Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #11

[SnooperDuper]

I wonder if the crown would be better served to have those letters read to the jury before or after her testimony? I ask this assuming she is a reluctant witness?

I think they would only make her read her own words, as previous witnesses have read out their own texts. We don't know if they have both sides of the correspondence - we only know that they found DM's letters to her. I wonder where CN's letters ended up - if DM was hording them in his cell and if LE ever found them.

 

[hellkat2]

Sorry, but you're saying a Mexican drug cartel might have approached Dellen Millard to import stolen mid-range trucks all the way from eastern Canada? One at a time?

Obviously everyone gets to entertain any theory they want--we certainly learned that in the first couple of years on these threads--but sometimes you have to apply Occam's Razor.

DM wanted to run his own little empire, not be beholden to some shadowy crime org half a continent away. JMO

One could say Occam's Razor theory could be applied to the who texted who and when and what time and from what phone. Yes we have certainly learned in the first couple of years on these threads haven't we. I guess I am one of those people who entertain any theory I want.

 

[Inspector_North]

I have a bad feeling about this star witness. I think she has been discredited already by saying she heard about it on the news. I don't think that is simple problem related to her recall of the event. I am making hypothetical statements in response to questions about motives etc. That is how I can make statements without a shred of evidence. It is simply coming up with probability theories. I believe that if a witness is not credible that you cannot believe a lot of what is said. And basically you are left with why the witness would be evasive. What is the motive. I don't think there is anything anyone could say about this case in discussion that would not be a theory. Based on the witnesses that all seem to be part of DM band of car thieves.

I understand your feeling about MM, but I take another approach angle. Her statement about hearing it on the news is import, because she is fairly detailed about the series of events that occurred immediately after.

From MM's statement, I take this sequence of events happening all within minutes
1) saw DM's arrest on the news
2) she asked MS why his friend was being arrested for that crime
3) MS panicked, grabbed the phone and called AM to get the drugs out of the house. We know that to be 9:20 p.m. on the 10th.

So for me, it is important that she saw it on the news or some other source that would explain the immediate post series of events she claims. Otherwise, what else is she not remembering correctly? For most of these minions, it has been minimizing their involvement that their testimony has been less for than forthright. LW_2 is a total different story.

SS, AM, MH, and even JV have all provided damaging statements of DM, They just seem to be very dumb when it comes to their knowledge or common sense of their involvement. MM is coming across as the only adult of the bunch, and credibility of her recollection is important.

I like to shore up the known evidence before speculating on something probable based on no evidence, or evidence that we're not even sure is correct at this point in the trial. We have tracked the news of DM's arrest to being released May 11th around 11:00 am, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It would please me to have a sleuther find evidence that she heard it on the news. That would be a BAZINGA!!
MOO

 

[hellkat2]

One could say Occam's Razor theory could be applied to the who texted who and when and what time and from what phone. Yes we have certainly learned in the first couple of years on these threads haven't we. I guess I am one of those people who entertain any theory I want.

oh...never said it was a drug cartel. I said cartel of the auto thieving variety. There are lots. I have posted URL from Toronto newspapers about them. Google it you will find lots. Oh that and containers that are shipped overseas. I will apply Occams theory to that and see what I come up with.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I stopped thinking so hard about MM saying she saw DM on the news on the 10th when it turned out another witness (was it JV?) said the same thing. Or has this been disproven?

 

[SnooperDuper]

33 DivisionVerified account ‏@TPS33Div
Suspect has "Ambition" tattoo on wrist search for Tim Bosma http://bit.ly/16mIF9t
3:49 PM - 10 May 2013

 

[SnooperDuper]

oh...never said it was a drug cartel. I said cartel of the auto thieving variety. There are lots. I have posted URL from Toronto newspapers about them. Google it you will find lots. Oh that and containers that are shipped overseas. I will apply Occams theory to that and see what I come up with.

Well please start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

 

[ArianeEmory]

oh...never said it was a drug cartel. I said cartel of the auto thieving variety. There are lots. I have posted URL from Toronto newspapers about them. Google it you will find lots. Oh that and containers that are shipped overseas. I will apply Occams theory to that and see what I come up with.

Yes, organized crime and car theft rings and shipping containers all exist. But the evidence so far points to DM wanting to collect all the toys and keep them for himself, at least during these early missions. His old truck was, well, old, so I really don't see it fetching much on the black market. He hadn't bothered to fence his other big stolen items, like the Harley or the Bobcat.

I'm sure that eventually he pictured funneling people and stolen goods through his murder assembly line, but all he cared about in the murder of Tim was getting himself a diesel truck to take him to Baja. Many witnesses have testified to his intention to acquire one.

I'm not sure why people get snarky about Occam's Razor (well, I know why DM's early defenders did). The explanation with the fewest moving parts often tends to be dead on. People were speculating way back in 2013 that DM wanted this diesel truck to go to Baja, and the evidence has borne that out.

 

[hellkat2]

I understand your feeling about MM, but I take another approach angle. Her statement about hearing it on the news is import, because she is fairly detailed about the series of events that occurred immediately after.

From MM's statement, I take this sequence of events happening all within minutes
1) saw DM's arrest on the news
2) she asked MS why his friend was being arrested for that crime
3) MS panicked, grabbed the phone and called AM to get the drugs out of the house. We know that to be 9:20 p.m. on the 10th.

So for me, it is important that she saw it on the news or some other source that would explain the immediate post series of events she claims. Otherwise, what else is she not remembering correctly? For most of these minions, it has been minimizing their involvement that their testimony has been less for than forthright. LW_2 is a total different story.

SS, AM, MH, and even JV have all provided damaging statements of DM, They just seem to be very dumb when it comes to their knowledge or common sense of their involvement. MM is coming across as the only adult of the bunch, and credibility of her recollection is important.

I like to shore up the known evidence before speculating on something probable based on no evidence, or evidence that we're not even sure is correct at this point in the trial. We have tracked the news of DM's arrest to being released May 11th around 11:00 am, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It would please me to have a sleuther find evidence that she heard it on the news. That would be a BAZINGA!!
MOO

I will see what I can do with regards to assisting with this BASINGA moment...re heard it on the news. Perhaps my googling will astound.

 

[Inspector_North]

I stopped thinking so hard about MM saying she saw DM on the news on the 10th when it turned out another witness (was it JV?) said the same thing. Or has this been disproven?

Only not proven by lack of evidence it occurred. JV making an error is not nearly as important as MM with only two witnesses left for the crown according to reports. I feel the jury has enough on DM to prove premeditated, but not for MS without MM's testimony lending some weight.

The only reason I still seek an answer, is some posts are questioning MM's credibility based on this unproven claim.

It may all be a mute point after cross examination tomorrow.

MOO

 

[hellkat2]

Er, no. It's been made pretty clear Dellen wanted this specific diesel Dodge Ram *for himself*, hence the arrangements to try to swap VINs and paint it the color of the one he already had. He wanted to use it to haul his racing jeep. He even texted LW2 about his plans to acquire a diesel truck. No one was getting this truck except him. He'd already put its key on his own key ring.

He was gonna colour it red and keep it for himself and transfer his VIN to it. He was gonna put his own truck on the container ship or have someone drive it across the boarder to Mexico for him. This is a possibility.

 

[MsSherlock]

I stopped thinking so hard about MM saying she saw DM on the news on the 10th when it turned out another witness (was it JV?) said the same thing. Or has this been disproven?

You are correct- JV made a similar statement. IIRC, Molley Hayes tweeted it on March 23. It perked up my ears, but I quickly slid it back on the importance meter when neither of the D's questioned it. IMHO, if it was important and could have been used to discredit JV, it would have come up as an issue during his cross examination. MOO

 

[hellkat2]

Well please start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Already read the ocscam theory. yes i am aware of the spelling mistake.

 

[Inspector_North]

33 DivisionVerified account ‏@TPS33Div
Suspect has "Ambition" tattoo on wrist search for Tim Bosma http://bit.ly/16mIF9t
3:49 PM - 10 May 2013

I considered that, but MS's actions at 9:20 pm May 10th indicate he knew he was arrested. He told AM that they got Dell, and proceeded to give instructions to AM like he knew DM couldn't do it himself. He also instructed AM to get the toolbox from MH. This tells me that DM told MS about the whereabouts of the gun, and possibly prearranged a series of house cleaning tasks if he was arrested. That last part is speculation based on what MS knew and what he proceeded to do immediately after hearing of DM's arrest.

Remember, that up to that point, it was DM who was cleaning up the mission. And any MS involvement was that of a minion, not someone in charge. Things took a drastic change in directions at approximately 9:20 pm on May 10th.

MOO

 

[hellkat2]

Yes, organized crime and car theft rings and shipping containers all exist. But the evidence so far points to DM wanting to collect all the toys and keep them for himself, at least during these early missions. His old truck was, well, old, so I really don't see it fetching much on the black market. He hadn't bothered to fence his other big stolen items, like the Harley or the Bobcat.

I'm sure that eventually he pictured funneling people and stolen goods through his murder assembly line, but all he cared about in the murder of Tim was getting himself a diesel truck to take him to Baja. Many witnesses have testified to his intention to acquire one.

I'm not sure why people get snarky about Occam's Razor (well, I know why DM's early defenders did). The explanation with the fewest moving parts often tends to be dead on. People were speculating way back in 2013 that DM wanted this diesel truck to go to Baja, and the evidence has borne that out.

Now you could do that without the theory could you not. This is good common sense. And you may be dead on. And there is always the follow the money theory that can be applied a great deal of the time.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I considered that, but MS's actions at 9:20 pm May 10th indicate he knew he was arrested. He told AM that they got Dell, and proceeded to give instructions to AM like he knew DM couldn't do it himself. He also instructed AM to get the toolbox from MH. This tells me that DM told MS about the whereabouts of the gun, and possibly prearranged a series of house cleaning tasks if he was arrested. That last part is speculation based on what MS knew and what he proceeded to do immediately after hearing of DM's arrest.

Remember, that up to that point, it was DM who was cleaning up the mission. And any MS involvement was that of a minion, not someone in charge. Things took a drastic change in directions at approximately 9:20 pm on May 10th.

MOO

I think they saw an update on the 9 o'clock news that included the better description of DM including the tattoo, and MS knew then that LE was onto DM.

I think MS only found out where the gun was through AM/MH.

 

[danniko]

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[hellkat2]

Huh? DM wanted the diesel truck to pull his Jeep to the Baja race.

Yes he did but that may have been before the victim got shot in it.

 

[billandrew]

I think they saw an update on the 9 o'clock news that included the better description of DM including the tattoo, and MS knew then that LE was onto DM.

I think MS only found out where the gun was through AM/MH.

It's also probable that somebody called Smich to notify him of Millard's arrest. It was Millard's right to make a phone call as soon as possible after he was arrested, and he could have instructed whoever he called (such as his lawyer or mother) to notify Smich and others like Noudga. Noudga's last attempts to reach Millard that evening -- that we know about -- were a text ("call me") at 9:10pm followed by a phone call at 9:12pm. Since there was nothing after that, we could infer that she was notified of Millard's arrest shortly after.

 

[MsSherlock]

In concern to MM and MS. According to Adam Carter on April 21, MM testified:

"She says she hasn't talked to Smich since he was arrested, and they're no longer together. #TimBosma #Bosma"[/COLOR]

Yet, in Jan/15, we hear that MS has been charged for breaching his recognizance in spring/summer of 2014 for making contact with MM.

"Documents filed with the courthouse in Etobicoke say the alleged breach of recognizance happened between April 10 and July 31 of last year while Smich was in custody at the Toronto West Detention Centre."

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5262706-co-accused-in-bosma-murder-case-faces-new-charge/

Could be that it was a one sided communication from MS to MM and went straight to LE. She says in her testimony that she hasn't "spoken to him", not that she hasn't had contact with him. IMO, if it was in concern to the LB case it may be off limits with this one. I'm curious if P & S are going to bring this "communication" up tomorrow. MOO