Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #14

[palisadesk]

My question was, though I highly respect the work of LE and the great thorough job they've done, I'm still wondering how they came to the conclusion so quickly about there not being a 3rd person? Every time we bring it up we're told there is no evidence so don't even talk about it.

It would only be much later, and that only if those involved in the investigation write their memoirs or whatever, that we will find out why some possibilities were excluded.After all, the possibilities that the Crown and police have excluded do not figure in the evidence presented at all. Your query, could the accused have told them there was no third party, is certainly valid -- maybe they did, but we aren't likely to find out.

The saying goes, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," i.e. the fact that there's no evidence for a third party doesn't mean there could not have been one. But if LE have ruled it out, they probably have very good reasons.

Consider all the evidence they had:

- phone data of the key players. If there were a third person, there would likely have been phone and text records between them. No such evidence has been forthcoming.
- forensic evidence. Fingerprints, DNA. If evidence of a third party (such as CN -- her DNA was on one of those gloves IIRC) was found in the vehicles and items related to the crime, the "owners" of the prints/DNA would have been checked out for their possible involvement. Presumably CN had an alibi for the night of May 6, besides her phone data. So she was excluded, but we don't necessarily know all the details why. If there were prints or DNA of other parties, that would have been investigated and those people eliminated.

I'm sure in the early days of the investigation, a lot of theories and hypotheses were bandied about, but gradually eliminated as the data came in. We just don't hear much of that process. We do if a major player writes a memoir (a recent example is OPP profiler Kate Lines' Crime Seen, where she discusses some of her more famous cases and shares some behind-the-scenes details).

If there was no 3rd why did the lawyers go into all the arguments about if TB was shot from the front seat or back?

They may not have known whether evidence introduced (as it was by MS) would establish whether both accused were in the truck when the shot was fired. If the jury believed that to be the case, each defense lawyer would be trying to get the suggestion on the record that the other guy's client fired the shot. I still think DM's lawyer will come back to the Plaxton evidence that suggests the RAM drove around for about 10 minutes before going back to the Yukon. That is not consistent with MS's story but would possibly benefit DM.

The entire "my friend is on the side of the road lost" is dumb to me. The entire "follow us" is dumb. Test driving you don't have someone follow you. IMO, If friends drop you off and go fetch coffee, they wouldn't plan to return until you were done.

The whole thing is dumb, to me. But as for the coffee, MS said DM's line was that their "friend" couldn't find the Tim Horton's, so he hadn't actually gone to get a coffee, so they were going to "rescue" him by getting him to follow. Pretty lame story, I agree, but if TB was as anxious to sell that truck as we are led to believe, it might have passed.

Saying no 3rd driver is giving MS a defense.

It's not the absence of a 3rd driver, it's the evidence (so far, only MS's evidence) that the three guys were not in the truck together except for the first for hundred metres, until MS hopped out and took the Yukon. Look for Pillay to challenge that scenario.

 

[Mikala]

Hallelujah. Thank you.

During the lawyers' arguments surrounding the location of the bullet casing, I originally thought the same thing....both DM and MS were in the vehicle when the shooting occured. Having said that, the Crown does not need to prove who shot Mr. Bosma. So for the Crown, it doesn't really matter if the shot came from the front seat or from the back seat. For DM's lawyer, it would matter. He would want to show that his client was driving and the shot was fired from the rear, meaning MS did it. Now if MS was NOT in the vehicle as he has testified, and his lawyer knew this all along, then his lawyer would want to show that the shot could only have come from the driver, and not from the rear. Hope that makes sense, but I don't think it's correct to assume both DM and MS were in the vehicle together simply because the lawyers were arguing about the location of the bullet casing.

 

[Alethea Dice]

RSBM & RBBM

Thinking back to the testimony of MH and AM...

Didn't MH say he didn't know what to do with the toolbox and that he met with AM (who was his good friend at the time) to discuss in a park near his house? And wasn't it AM that told MH they should give both the backpack and the toolbox to MS? And so they went in MH's parents car to Oakville and did the whole drop off thing behind the wrong Shoppers to get the stuff to MS.

Suppose AM was thinking about not wanting to get caught with any drugs. I believe he said it was MS's idea to get the pot out of the house at Maplegate because the cops were coming after DM's arrest. AM had stashed the backpack in his car overnight after speaking with MS (though there is some confusion surrounding this whole conversation and how they came to know about the arrest). Did AM assume the toolbox - which was known to be used to hold drugs at DM's parties - also had drugs in it? Did he actually know there was a gun inside? (Didn't DM claim in the letters that he "protected" AM by not telling him things?). Did AM tell MH to give it to MS, because MS had asked for the drugs from Maplegate, and he sure didn't want to get caught holding drugs, and maybe didn't want MH to get caught holding drugs either?

MH and AM appear to have their friendship torn apart as "lies were told". Did AM maybe tell MH that DM told him he wanted the toolbox to go to MS (a lie perhaps)? And if we could hear what DM actually said to MH when he dropped off the toolbox, maybe MH wasn't so sure that was what DM wanted, but he believed AM. MH might have felt that he betrayed DM when he found out about the gun in the toolbox and that he had taken part in putting it in the hands of MS? And if that had not happened, MS would possibly not have believed DM was trying to frame him.

All MOO.

MH met with AM because he woke up to a series of texts from him telling him that DM had been arrested and asked him to meet him at the park. They argued about whether to give the toolbox to Mark, but he ended up taking it to get it "off their hands". AM told him they both "were given something" by DM and that DM would have wanted it to go to MS. The only way for AM to have known that MH was given something would be if MS told him that. The text message that MS sent to AM said to bring him the bag of weed and the other thing, meaning the toolbox.

The friend that MH ended up talking to was LP, and it was LP who went to police.

 

[brightii]

MH met with AM because he woke up to a series of texts from him telling him that DM had been arrested and asked him to meet him at the park. They argued about whether to give the toolbox to Mark, but he ended up taking it to get it "off their hands". AM told him they both "were given something" by DM and that DM would have wanted it to go to MS. The only way for AM to have known that MH was given something would be if MS told him that. The text message that MS sent to AM said to bring him the bag of weed and the other thing, meaning the toolbox.

The friend that MH ended up talking to was LP, and it was LP who went to police.

Respectfully, MS was not the only way AM could have known about the toolbox, IMO as he and CN were also in contact and she was present at MH's driveway when DM dropped the toolbox off to MH. CN knew about DM's arrest before others as well.

All MOO.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Well I could have said gives MS his storyline.

Knowing how much DM was concerned for Pedo, you'd think he wouldn't leave him in the car alone in the dark. I'd think someone would be there with Pedo.i.e. 3rd party, or even 4th. IMO

And not only would TB be likely to see that no one else was in the vehicle, but if Pedo was alone, he would be barking a welcome when they came back, further attracting TB's attention. MS's story doesn't make sense to me. JMO

ETA: Personally, I would feel weird about leaving my beloved dog alone in a vehicle, in the dark, without locking the doors, even on a lonely country road/field.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I think we are missing some big parts in MS'S version.

MS testified to TB being wrapped in a sheet (still think he ment a tarp) when he got back over to DM. That DM already had TB out of the truck and on the ground on his own.
SO how the heck did so much blood get in the box of TB'S truck? The seats weren't transported in the box. MS testified to everything being put into the Red Ram then to farm to burn...how could there be NO blood in the box of the red Ram? This could only mean they put TB in the back box when they pulled into the parking lot. IMO, DM is sick, but I don't think even he could drive back to the farm with TB'S body in the passenger seat.

MS testified that DM put TB in the incinerator at the farm and then went to the hanger. So they wouldn't have put TB in the truck box then either.

The part I do not believe of MS'S testimony is, that he didn't help move and dispose of TB'S body.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I've always believed it was CN who told AM about the toolbox after DM's arrest on the evening of the 10th. We also now know that MB and CN had dropped by Maplegate to get cash etc., and that's where AM was also living, in the late hours of May 10th or the wee hours of May 11th, so maybe the toolbox and what to do with was discussed at that time?

All MOO.

That's possible. All I know is that AM testified that it was MS who told him that DM was arrested, and that it was MS who asked him to meet up with MH and to bring whatever he had and whatever MH had to him the next day.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

That's possible. All I know is that AM testified that it was MS who told him that DM was arrested, and that it was MS who asked him to meet up with MH and to bring whatever he had and whatever MH had to him the next day.

They also made how many police statements each? I think they started by defending DM and helping to pin it all on MS, that they forgot what the truth really was. I think it was CN.
MOO

 

[Arnie M]

Accordingly to the testimony for this evidence, the cameras audio seemed to be compromised by fans or something.

There was a loud air conditioning unit running on the outside of the building that for all practical purposes sounded like annoying static on a radio. It had no value to the investigation

 

[ABro]

I've always believed it was CN who told AM about the toolbox after DM's arrest on the evening of the 10th. We also now know that MB and CN had dropped by Maplegate to get cash etc., and that's where AM was also living, in the late hours of May 10th or the wee hours of May 11th, so maybe the toolbox and what to do with was discussed at that time?

All MOO.

Andrew Michalski was a very credible witness to everyone I've talked to who actually who saw him in court. Even though there has been nothing to suggest he was less than truthful, this doesn't appear to have come across on social media, where he is routinely accused of lying on the stand for no reason.

AM made it clear Mark Smich told him to get the box. He had no reason to lie or omit the fact that CN told him. It was clear from both his and CN's testimony there was no love lost between the two of them.

Yes, AM lied at the beginning of his police statement, but that is pretty common. Unlike MH, however, it did not take him four separate statements to get to the truth.

That said, I also think MH was truthful on the stand. He just didn't appear to own up to his bad behaviour in the same way that AM did.

The reason Dungey didn't go to town on AM is because he didn't have damning facts like he did with MH and SS.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

I think we are missing some big parts in MS'S version.

MS testified to TB being wrapped in a sheet (still think he ment a tarp) when he got back over to DM. That DM already had TB out of the truck and on the ground on his own.
SO how the heck did so much blood get in the box of TB'S truck? The seats weren't transported in the box. MS testified to everything being put into the Red Ram then to farm to burn...how could there be NO blood in the box of the red Ram? This could only mean they put TB in the back box when they pulled into the parking lot. IMO, DM is sick, but I don't think even he could drive back to the farm with TB'S body in the passenger seat.

MS testified that DM put TB in the incinerator at the farm and then went to the hanger. So they wouldn't have put TB in the truck box then either.

The part I do not believe of MS'S testimony is, that he didn't help move and dispose of TB'S body.

Would you be a giant risk to move the body at the bobcat place. Its not a deserted country road.

 

[DMB]

It's my understanding that AM contacted MH and asked to meet him in a park on the 11th and to bring the toolbox with him as AM told MH that DM would want MS to have it. DM had told MH to hold it for him. MS and AM were talking by phone and by text that week after TB's murder and on the night of DM's arrest and again on the 11th when the backpack with weed and the toolbox were dropped off for MS to retrieve in Oakville. Unfortunately we don't know the details of what was really said between AM and MS during the phone calls, IMO. I don't know why AM got involved in the situation with the toolbox and at whose behest. They all tell varying stories about that toolbox and I don't know what to believe.



I do think it's possible that there were two guns and that could be why MS doesn't want to say what happened to them. I think one of these guns was used on TB and maybe the other one was the murder weapon that was used on LB? While MS may not have ever bought a gun, and therefore technically never owned a gun, it would make sense that DM may have given MS the older gun, if not to keep, to use.

All MOO.

Isn't MWJ in prison for selling DM the gun that was used on WM???? That's two guns

 

[Alethea Dice]

Respectfully, MS was not the only way AM could have known about the toolbox, IMO as he and CN were also in contact and she was present at MH's driveway when DM dropped the toolbox off to MH. CN knew about DM's arrest before others as well.

All MOO.

Yes, I included her in my first post as the only other person who knew. If it was CN who told AM, do you think she also told MS that they had dropped a toolbox off? Just wondering because, according to the text message, MS did ask for it. I suppose it could have been AM himself who told MS about the box and he then said he wanted it too. From the rest of the conversations testified to, it's just my opinion that it's more likely that MS heard about the toolbox drop off from either DM or CN. Either way, for whatever reason, MS wanted it and asked for it. JMO

 

[Claroon]

That's possible. All I know is that AM testified that it was MS who told him that DM was arrested, and that it was MS who asked him to meet up with MH and to bring whatever he had and whatever MH had to him the next day.

They really covered their bunny tracks well in the testimonies. I was just comparing the interaction exchange on the spread sheet. Although CN claims she didn't know of DM's arrest until she met MB after 11 pm, she probably heard it from MS & AM. And suddenly AM contacts MH. AM also promptly put the backpack in his car.

So did DM tell his mother about the need to move this toolbox? (More evidence to play with/)
Did MS know about it?
If MH hadn't been involved until now, that was really slimy to bring it to his house. Why didn't DM just hide it? Convoluted. IMO

 

[Arnie M]

I know but what if the 100 pound tank was empty since they said it had been used before? Couldn't they refill it with propane from a small tank?

It is bizarre how folks keep bringing up DM needing to fill the propane tank as though it had a tank like a home Barbecue. A home BBQ has a small 1 gallon or 2 gallon tank , the animal incinerator has an industrial tank that likely holds 100 gallons and would last for many uses before needing to be refilled. All a person has to do is look at the picture of the incinerator to see the large white tank is absolutely not comparable to those tiny home tanks.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Would you be a giant risk to move the body at the bobcat place. Its not a deserted country road.

Yes it would be! but so is walking up a driveway (being seen by 2 witnesses) then stealing a truck and murdering the owner.

 

[ABro]

It is bizarre how folks keep bringing up DM needing to fill the propane tank as though it had a tank like a home Barbecue. A home BBQ has a small 1 gallon or 2 gallon tank , the animal incinerator has an industrial tank that likely holds 100 gallons and would last for many uses before needing to be refilled. All a person has to do is look at the picture of the incinerator to see the large white tank is absolutely not comparable to those tiny home tanks.

I think some people just can't accept the fact that they are likely never going to get the whole truth about this case (and others) so they make up stuff to help fill in the gaps.

POlice, criminal lawyers, journalists etc. know from experience and accept that there are some things are just not going to be known and no amount of looking or questioning or coming up with unsubstantiated theories is going to provide answers.

I think crime boards are skewed towards people seeking "truth" and those who they believe are truth tellers while the reality is that the truth in cases like this doesn't usually doesn't come from any one person but from everyone's little pieces and contributions. Some things are just unknowable.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

It seems that his former girlfriend MM, and even perhaps more importantly his mother and sisters do not believe, or support him now either. None of them have ever come to court to offer support by their presence, as far as I have been able to determine. In fact, I don't think either MS, or DM have had anyone come and sit in court, who was there as friend or family.

There was a websleuth member some time ago, who attended court, in the early days, and mentioned that a middle aged blonde woman was seated in the viewing area, who smiled at DM when she came in. He seemed to recognize her, and smiled back. Later during a break the webleuth member tried to engage her in conversation, but she was very vague, and did not reveal who she was. It is possible she was the woman who wrote to him while he was in prison. I think her name, or pen name was something like "Dee". The bottom line, looks to me like neither of these guys has anyone who was close to them before the arrests, believing or supporting them now, unless MB is staying in the background, still trying to believe in her only child, and doing what she can to help him. IMO

IIRC, Susan Clairmont tweeted that MS's Mom has come to court from time to time. Anyone else remember this?

Will try to find her tweet and post it back here.

MOO

 

[Claroon]

They also made how many police statements each? I think they started by defending DM and helping to pin it all on MS, that they forgot what the truth really was. I think it was CN.
MOO

I think DM really had them fooled. They didn't think he could be so ruthless. That's why they tried to get rid of evidence and frame MS. IMO

 

[Mscree]

IIRC, Susan Clairmont tweeted that MS's Mom has come to court from time to time. Anyone else remember this?

Will try to find her tweet and post it back here
MOO

I remember I know it was the day he had the new yellow dress shirt if it helps