Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #11

[studyer]

If you have sources, then why don't you cite them? As a rule, lawyers will not say that any one specific client is a Legal Aid case. The fact that they do some Legal Aid work and talk about it can't be used to prove that every one of their clients is a Legal Aid case.

FWIW, I have never before heard the claim that Bernardo was a Legal Aid case. And if him, why not Homolka?

Sorry but until I see an actual citation, I'm not buying it.

It could be that because of the case against his lawyer (Murray), the arrangement became public knowledge; the decision discusses Murray being paid by legal aid for representing Bernardo and that he purposely didn't bill legal aid for the copying of the video tapes so that prosecutors wouldn't get wind of them. (source: R. v Murray, 2000)

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2000/2000canlii22378/2000canlii22378.html

 

[CJPRINCESS]

What they did was still illegal. I know plenty of people who don't and haven't done that kind of stuff. It isn't normal. It is disrespectful to property owners and it is illegal. I have had a $200 estate sign and solar lights stolen, maybe by them for kicks and I'm out the money while someone else did it for kicks or to sell the metal. In Canada you're an adult at 18, so they are not/were not kids. IMO

Well, well, do you think most people are just gonna run around and tell if they did? I highly doubt it. I know plenty of people that have and wouldn't admit it today if you asked them. I also know of someone who had a ton of money and stole whatever they could. It was for the thrill and not because they needed it. Most people won't admit that they have stole things because they didn't get caught. I find the ones that have gotten caught are the ones that admit it.

 

[Inspector_North]

Based on all we know about DM and his missions, do we know any other reason besides the time required to use the Eliminator, that a mission would be an 'all nighter"? From the previous missions we heard about, they started early in the morning, and generally completed once the target was back in the hanger.

Both are guilty of planning and going through with the 'all nighter' mission. I am just wondering if there is any other possible reason why a theft of an auto around 9:30 p.m. would need to be planned as an 'all nighter'?

MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

It could be that because of the case against his lawyer (Murray), the arrangement became public knowledge; the decision discusses Murray being paid by legal aid for representing Bernardo and that he purposely didn't bill legal aid for the copying of the video tapes so that prosecutors wouldn't get wind of them. (source: R. v Murray, 2000)

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2000/2000canlii22378/2000canlii22378.html

Good find. In addition:

From Deadly Innocence by Cairns and Burnside:
-Homolka intends to contact legal aid for assistance in her divorce
-Bernardo contacts lawyer Barry Fox re assault on Homolka and tells him he has no money and Fox would have to agree to be paid by legal aid
-John Rosen paid by Legal Aid

Invisible Darkness by Williams:
-Homolka seeks legal aid for her divorce and gets legal aid certificate, lawyer is Virginia Workman
-Murray team paid by legal aid
-Rosen accepts case contingent on legal aid approval of transfer, legal aid approves
-George Walker paid by legal aid for representing Homolka, references legal aid records and specifics of billings for meetings with various players in the case

I have kindle versions of the major books on the case and did a search for the term 'legal aid' in each. Multiple references described above tell a consistent story of a perceived need by the defendants and successful applications for at least four legal teams (Workman, Murray, Walker and Rosen).

 

[hellkat2]

One thing we do know, is that CN was trying to contact DM as late as 9:12 p.m. on the 10th. If it was not on the news, and unless CN learned within minutes of her last call to DM, I doubt she tipped off MS.

I also don't believe that MB would call MS. I can't even figure what phone she would call to reach MS. Doubt she even knew MM to have or look up the phone number.


Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 3m3 minutes ago
8:04 p.m. from Kinks: Hellooooo? 9:10 p.m. from Kinks: Call me. 9:12 p.m. a call from Kinks...by then, Millard was under arrest. #Bosma

and this about MS calling AM........

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 11s11 seconds ago
May 10, 9:20 p.m. 44 second call from Smich. Starts a series of calls

Also. If it was only the new updated description of the suspects on the news that MM heard, it doesn't explain the call at 9:20 p.m. to AM saying they got Dell. MS had to know he was arrested, and not just freaking out about the description.

MOO

I don't have any difficulty believing that MB would call MS. A mother can track her son down usually in record time. How? Text CN back and get the number. Or get her to get it and text you back.

 

[Inspector_North]

I don't have any difficulty believing that MB would call MS. A mother can track her son down usually in record time. How? Text CN back and get the number. Or get her to get it and text you back.

The dynamics of DM's friends makes me wonder about that. MM claims to know CN, but says they were not friends. I believe MM said they were at her sisters when they saw the news of DM's arrest. There should be evidence that either MB, CN or whomever contacted MS, must have done so through a call or text to MM. MS did not have a phone by that time. He grabbed MM's phone to contact AM.

It could have been a text to MS if he was still using his IPad to communicate. What ever way you look at it, there should be a digital trail of the contact, unless it was in person.

MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

Based on all we know about DM and his missions, do we know any other reason besides the time required to use the Eliminator, that a mission would be an 'all nighter"? From the previous missions we heard about, they started early in the morning, and generally completed once the target was back in the hanger.

Both are guilty of planning and going through with the 'all nighter' mission. I am just wondering if there is any other possible reason why a theft of an auto around 9:30 p.m. would need to be planned as an 'all nighter'?

MOO

Before all the evidence of the plan to use the incinerator began to mount, they might have been able to claim several hours planned for cleaning and prepping the truck for painting and a VIN switch and getting it hidden in the trailer before anybody showed up for work on the 7th. But I think we're past the point of credibility on something like that.

 

[Inspector_North]

Before all the evidence of the plan to use the incinerator began to mount, they might have been able to claim several hours planned for cleaning and prepping the truck for painting and a VIN switch and getting it hidden in the trailer before anybody showed up for work on the 7th. But I think we're past the point of credibility on something like that.

Agree!. DM didn't include having those items as part of his mission preparation. Windshield remover and power washer were after thoughts as evidence has shown us.

MOO

 

[hellkat2]

Well, well, do you think most people are just gonna run around and tell if they did? I highly doubt it. I know plenty of people that have and wouldn't admit it today if you asked them. I also know of someone who had a ton of money and stole whatever they could. It was for the thrill and not because they needed it. Most people won't admit that they have stole things because they didn't get caught. I find the ones that have gotten caught are the ones that admit it.

People who have a lot of money and steal .....People who have a ton of money and steal kind of gives you a clue as to how they made their money and to their character. I would not do business with them, let's just say that. The saying you never get caught the first time is one that I feel has plenty of truth to it.

 

[hellkat2]

The dynamics of DM's friends makes me wonder about that. MM claims to know CN, but says they were not friends. I believe MM said they were at her sisters when they saw the news of DM's arrest. There should be evidence that either MB, CN or whomever contacted MS, must have done so through a call or text to MM. MS did not have a phone by that time. He grabbed MM's phone to contact AM.

It could have been a text to MS if he was still using his IPad to communicate. What ever way you look at it, there should be a digital trail of the contact, unless it was in person.

MOO

I don't know why this makes a difference. I am not getting where all this is going. There has been mention of walkie talkies and look outs. And maybe MM wasn't where she said she was.

 

[hellkat2]

Before all the evidence of the plan to use the incinerator began to mount, they might have been able to claim several hours planned for cleaning and prepping the truck for painting and a VIN switch and getting it hidden in the trailer before anybody showed up for work on the 7th. But I think we're past the point of credibility on something like that.

They planned on driving the stolen truck straight to the Windsor or Niagara Falls border and had someone that was taking it to Mexico? I would think the idea is that they steal it and quickly move it. Like in the movies that they watched that probably told them everything the need to know about stealing cars. Gone in 60 seconds etc.

 

[ABro]

It could be that because of the case against his lawyer (Murray), the arrangement became public knowledge; the decision discusses Murray being paid by legal aid for representing Bernardo and that he purposely didn't bill legal aid for the copying of the video tapes so that prosecutors wouldn't get wind of them. (source: R. v Murray, 2000)

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2000/2000canlii22378/2000canlii22378.html

Well that seems about as definitive as you can get. Thanks for that. I always thought Rosen had been paid by Bernardo's family for some reason.

And I believe you're likely right about this information becoming public public as a result of the Murray court case.

 

[hellkat2]

The dynamics of DM's friends makes me wonder about that. MM claims to know CN, but says they were not friends. I believe MM said they were at her sisters when they saw the news of DM's arrest. There should be evidence that either MB, CN or whomever contacted MS, must have done so through a call or text to MM. MS did not have a phone by that time. He grabbed MM's phone to contact AM.

It could have been a text to MS if he was still using his IPad to communicate. What ever way you look at it, there should be a digital trail of the contact, unless it was in person.

MOO

There is mention somewhere in all of these posts where MM had phone conversations with CN. They may not be friends but it would not be a leap to think they had each other's phone numbers given that their boyfriends were friends. The dynamics no matter how complicated.....a mother would break through all of that in short time. No doubt in my mind.

 

[hellkat2]

Based on all we know about DM and his missions, do we know any other reason besides the time required to use the Eliminator, that a mission would be an 'all nighter"? From the previous missions we heard about, they started early in the morning, and generally completed once the target was back in the hanger.

Both are guilty of planning and going through with the 'all nighter' mission. I am just wondering if there is any other possible reason why a theft of an auto around 9:30 p.m. would need to be planned as an 'all nighter'?

MOO

Because they did not plan on doing a chop shop in the hangar until things went wrong....I think it more likely that they were planning on driving it across the border for pick up by someone else who would drive it to Mexico. Or who knows....a container that was going to be shipped abroad ....Any deep water port....Toronto....Niagara Falls......Welland...... (Think the movie Gone in 60 seconds)......Everything Dellen needed to watch in order to complete his missions.

 

[hellkat2]

Agree!. DM didn't include having those items as part of his mission preparation. Windshield remover and power washer were after thoughts as evidence has shown us.

MOO

This is something that tells me they did not plan on the events that unfolded that night.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Because they did not plan on doing a chop shop in the hangar until things went wrong....I think it more likely that they were planning on driving it across the border for pick up by someone else who would drive it to Mexico. Or who knows....a container that was going to be shipped abroad ....Any deep water port....Toronto....Niagara Falls......Welland...... (Think the movie Gone in 60 seconds)......Everything Dellen needed to watch in order to complete his missions.

Er, no. It's been made pretty clear Dellen wanted this specific diesel Dodge Ram *for himself*, hence the arrangements to try to swap VINs and paint it the color of the one he already had. He wanted to use it to haul his racing jeep. He even texted LW2 about his plans to acquire a diesel truck. No one was getting this truck except him. He'd already put its key on his own key ring.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Because they did not plan on doing a chop shop in the hangar until things went wrong....I think it more likely that they were planning on driving it across the border for pick up by someone else who would drive it to Mexico. Or who knows....a container that was going to be shipped abroad ....Any deep water port....Toronto....Niagara Falls......Welland...... (Think the movie Gone in 60 seconds)......Everything Dellen needed to watch in order to complete his missions.

Huh? DM wanted the diesel truck to pull his Jeep to the Baja race.

 

[SnooperDuper]

This is something that tells me they did not plan on the events that unfolded that night.

Huh? They celebrated because the mission was a total success.

 

[hellkat2]

You've said this before about him paying lawyers, but he's representing himself in the murder of Laura Babcock, and the family resources are obviously finite.

i know....lawyers, representing himself, either way he has a mission now. he has no interest in closure. he gets outings and stuff if he stays in the legal process.

 

[hellkat2]

Er, no. It's been made pretty clear Dellen wanted this specific diesel Dodge Ram *for himself*, hence the arrangements to try to swap VINs and paint it the color of the one he already had. He wanted to use it to haul his racing jeep. He even texted LW2 about his plans to acquire a diesel truck. No one was getting this truck except him. He'd already put its key on his own key ring.

Then the one they be driving to hypothetical border would be DM's old truck. Or driving it to the container unit waiting at the shipping dock. He didn't need two. Especially the hot one. He needed some money. Needed to make a quota of $$$$$ to meet his financial obligations.