Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #11

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3. Then your statement about the witnesses walking free. For someone to go to prison they need to actually have committed a crime. The police has deemed that they have committed no criminal acts and if they did commit criminal acts the police has deemed it does not have a strong case against them. All these witnesses are guilty of as far as I understand is associating with people who have poor character and wanting to protect themselves. However, I'm sure many average people are guilty of that. Furthermore, calling them liars is normative. Overall, I personally believe that overall the story has been consistent.

Thanks for this. I think a lot of people have been pretty hard on the witnesses rather than thinking, there, young and stupid, by the grace of God go I.

DM and MS were unique in the group in fantasizing about murder. DM didn't buy his friends with money, he bought them with their own dreams, and none of the other players had nefarious dreams. A home, a luxury lifestyle, clothes...none of that was about murder.
 
I agree and am thinking if she admits now she knows where it is, she would incriminate herself for hiding the whereabouts of a concealed weapon used in murder, perhaps
IMO.

They can't use your testimony in court against you.
 
IMO...ms followed dm like a puppy dog. smetch's gf said smich was in love with dellen which implies a little more than your regular bromance. Mallard and smich can write love letters to each other in prison for the rest of their life for all I care. ... Justice delayed is justice denied. IMO it gives the criminals lots of time to lawyer up and get their stories carefully scripted to support the case that both the defense and the prosecution are attempting to build. The former partners in crime of Mallard and Smich are testifying to attempt to save themselves from prosecution. IMO evil walks amongst the family of the victim and there is something intrinsically wrong with this. In a lot of ways ...justice must be seen to have been done but the length of time this has taken to get to trial and the fact that the family is watching these people testifying against their buddy dellen and then walking free and around them in the court room is not seeing justice in my opinion. Particularly for the family of the victims, it is victimizing and the fact that they are having to revisit this over two years later is not a good thing. This should have been cut a dried and would have been if they got this to trial in a timely manner. Thanks for your thought provoking comments.

Appreciate your passion. Victim's families go through this all the time--many walk through appeal after appeal. One family in Winnipeg--parents of Candace Derkson who was killed in '84 have to go through it yet again next year 2017 as a new trial has been set. For the reasons you mention, Mrs. Derkson sought to set up a number of initiatives for victim families.

The LE needed quite a bit of this time for collecting info, analyzing it, verifying it, and lawyers to prepare their cases. We want them to be thorough. And then there is getting on the schedule with the other court cases, the long jury selection process, etc. At least the perps have been jailed. But even then, they were innocent until proven guilty. As you see from the poll taken, up until recent events there have been people thinking one or the other is not guilty. IMO

Hopefully, those who assisted the killers in their illegal missions have had time to grow up and see the problem with such involvement. I hope they see it is not fun and games but ILLEGAL and immoral. Hopefully, they will use their experience for good in the future.
 
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Thanks for this. I think a lot of people have been pretty hard on the witnesses rather than thinking, there, young and stupid, by the grace of God go I.

DM and MS were unique in the group in fantasizing about murder. DM didn't buy his friends with money, he bought them with their own dreams, and none of the other players had nefarious dreams. A home, a luxury lifestyle, clothes...none of that was about murder.

What they did was still illegal. I know plenty of people who don't and haven't done that kind of stuff. It isn't normal. It is disrespectful to property owners and it is illegal. I have had a $200 estate sign and solar lights stolen, maybe by them for kicks and I'm out the money while someone else did it for kicks or to sell the metal. In Canada you're an adult at 18, so they are not/were not kids. IMO
 
i think he knew a long time ago and that's why he's representing himself for lb--it'll give him more things to feel like he has control over, and time out of his cell to do research or whatever. Plans and schemes to make. Remember, he's already filed complaints about his lack of access to resources for that trial.

It's all a big show and he'll take whatever spotlight he can get now. Just like bundy.

bingo......
 
What they did was still illegal. I know plenty of people who don't and haven't done that kind of stuff. It isn't normal. It is disrespectful to property owners and it is illegal. I have had a $200 estate sign and solar lights stolen, maybe by them for kicks and I'm out the money while someone else did it for kicks or to sell the metal. In Canada you're an adult at 18, so they are not/were not kids. IMO

I think it is pretty normal to go through a thieving stage, as people learn why you just don't go and steal something by trying their luck at a convenience store and so on. I would actually think it abnormal that a person hadn't explored this in their lifetime. Everyone has to learn. (Some people get in more trouble than others for doing so.)
 
Appreciate your passion. Victim's families go through this all the time--many walk through appeal after appeal. One family in Winnipeg--parents of Candace Derkson who was killed in '84 have to go through it yet again next year 2017 as a new trial has been set. For the reasons you mention, Mrs. Derkson sought to set up a number of initiatives for victim families.

The LE needed quite a bit of this time for collecting info, analyzing it, verifying it, and lawyers to prepare their cases. We want them to be thorough. And then there is getting on the schedule with the other court cases, the long jury selection process, etc. At least the perps have been jailed. But even then, they were innocent until proven guilty. As you see from the poll taken, up until recent events there have been people thinking one or the other is not guilty. IMO

Hopefully, those who assisted the killers in their illegal missions have had time to grow up and see the problem with such involvement. I hope they see it is not fun and games but ILLEGAL and immoral. Hopefully, they will use their experience for good in the future.

I am not feeling as forgiving to those that have assisted. I am hoping they will incriminate themselves somehow during their testimony and spend some time in a cinder block cell. So they can use this experience for good in the future. I do appreciate your thoughts in the matter.
 
I think it is pretty normal to go through a thieving stage, as people learn why you just don't go and steal something by trying their luck at a convenience store and so on. I would actually think it abnormal that a person hadn't explored this in their lifetime. Everyone has to learn. (Some people get in more trouble than others for doing so.)

I think it may be normal to steal something as a child and feel very guilty about it and then be made to return the item. Going through a thieving stage as a young adult is a sign that something has malfunctioned somewhere along the line in a lot of cases. Something my father always said to me was this....."you can't cheat an honest man". A man I saw interviewed on TV who had been released for murder said this...."you never get caught the first time".
 
Just days before she testifies MM writes a *new* statement which she gets to refer to in court. Isn't that odd? What happens to the original one then?
The defense must have agreed to the new evidence in an argument... SO..... Can the defense team still refer to the first one during cross? anyone know?
 
Just days before she testifies MM writes a *new* statement which she gets to refer to in court. Isn't that odd? What happens to the original one then?
The defense must have agreed to the new evidence in an argument... SO..... Can the defense team still refer to the first one during cross? anyone know?

She added that DM and MS told her that they had stolen a truck, to her previous statement that they were in a celebratory mood when they came to pick her up.
 
I have a general question, not necessarily related to this case: What are the ethics of defending an accused criminal when the lawyer knows their client is guilty? I know the accused has a right to a fair trial, and I acknowledge that defense lawyers play a critical role in upholding that right. But is it ethical (or even legal, for that matter) for a defense lawyer to defend their client based on a story that they know is untrue?

It's a tricky balancing act, but let's start with this: most criminal lawyers are regularly dealing with clients who have broken the law (not all of them, but most), and so, in some sense, the client is "guilty." But guilty of what, exactly?

Take the case of the Toronto police officer who shot the boy Sammy Yatin in the streetcar. That officer was clearly guilty of firing his gun and killing the young man. But was he guilty of 2nd degree murder, manslaughter, or was it justifiable homicide in the performance of his professional duties and in accordance with his training? In that case, the nature of the accused's responsibility was what the jury had to determine, as the broad outline of the events that occurred was well known. It was by no means an open-and-shut "obvious" case - different very conscientious jurors could, and likely did, interpret the evidence differently and would reach a different verdict with respect to the officer's guilt. They ended up bringing down a verdict of guilty of attempted murder. That was probably a compromise, where different jurors felt that the officer was more (or less) culpable. Because the crime was less brutally heinous than ones like this, I don't think there was any outcry that a lawyer should not be defending him, but it illustrates one aspect of the question: the lawyer is not tasked with judging the degree or extent of the client's guilt, but with ensuring his right to a fair trial, including acting as a watchdog on evidence brought against him, putting forward any mitigating factors that may apply (the lawyer in this case, IIRC, made a pretty big deal about the type of training the officer had received and argued his response was consistent with it - whether that is justification is something the jury decides, but the lawyer's bringing the matter up is quite ethical).

Remember that, in sensational cases such as this (as well as in lesser ones), clients are not necessarily telling their lawyers the truth. If they say they have an alibi, the lawyer will research it and see if it can be honestly put forward. The lawyer will not, ethically, present evidence that he knows to be false (something Crowns, as well as defense counsel, have done in the past), He will call witnesses that support his client, whether these be character witnesses, witnesses that provide an alibi, or witnesses that call Crown evidence into question that he feels are credible and telling the truth. He can of course be wrong (as can the Crown about its witnesses), but the witnesses he calls, he calls in good faith that they are honest and will bring needed evidence to the table.

In really damning cases, the most the defense counsel can do may be to challenge some evidence, based on valid legal arguments, and raise doubts about the validity of some testimony. He will not try to argue that his client is "innocent." The client enters the court "innocent until proven guilty," although the general public has the opposite approach in most cases: if someone is charged with sensational crimes, the public normally considers them guilty until proven innocent.

Often the defense counsel will try to arrange a plea resolution agreement that he feels is fair to the client (given the facts and evidence he is aware of), and if the Crown agrees, this frequently takes place, but less often in cases like this, where as the saying goes, justice must be seen to be done. The Homolka "deal" is still fresh in many minds.

So in general (and I'm not a lawyer, but have many legal contacts) it is unethical for a defense lawyer, or a Crown either, to knowingly put forward false "facts" or arguments, but it is legitimate to emphasize areas where mitigating circumstances might apply, where circumstantial evidence is capable of more than one interpretation, where details are unknown, where the Crown's evidence may be questionable, and suggest that the totality of the evidence does not add up to proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

In some cases, the defense enters a counter-narrative, but if one does so, he is ethically obliged to consider it may be true. He doesn't have to be certain (nor does the Crown have to be certain of the guilt of the accused), but he can't put forth a wild tale the client told him just because the client told him. He's used to having clients who lie, after all. And criminal defense lawyers rarely ask their clients if they are "guilty." That is a matter for the jury to decide.

This essay may be of use, but with a caveat: it's referring to the US criminal justice system and not all the details are the same. For example, Canada does not have a "double jeopardy" guarantee. If a court acquits someone here, the Crown can appeal and try the person again in hopes of a conviction. That is not allowed in the USA, but a recent case here was of Guy Paul Morin, who was acquitted at his first trial, convicted on the second (massive screw-ups in that trial by multiple parties), and completely exonerated by DNA.

http://www.ethicsscoreboard.com/list/defense.html

In this case, I doubt any of the legal teams believe the accused had nothing to do with the death of Tim Bosma. But there is room for debate on whether they are equally guilty, whether it was "planned and deliberate," whether it was a robbery that went amiss, even whether the shooting was accidental (I don't buy it, but a possible scenario might be imagined). I think it will be hard for DM's lawyer to make a strong counter-argument, but they may be in possession of facts we don't know yet. MS's team may be able to put forward an argument that while their client was a party to the offense, he neither planned nor executed the killing and therefore is guilty of a lesser degree of homicide than his co-accused. If one of the lawyers put such an argument forward, he would (ethically) need to think it is a possible scenario. He does not need to "know" it is true -- how could he know, anyway? - but he cannot put forth an argument that he knows is untrue.
 
I have a general question, not necessarily related to this case: What are the ethics of defending an accused criminal when the lawyer knows their client is guilty? I know the accused has a right to a fair trial, and I acknowledge that defense lawyers play a critical role in upholding that right. But is it ethical (or even legal, for that matter) for a defense lawyer to defend their client based on a story that they know is untrue?

I found this article online and it addresses your first question, IMO.

http://www.lsuc.on.ca/media/sith_colloquium_asimow_michael.pdf

All MOO.
 
They can't use your testimony in court against you.

Somebody posted and spoke to this in one of the posts. basically there are circumstances where they can. I cannot tell you why this is now but it made sense when I read it. If you go through the posts you will see it. They attached legal statutes with it to support what they were saying.
 
Somebody posted and spoke to this in one of the posts. basically there are circumstances where they can. I cannot tell you why this is now but it made sense when I read it. If you go through the posts you will see it. They attached legal statutes with it to support what they were saying.

ok, unless you perjure yourself.
 
Just days before she testifies MM writes a *new* statement which she gets to refer to in court. Isn't that odd? What happens to the original one then?
The defense must have agreed to the new evidence in an argument... SO..... Can the defense team still refer to the first one during cross? anyone know?

The original statement remains in the court file, and the defense team can cross only on the new statement. However, the fact that the statement has been changed becomes part of the record, together with all the relevant legal arguments. Depending on what the change is, how critical it is to the case, the defence team can question a witness as to his/her reliability in remembering facts, her credibility, etc. But in doing so, one has to consider how the witness is going to answer, and is it going to prove helpful to the defence or not.
 
Somebody posted and spoke to this in one of the posts. basically there are circumstances where they can. I cannot tell you why this is now but it made sense when I read it. If you go through the posts you will see it. They attached legal statutes with it to support what they were saying.

This was probably the exception not the rule. I'm sure if she's testifying she was offered protection of some sort.
 
Just days before she testifies MM writes a *new* statement which she gets to refer to in court. Isn't that odd? What happens to the original one then?
The defense must have agreed to the new evidence in an argument... SO..... Can the defense team still refer to the first one during cross? anyone know?

The original statement remains in the court file, and the defense team can cross only on the new statement. However, the fact that the statement has been changed becomes part of the record, together with all the relevant legal arguments. Depending on what the change is, how critical it is to the case, the defence team can question a witness as to his/her reliability in remembering facts, her credibility, etc. But in doing so, one has to consider how the witness is going to answer, and is it going to prove helpful to the defence or not.
 
Appreciate your passion. Victim's families go through this all the time--many walk through appeal after appeal. One family in Winnipeg--parents of Candace Derkson who was killed in '84 have to go through it yet again next year 2017 as a new trial has been set. For the reasons you mention, Mrs. Derkson sought to set up a number of initiatives for victim families.

The LE needed quite a bit of this time for collecting info, analyzing it, verifying it, and lawyers to prepare their cases. We want them to be thorough. And then there is getting on the schedule with the other court cases, the long jury selection process, etc. At least the perps have been jailed. But even then, they were innocent until proven guilty. As you see from the poll taken, up until recent events there have been people thinking one or the other is not guilty. IMO

Hopefully, those who assisted the killers in their illegal missions have had time to grow up and see the problem with such involvement. I hope they see it is not fun and games but ILLEGAL and immoral. Hopefully, they will use their experience for good in the future.

Dellen is representing himself now...so that should take up lots of time......not sure what happened to his first lawyer.
 
defending these monsters is wrong due to the degree of evidence they have against them. The term "vigorously defending" their clients, is sickening when it is clear they are sooooo guilty. The Bosma family has suffered enough and need to heal and slowly close this horrible chapter in their lives. Millard laughing and smirking in court is extremely rude. You would think his lawyers would tell him to at least act solemn and contrite. Jmo

Somebody mentioned on this post that Dellen is defending himself and complaining he has not been given enough access to legal things he needs. Is this true? If this is the case....what has happened to the legal process. Someone else has referred to this quite accurately saying DM doing his own defense is like what Bundy did. This will drag things on quite a bit. Which is exactly what he wants. Any excuse to be out of the cell.
 
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