pretty well sticks to the facts of the case -- written as a novel in order to avoid lawsuits IIRC (U.S. libel laws differ from Canadian ones in important ways, and the fact that the story you write is true is not a protection there).

But while Loeb and Leopold thought they were geniuses, they actually were in the near-genius range intellectually, while there's no evidence whatever that DM or MS are anything but average in the IQ department. Both indeed may have learning issues, and the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that DM exhibits signs of fetal alcohol damage (no worries, it does not exculpate a person from criminal responsibility -- it's not a mental illness). It could go together with psychopathy, if he is diagnosed with that, or could be separate. MB would know, of course, and an fMRI could probably show typical areas of damage. DM's verbal prowess, so vastly superior to his completely moronic grip on finances, is a classic sign, as is his compulsive sexual promiscuity, his inability to plan realistically, to take consequences into account, to follow through on things ("executive function" in the jargon of the field), to make and keep friends of his own age, and on and on.

MS does not strike me as either psychopathic or FAS, just a common criminal type. The fact that he had been in trouble with the law from early days, despite a fairly strong family (apparently) and did poorly in school, may indicate learning disabilities or behaviour disorders in his early years, hard to know. It's not unusual for kids with LD to run into trouble with the law as early as elementary school, due to poor impulse control, running with the wrong crowd, feeling like failures due to academic struggles, and so on. Not an excuse, but social problems are very common among youngsters with LD. Programs like those of the Integra Foundation can help prevent them escalating. I don't know if any of this applies to MS, but if some does, he has a better chance of rehabilitation over the long term. For FAS or psychopathy, the prospects of significant change is slim to none.

 

[XiolaBlueX]

Reposting

 

[XiolaBlueX]

This apparent contradiction bothered me, too, at first. But I am inclined to think that if anyone's testimony is discredited it is that of MS, not that of Bullman.

First and most obviously, if we posit that Bullman did in fact see both vehicles pull out of the field one after the other, turn left onto Book Rd, stop at the stop sign and then cross Trinity, continuing west on Book Road, that doesn't mean the same two vehicles could not have been subsequently caught on the SuperSucker video some minutes later. They could have first driven west on Book, whether for a few hundred metres or farther, stopped (it's pretty dark back there and there are some lonely patches of road) to do whatever -- roll the window down, throw a tarp over the body, assuming the shooting had already happened, or something else that can be done quickly, then turned around and come back, turning north on Trinity this time -- by which time Bullman would have been going back towards his house or continuing his walk with his dogs around his property, but would not have been watching them.

The second, but less likely IMO possibility, is that Bullman was watching the two vehicles stop at the stop sign, noticed they did not have their turn indicators flashing, and when they pulled out he did not see precisely whether they turned right or proceeded straight but inferred the latter from the lack of signals (this could have been an unconscious process). The area where he was walking is heavily treed and might have obscured his vision of the corner. The reason I think this is less likely (though possible) is that, unlike cases of inattentional blindness, he had noticed these vehicles and their behaviour as somewhat odd (while not suspicious particularly) and therefore he was paying more attention than he might have done if a single vehicle had done the same thing. We don't know exactly where he was standing, and AFAIK the question wasn't asked in precise terms, so what we know is that he thought the vehicles went straight west on Book. We don't know if he definitely saw them cross Trinity or whether perhaps he inferred that they did this. Of course, now that we know what scofflaws these two charmers were, it would come as no surprise that they didn't bother signaling their turns (if that was the case).

Going by the tweets of MS's testimony, I found his reported description of where they parked the Yukon to be questionable. It wasn't IMO on the side of the road, it would have been parked in the field proper, or at least in that wide entryway into the field, which I doubt they would have blocked lest someone on that property tried to come out that way. Surely they didn't want to call attention to themselves. I thought all along the likeliest thing would have been for them to drive the Yukon into the field and turn left by the haystacks where they could have been out of sight. Like the Crown I thought this could well have been the crime scene, too, but don't feel this is a critical point. The fact that no glass evidence was found there might be due to the fact that when police searched the field they were still looking for a missing person, and any small shards of glass that fell into the scattered hay on the ground might have been unnoticed if visible at all, and certainly wouldn't have been something the K-9 unit would have been looking for.

If it's MS' testimony vs Bullman's, I'm with the latter. Even if MS were telling the truth (and I think some of what he said would have been the truth - Dungey would not have put him on the stand to tell what he, TD, knew to be a pack of lies - but TD would not have been able to tell what specifics were true and what weren't), MS was definitely slanting his testimony to cast himself in the best possible light. It's not just criminals who do this, we all have a tendency to revise our recollections in our own favour, and it's also true that retelling a memory or memories over and over tends to obscure the original and gradually refine it into a partly fictitious narrative. It's how memory works, especially visually loaded memories. The verbal overlay changes the actual storage and retrieval of the original.

Of course in cases like this the accused has much to gain by misrepresenting things, as do some of the witnesses, and to try to separate wheat from chaff is a challenging task. I don't envy the jurors. I expect they will deliberate for several days at least even if all 12 are convinced of the guilt of the two accused. The complexity and amount of evidence presented, and seriousness of the charges, mean that the jurors have a duty to carefully weigh all the evidence amongst themselves, guided by the judge and the jury foreman, to ensure justice is served.

I'm looking forward to Justice Goodman's charge. I hope it will be published somewhere.

Thx for your thoughtful response. However, the reason it sounded strange is I specifically remember RB saying that he watched the vehicles continue west on book road toward Brantford for some time


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?300225-Bosma-Murder-Trial-02-08-16-Day-5/page7
molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 2m2 minutes ago
Both headed west on Book Rd, crossing Trinity Rd, toward Brantford. The 2 together seemed odd. He could see for less than a km. # Bosma
Mark Carcasole ‏@MarkCarcGlobal 31s32 seconds ago
Bullmann says he could see their tail lights for about 500 yds. Couldn't see who was in vehicles. #MillardSmic

 

[deugirtni]

Was anyone here at WS in court today? If so, is it difficult to get in, is it worth a try to attend?

Someone mentioned on their tweets this morning that the courtroom was less full than usual today.

 

[Claroon]

Pillay now talking about the demeanour of Millard and Smich at the Bosma home. Millard "instilled trust," he says. "He faced them, he was friendly."
by Adam Carter 9:53 AM[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Colonel Russel Williams instilled trust in dignitaries Queen Elizabeth II, Prince Philip, the Governor General and Prime Minister of Canada and he was still a self-confessed rapist and murderer.

 

[Claroon]

"He didn't attempt to hide in the shadows."
by Adam Carter 9:54 AM

No, but he waited until it was dark to arrive. I wonder why? (rhetorical)

 

[Claroon]

"The Crown says Mr. Millard knew he would murder Mr. Bosma ... is this the demeanor of a man who is about to kill another man?" Pillay asks.
by Adam Carter 9:55 AM[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Very likely if he's a sociopath. (Folks I"m late to the party, forgive my exuberance in posting replies.LOL)

 

[swedie]

IMO Pillay did absolutely nothing to raise reasonable doubt for his client. I think if I can come back with at least one logical explanation for almost each point he raised today in his closing, the jurors can also...shush: I think he knows that :giggle. IF DM was so upset with MS shooting TB, WTH did DM follow through with keeping the truck after TB's murder?! Wouldn't it make more sense to someone in DM's "alleged" position innocent dupe of murder, drive TB's truck to some secluded area and set it on fire destroying evidence contained within instead of being caught red handed?! It just goes to prove how desperate DM was and how badly he wanted a diesel truck. He was so desperate to possess a truck, DM made an appointment to have TB's truck painted...until he found out this case was major news. He allowed other employees to see TB's truck sitting in his hangar, stripped down. Even when he had a suspicion LE were onto him, he moved the truck to his mother's driveway instead of destroying it with all its evidence. He was hoping his suspicion was wrong, LE would turn their sights away from him, he could then tow TB's truck back to the hangar and continue on his intended mission of fixing it up for the road trip to Mexico. IMO the guy is an absolute delusional psycho who thought he was smarter than LE and would get away with TB's murder and every crime he committed. I guess no one in his life ever told him eventually your past catches up with you. Sheesh I really have a good grasp now on how truly narcissistic and psycho DM is. This guy isn't getting out of prison alive IMO...and thankfully.

I have faith the jurors have the common sense and see Pillay's closing statement as DM's lies sprinkled with a few facts tossed in for reality and good measure. Pillay was just working for his client trying to raise reasonable doubt...but failed miserably and perhaps deliberately. I continue to believe there are decent lawyers out there who do have a morals, a conscience, soul and heart and do believe in seeing justice served for the victims. ALL MOO.

 

[Claroon]

Pillay says the fact that there were no "common sense measures" to protect his identity show that Millard had no plan to kill.
by Adam Carter 9:56 AM

But he's proven he has no common sense, period. Sorry dude.

 

[billandrew]

IMO Pillay did absolutely nothing to raise reasonable doubt for his client. I think if I can come back with at least one logical explanation for almost each point he raised today in his closing, the jurors can also...shush: I think he knows that :giggle. IF DM was so upset with MS shooting TB, WTH did DM follow through with keeping the truck after TB's murder?! Wouldn't it make more sense to someone in DM's "alleged" position innocent dupe of murder, drive TB's truck to some secluded area and set it on fire destroying evidence contained within instead of being caught red handed?! It just goes to prove how desperate DM was and how badly he wanted a diesel truck. He was so desperate to possess a truck, DM made an appointment to have TB's truck painted...until he found out this case was major news. He allowed other employees to see TB's truck sitting in his hangar, stripped down. Even when he had a suspicion LE were onto him, he moved the truck to his mother's driveway instead of destroying it with all its evidence. He was hoping his suspicion was wrong, LE would turn their sights away from him, he could then tow TB's truck back to the hangar and continue on his intended mission of fixing it up for the road trip to Mexico. IMO the guy is an absolute delusional psycho who thought he was smarter than LE and would get away with TB's murder and every crime he committed. I guess no one in his life ever told him eventually your past catches up with you. Sheesh I really have a good grasp now on how truly narcissistic and psycho DM is. This guy isn't getting out of prison alive IMO...and thankfully.

I have faith the jurors have the common sense and see Pillay's closing statement as DM's lies sprinkled with a few facts tossed in for reality and good measure. Pillay was just working for his client trying to raise reasonable doubt...but failed miserably and perhaps deliberately. I continue to believe there are decent lawyers out there who do have a morals, a conscience, soul and heart and do believe in seeing justice served for the victims. ALL MOO.

Nice post. And welcome back!

 

[Claroon]

He says that demeanor shows that Smich knew what was coming.
by Adam Carter 9:58 AM

bbm - I'm thinking he's disrespecting MS's cloak of innocence. Also, Yes, MS knew he was following an idiot into dangerous territory. IMO

 

[Claroon]

"He was clearly trying to hide something," Pillay says.
by Adam Carter 9:58 AM

He says that demeanor shows that Smich knew what was coming.
by Adam Carter 9:58 AM

Pillay now mentioning the other thefts. "Mr. Millard is not a reckless person when it comes to these thefts," Pillay says. He's "methodical."
by Adam Carter 9:59 AM

bbm - he's methodical, just look at how well he juggled multiple girls at once in a high-stress situation. (joking)

 

[palisadesk]

Thx for your thoughtful response. However, the reason it sounded strange is I specifically remember RB saying that he watched the vehicles continue west on book road toward Brantford for some time

Thanks for that, I didn't look it up again. But that only confirms my impression that Bullman is correct (and therefore I'll toss out my second hypothesis, that he didn't see them cross Trinity). If they drove west on Book, they would soon have come to a stretch where the houses/farms are far apart and set way back from the road. It would have been easy there to pull into a driveway, back out and turn around, coming back to Trinity. People do that sort of thing all the time (I must see someone doing that in my driveway at least twice a week). It's possible that DM spotted Bullman, or someone else, and took that route deliberately to avoid detection, or so he thought.

Book Rd. comes to a dead end a few km west, but I wouldn't think they would go that way to Brantford, though they might have gone to Alberton Road and back up to Wilson. That would mean however they weren't the vehicles seen by the Supersucker video camera. Although the expert Plaxton emphasized that the vehicles were consistent with the Bosma truck (in three instances) and the Bosma truck followed by the Yukon(in the last instance), he agreed that fell short of a firm identification. However I'm inclined to think that all three instances he referred to (re the Bosma truck) and the two concerning the possible Yukon, were in fact the vehicles driven by the accused. The case doesn't stand or fall on this evidence, but in context, I find it reasonably convincing, and think both the video AND Bullman are correct..

 

[Claroon]

If the plan was to murder, "why not keep every part of the plan secret?" Pillay asks.
by Adam Carter 10:05 AM

They were looking for a truck while Marlena Meneses was in the room, Pillay says.
by Adam Carter 10:06 AM

They didn't get along, yet Millard was "talking openly" about it in front of her, Pillay says. "It's creating evidence against you before you even commit the crime. It makes no sense at all."
by Adam Carter 10:07 AM

I'd say because by then he was completely desensitized, had a false believe in his friends' loyalty, and was completely delusional.

 

[billandrew]

A good vacation book to read is Meyer Levin's fictionalized book about that case, Compulsion. It's gripping, and pretty well sticks to the facts of the case -- written as a novel in order to avoid lawsuits IIRC (U.S. libel laws differ from Canadian ones in important ways, and the fact that the story you write is true is not a protection there).

But while Loeb and Leopold thought they were geniuses, they actually were in the near-genius range intellectually, while there's no evidence whatever that DM or MS are anything but average in the IQ department. Both indeed may have learning issues, and the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that DM exhibits signs of fetal alcohol damage (no worries, it does not exculpate a person from criminal responsibility -- it's not a mental illness). It could go together with psychopathy, if he is diagnosed with that, or could be separate. MB would know, of course, and an fMRI could probably show typical areas of damage. DM's verbal prowess, so vastly superior to his completely moronic grip on finances, is a classic sign, as is his compulsive sexual promiscuity, his inability to plan realistically, to take consequences into account, to follow through on things ("executive function" in the jargon of the field), to make and keep friends of his own age, and on and on.

MS does not strike me as either psychopathic or FAS, just a common criminal type. The fact that he had been in trouble with the law from early days, despite a fairly strong family (apparently) and did poorly in school, may indicate learning disabilities or behaviour disorders in his early years, hard to know. It's not unusual for kids with LD to run into trouble with the law as early as elementary school, due to poor impulse control, running with the wrong crowd, feeling like failures due to academic struggles, and so on. Not an excuse, but social problems are very common among youngsters with LD. Programs like those of the Integra Foundation can help prevent them escalating. I don't know if any of this applies to MS, but if some does, he has a better chance of rehabilitation over the long term. For FAS or psychopathy, the prospects of significant change is slim to none.

Thanks, palisadesk. The insights on FAS and LD are really interesting. I've read that DM's father was quite the alcoholic, but I'm not sure about his mother. One common thing that DM and MS shared is that both of their parents divorced when they were young.