Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #1

[Gibson67]

I really don't know how he (AJ) slept at night and how he was able to go about his day with all the media coverage and Sharlene begging on TV for anyone to let him go...and for SS to not walk away from that building and never look back..boggles my mind...why would he do anything after that for DM?

 

[DeepWoodsOff]

Thanks for the picture, I thought it was described as being on his forearm in something I read this week. Does anyone else find it odd that he noticed the tiny tattoo but not the much larger one on the same arm? Was DM was wearing a tee shirt on that test drive? I can't remember now. If it's on his left arm, he must have noticed it when he was driving and DM was the passenger.

I still want to see Igor's drawing of it made when it was still fresh in his memory.

BBM This comment is related to me personally and not a general statement about how people in general perceive things.... For me, I don't notice tattoos on people that are in the usual, more common places on the body. I wouldn't notice a tattoo on someone's shoulder, ankle etc. etc. but I would notice it on their neck, wrist etc. Now I would probably mentally note that I saw a tattoo on their shoulder but it wouldn't register any further than that. The more unorthodox areas of the body stand out for me. MOO

 

[andreww]

Wondergirl mentioned about there being other stamps like the VIN on a vehicle. I think the other ID stamps on the truck were sanded down and the spray cans were to cover up the areas where the filing/scraping happened. I don't even think cared anymore about the blood inside of the vehicle since the seats and interior were out and he would just say he was modding the truck for an off-roading event like the Baja 500 in Mexico. He left the truck out in view because he already had the story and no one ever was supposed to question a job they were working on. He could say he was putting new seats in for handling hills, jumps, etc. He still had his other red Dodge because it was towed away from the hangar after his arrest so Tim's truck wasn't going to be scrapped. He wanted it prepped and painted even after a guy died in it. JMO

That makes sense. When you use a truck for racing you need to strip the interior and put in a roll cage, racing seats, etc. VIN is unimportant unless you are going to drive it on the road.

My big question is why he stole it? Millard had money. Didn't he pay cash for that condo a few days later?

 

[andreww]

I really don't know how he (AJ) slept at night and how he was able to go about his day with all the media coverage and Sharlene begging on TV for anyone to let him go...and for SS to not walk away from that building and never look back..boggles my mind...why would he do anything after that for DM?

I honestly think AJs biggest problem was that his SIL was still being loyal to Millard. If AJ walks away, whose to say the SIL doesn't go missing? AJ might not have known it but his intuitions were correct. Millard had already killed three people by this point and he probably would have had no problem making it four if it meant staying out of jail.

 

[DeepWoodsOff]

I honestly think AJs biggest problem was that his SIL was still being loyal to Millard. If AJ walks away, whose to say the SIL doesn't go missing? AJ might not have known it but his intuitions were correct. Millard had already killed three people by this point and he probably would have had no problem making it four if it meant staying out of jail.

BBM

Precisely. And add in the fact that at this point AJ doesn't know if SIL is involved directly with this. He may have been thinking, if I call the cops, I'm calling them on my SIL. MOO

 

[Kamille]

Obviously Millard's only interest here was the truck. I just don't get why he felt he had to kill TB to get it? Why not just steal the truck at night? The way I see this is that DM needed the truck in a hurry, probably tied in to his urgent need for the trailer. I believe he wanted the ignition intact, which explains why he would want the owner and the key in the truck, and why he didn't hotwire one from a lot. I believe that the plan was to simply pull a gun on TB, take his phone and dump him in the middle of nowhere. I believe TB, who really needed the money for that truck, resisted and was gunned down. Ask yourself why, if Millard's plan was to execute TB, did he allow himself to be seen by TB's wife and neighbour? Ask yourself if Millard was planning on gunning down the guy the previous day in downtown Toronto in the middle of the day? I believe Millard was aware that police don't put a huge amount of resources in to car thefts. Its easier and cheaper to just wait for the vehicle to turn up and hopefully solve the crime via fingerprints. So I don't think he was overly cautious about concealing his identity at that point. The crime was never meant to be more than a car jacking.

This is the most plausible theory and the one I’ve adhered to since the beginning. The intent was to steal a vehicle. A Dodge Ram with a Cummins Diesel engine to haul a heavy trailer. Likely another trailer with another Jeep in it for the Baja race it appears to me. He told Igor that he wanted the truck to haul other cars for racing. Or maybe just hot cars they were delivering to potential new owners and they needed a second truck and trailer ensemble. The events from the day before with Igor made DM feel the necessity of carrying a gun. They parked the Yukon a distance from the home and walked to TB’s. They stopped the truck at the place where they parked the Yukon and ordered TB out. They did not show a gun, it was concealed because showing it would escalate the crime to armed robbery. TB balked. He probably thought this was going to be a fight with DM that he thought he could win or he tried to reason with him, more likely the latter. He didn’t want that truck stolen.

DM was running on adrenaline and possibly his drug of choice. He didn’t want to deal with this guy trying to reason with him, he wanted to get the hell out of there and get on with this plan. He couldn’t abort at this point because the intent to steal the truck was already known. So he pulled out the gun and shot him. I don’t think DM kills for the thrill, just the necessity. And he thinks nothing of it because he doesn’t process that emotion like most people. This all could have happened in a matter of minutes not far from the Bosma home. Somewhere before the corner of Wilson and Trinity where the video surveillance caught the two vehicles together.

MS jumps in the Yukon and they take off out of the area. Perhaps they start driving backroads trying to figure out what to do at this point. DM leading in the Ram, MS following in the Yukon. Eventually they end up on Oak Park Dr and find a secluded driveway at Kemira to pull into to assess the situation. Lucky for them the cameras at Kemira only film up to the gate, which is quite a distance from the road. They find TB’s cell phone on his person, shut it off and throw it away into the ditch. They decide to head to the farm to pick up the incinerator and take it to the hangar. And then we know the rest.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

The placement is the same, and we can't see the word to know if it's caps or not. But there's a tattoo on his wrist in the same place Igor said it was. The box around it baffles me, that's the only thing that rationalizes it in my head lol

Igor apparently could not identify if the tattoo was capital letters or cursive or whatever. He just read the word and remembered the word but not the physical appearance. All he remembers was that it was rectangle shaped like it was in a box. But the tattoo in all caps IS rectangle shaped. I really think that's where the discrepancy is coming from.

MOO

ETA: I also believe he mentioned there were other tattoos but he couldn't remember the details of any of them. Probably because the large scroll is on the inside of his forearms.

 

[DeepWoodsOff]

This is the most plausible theory and the one I’ve adhered to since the beginning. The intent was to steal a vehicle. A Dodge Ram with a Cummins Diesel engine to haul a heavy trailer. Likely another trailer with another Jeep in it for the Baja race it appears to me. Or maybe just hot cars they were delivering to potential new owners and they needed a second truck and trailer ensemble. The events from the day before with Igor made DM feel the necessity of carrying a gun. They parked the Yukon a distance from the home and walked to TB’s. They stopped the truck at the place where they parked the Yukon and ordered TB out. They did not show a gun, it was concealed because showing it would escalate the crime to armed robbery. TB balked. He probably thought this was going to be a fight with that he could win or he tried to reason with him. He didn’t want that truck stolen.

DM was running on adrenaline and possibly his drug of choice. He didn’t want to deal with this guy trying to reason with him, he wanted to get the hell out of there and get on with this plan. He couldn’t abort at this point because the intent to steal the truck was already known. So he pulled out the gun and shot him. I don’t think DM kills for the thrill, just the necessity. And he thinks nothing of it because he doesn’t process that emotion like most people. This all could have happened in a matter of minutes not far from the Bosma home. Somewhere before the corner of Wilson and Trinity where the video surveillance caught the two vehicles together.

MS jumps in the Yukon and they take off out of the area. Perhaps they start driving backroads trying to figure out what to do at this point. DM leading in the Ram, MS following in the Yukon. Eventually they end up on Oak Park Dr and find a secluded driveway at Kemira to pull into to assess the situation. Lucky for them the cameras at Kemira only film up to the gate, which is quite a distance from the road. They find TB’s cell phone on his person, shut it off and throw it away into the ditch. They decide to head to the farm to pick up the incinerator and take it to the hangar. And then we know the rest.

MOO

A lot of good points by both.

The one thing I struggle with is why they didn't just steal the vehicle. Igor indicated DM was excited on the phone when he heard his truck was parked outside. Why the huge jump from truck theft to murder and incineration? Yes...by going this route the ignition would be intact etc. but it seems he did have some form of a chop shop running out of that hangar with, what I assume were a lot of mechanically oriented people....you would think they could have easily and quickly swapped out another Dodge ignition assembly. Available at your local auto wrecker or parts distributor...or acquired by other means. MOO

 

[HackD]

His tattoos were on file? Where exactly? As far as I know Canada does not have a tattoo database.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/297569867/Crown-s-opening-address

 

[ArianeEmory]

That makes sense. When you use a truck for racing you need to strip the interior and put in a roll cage, racing seats, etc. VIN is unimportant unless you are going to drive it on the road.

My big question is why he stole it? Millard had money. Didn't he pay cash for that condo a few days later?

Why did he have a stolen Harley Davidson and the trailer that went with it in his hangar?

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/30/stolen-harley-found-on-property-of-accused-tim-bosma-killer

'Has money' does not automatically exclude 'thinks and behaves like a criminal'.

 

[iknowhim2]

I agree he needed it urgently, with the way AJ described he needed to get the trailer finished up, seems he was up to something.
He went to a whole lot of effort to get this specific truck. Burner phone, calling ads, meeting up with them to test drive.

When you say gunned down, do you think they let him out somewhere and then shot him? Then put his body back in the truck?

There are many holes to this theory, but I truly think that somehow, just somehow Tim made sure himself that phone would be found. I think the browser was NOT a mistake and I think the stop at Kamira was where things got sketchy and TB was shot. MOO.

 

[Kamille]

A lot of good points by both.

The one thing I struggle with is why they didn't just steal the vehicle. Igor indicated DM was excited on the phone when he heard his truck was parked outside. Why the huge jump from truck theft to murder and incineration? Yes...by going this route the ignition would be intact etc. but it seems he did have some form of a chop shop running out of that hangar with, what I assume were a lot of mechanically oriented people....you would think they could have easily and quickly swapped out another Dodge ignition assembly. Available at your local auto wrecker or parts distributor...or acquired by other means. MOO

It is more risky to steal parked cars these day because of increased video surveillance on homes and in parking lots. Car jacking seems to be on the increase. And you would have no idea if the truck you stole even runs, has the engine specs you're looking for or is a lemon. Then you'd have to go out and steal another one and start all over. No time for that.

MOO

 

[ArianeEmory]

This is the most plausible theory and the one I’ve adhered to since the beginning. The intent was to steal a vehicle. A Dodge Ram with a Cummins Diesel engine to haul a heavy trailer. Likely another trailer with another Jeep in it for the Baja race it appears to me. He told Igor that he wanted the truck to haul other cars for racing. Or maybe just hot cars they were delivering to potential new owners and they needed a second truck and trailer ensemble. The events from the day before with Igor made DM feel the necessity of carrying a gun. They parked the Yukon a distance from the home and walked to TB’s. They stopped the truck at the place where they parked the Yukon and ordered TB out. They did not show a gun, it was concealed because showing it would escalate the crime to armed robbery. TB balked. He probably thought this was going to be a fight with DM that he thought he could win or he tried to reason with him, more likely the latter. He didn’t want that truck stolen.

DM was running on adrenaline and possibly his drug of choice. He didn’t want to deal with this guy trying to reason with him, he wanted to get the hell out of there and get on with this plan. He couldn’t abort at this point because the intent to steal the truck was already known. So he pulled out the gun and shot him. I don’t think DM kills for the thrill, just the necessity. And he thinks nothing of it because he doesn’t process that emotion like most people. This all could have happened in a matter of minutes not far from the Bosma home. Somewhere before the corner of Wilson and Trinity where the video surveillance caught the two vehicles together.

MS jumps in the Yukon and they take off out of the area. Perhaps they start driving backroads trying to figure out what to do at this point. DM leading in the Ram, MS following in the Yukon. Eventually they end up on Oak Park Dr and find a secluded driveway at Kemira to pull into to assess the situation. Lucky for them the cameras at Kemira only film up to the gate, which is quite a distance from the road. They find TB’s cell phone on his person, shut it off and throw it away into the ditch. They decide to head to the farm to pick up the incinerator and take it to the hangar. And then we know the rest.

MOO

BBM. I am somewhat more open to the idea of a struggle due to the rear-view mirror dangling. And I can get behind "DM kills out of necessity" as a theory, and it makes sense in the case of WM.

But why did Laura Babcock need to die?

 

[caseyjonesin905]

If if there were so many other stolen vehicles, why hasn't the crown brought it up yet? Are they waiting until later to try to come up with a motive? I would think that if there was any evidence that DM was running a chop shop, that it would have come up in the opening statements, or at least when AJ was discussing what business was going on at the hanger.

I could see AJ not wanting to bring it up if it looked like he knowingly did his co-op at a chop shop, but why wouldn't the crown mention it, unless there was no evidence of it? Even if there was only enough evidence to make a strong suspicion of a criminal enterprise being run from the hanger, I think that the crown would throw in if they had anything to at all to tie it to.

Just my opinion.

Maybe that info is needed in another trial, and isn't necessarily needed for this one, since the evidence they've got is red hot already. . I'm willing to put blue collar money on the fact that AJ was getting his diploma in shipping and receiving so he could better assist with this chop shop/hangar. Almost like having a cop on the payroll, they can chop and ship all over the place under the guise of an already established, well regarded family business.. The big truck that HAD to be able to tow a trailer big enough to move a car.. this was metioned over and over again.. Paperwork, check.. border crossing.. check... Like I said before, its super duper tricky to steal a car off the street these days.. kijiji, auto trader listings could be sitting ducks..
This all ties into the other charges.. No doubt in my mind..
just a thought though..

 

[loveisthemovement]

No Igor pic yet? :waiting:

 

[Kamille]

BBM. I am somewhat more open to the idea of a struggle due to the rear-view mirror dangling. And I can get behind "DM kills out of necessity" as a theory, and it makes sense in the case of WM.

But why did Laura Babcock need to die?

She was a nuisance? She knew something she shouldn't? A few people have indicated that AJ may have been at risk if he had not gone to his wife and daughter and had just confronted DM about the truck.

I'm sure the reason for LB's demise will come out at her trial. And unfortunately I'm sure it will be absurd.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Maybe that info is needed in another trial, and isn't necessarily needed for this one, since the evidence they've got is red hot already. . I'm willing to put blue collar money on the fact that AJ was getting his diploma in shipping and receiving so he could better assist with this chop shop/hangar. Almost like having a cop on the payroll, they can chop and ship all over the place under the guise of an already established, well regarded family business.. The big truck that HAD to be able to tow a trailer big enough to move a car.. this was metioned over and over again.. Paperwork, check.. border crossing.. check... Like I said before, its super duper tricky to steal a car off the street these days.. kijiji, auto trader listings could be sitting ducks..
This all ties into the other charges.. No doubt in my mind..
just a thought though..

AJ was working toward a diploma in Supply Chain Management...nothing at all whatsoever to do with building a trailer with lumber from Home Depot. Ridiculous isn't it? But DM would have signed off on that co-op under the title of CEO of MillardAir, a non business. But no one apparently realized that.

MOO

 

[Errrr]

and why was the incinerator moved from inside the barn to the trees? Did DM think the barn might be searched but not the property? I would think inside the barn it was hidden especially if they did arial search?

Evidence is more damning if there's attempt to conceal it. It is the premise DM always relies on. Police would be unlikely to be searching for such a thing as well. The truck hidden in his moms driveway is going to be impossible to explain away.

 

[Kamille]

No Igor pic yet? :waiting:

:floorlaugh:

He's getting a following. Someone needs to tweet one of the news photographers to let them know how in demand his pic is so they make sure to get one on Monday.

 

[raffielle]

Just my take on the whole AJ not disclosing all the information to the police right away. I think he knew that DM’s business and his employment was not legitimate, to what degree I don’t know but I believe that the thought of himself and his son in law being charged with an offense (because I think he was a part of some the shady business dealings) might be likely should the police start snooping around . He wanted to weigh the consequences and discuss it with his family including his son in law and possible figure out how to hide their involvement.

I also think that he knows a lot more than he is revealing and I think his involvement in this whole thing is larger than we are lead to believe. I can’t help but wonder why DM gave him the FOB to enter the business when he did. Been working there for 3-4 months having to depend on his SIL to let him in the building each morning but (can’t remember the exact timing) a day or two before or after the killing he is given a FOB. Hmmm….seems fishy to me. Does anyone remember the timing of when he was given the FOB to access the building?