Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #14

[palisadesk]

. I think DM thought he would make more money illegally than legally.

My conclusion is that DM had absolutely no clue whatever about how to make money, legally or otherwise. He was the Grand Master of spending money!

 

[Alethea Dice]

In DM's case, since he obviously knew he had a loaded gun on his person on this "mission," it would be very difficult to maintain that he didn't know there was potential to cause the death of a person during the commission of his "unlawful object." However, it's conceivable that a juror or other observer of the case could conclude that MS did not foresee any such eventuality, did not have any knowledge of a planned homicide or the possession of a gun on the occasion by DM.

The judge will lay out all the possibilities for the jury in his charge; these would include murder 1, murder 2 and manslaughter, as well as acquittal; there are probably others. It would not surprise me if the jury ends up divided on the verdict for MS and compromises with second degree. I don't foresee anything less but it's possible of course.

<rsbm>

I may be standing in a corner alone, but I am far from convinced which one had the loaded gun on this mission, or which one did the shooting. MS's testimony did nothing to help answer that question for me. Too many holes and too many lies. Who has testified in this trial who has more reason to lie? The witnesses or MS? MS saw an opportunity and took it and decided to get on the stand. It's his life that he's gambling for. In my view, he hurt himself more than he helped and we haven't even gotten to the cross yet. Maybe I'm crazy, guess we'll soon find out.

But yes, I don't really see anything less than 2nd degree for either one no matter which way it goes.

JMO

 

[Claroon]

I was typing this and I don't know if I didn't finish or if a mod took it off.

My question was, though I highly respect the work of LE and the great thorough job they've done, I'm still wondering how they came to the conclusion so quickly about there not being a 3rd person? Every time we bring it up we're told there is no evidence so don't even talk about it. But I'm still wondering, did DM tell them there was no 3rd after his arrest? If there was no 3rd why did the lawyers go into all the arguments about if TB was shot from the front seat or back?

The entire "my friend is on the side of the road lost" is dumb to me. The entire "follow us" is dumb. Test driving you don't have someone follow you. IMO, If friends drop you off and go fetch coffee, they wouldn't plan to return until you were done.

Why this bothers me is if there was a 3rd driver, and MS and DM were both in the truck, the score is even. Saying no 3rd driver is giving MS a defense. IIMO

 

[brightii]

I think MS knew what was in the box. How do you think he knew who to get it from? As far as I can tell, the only people who knew DM had dropped the box off with MH was himself and CN. So how did MS know to ask Andrew to get it from MH and bring it to him with the bag of weed? Maybe when DM visited him on the 10th before his arrest, MS was freaking about where the gun was and DM told him he had dropped it off and it would be safe with MH. Or I suppose he could have just told him that, if anything happened, MS could get his oxy's back from MH. But then, I don't believe MS's story anyway, and I don't believe he had a bum shoulder either. That was just his excuse to keep getting those orange guys he liked so much.

I don't know how many guns were in the toolbox (my guess would be one), but I do believe that MS did own a gun. Why would he tell his best friend that he did? Or why would his best friend lie about that? Why would he need some practice ammo if he didn't have a gun?


Those messages are 2 months after DM's meeting with MWJ to buy the Walther. And yet, another 5 months later, in September 2012, there are more messages with MWJ.



http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...cific-model-truck-tim-bosma-was-selling-crown

Did MS get the hand-me-down?

All JMO

It's my understanding that AM contacted MH and asked to meet him in a park on the 11th and to bring the toolbox with him as AM told MH that DM would want MS to have it. DM had told MH to hold it for him. MS and AM were talking by phone and by text that week after TB's murder and on the night of DM's arrest and again on the 11th when the backpack with weed and the toolbox were dropped off for MS to retrieve in Oakville. Unfortunately we don't know the details of what was really said between AM and MS during the phone calls, IMO. I don't know why AM got involved in the situation with the toolbox and at whose behest. They all tell varying stories about that toolbox and I don't know what to believe.

I do think it's possible that there were two guns and that could be why MS doesn't want to say what happened to them. I think one of these guns was used on TB and maybe the other one was the murder weapon that was used on LB? While MS may not have ever bought a gun, and therefore technically never owned a gun, it would make sense that DM may have given MS the older gun, if not to keep, to use.

All MOO.

 

[Tilly23]

I think MS knew what was in the box. How do you think he knew who to get it from? As far as I can tell, the only people who knew DM had dropped the box off with MH was himself and CN. So how did MS know to ask Andrew to get it from MH and bring it to him with the bag of weed? Maybe when DM visited him on the 10th before his arrest, MS was freaking about where the gun was and DM told him he had dropped it off and it would be safe with MH. Or I suppose he could have just told him that, if anything happened, MS could get his oxy's back from MH. <snip>

RSBM & RBBM

Thinking back to the testimony of MH and AM...

Didn't MH say he didn't know what to do with the toolbox and that he met with AM (who was his good friend at the time) to discuss in a park near his house? And wasn't it AM that told MH they should give both the backpack and the toolbox to MS? And so they went in MH's parents car to Oakville and did the whole drop off thing behind the wrong Shoppers to get the stuff to MS.

Suppose AM was thinking about not wanting to get caught with any drugs. I believe he said it was MS's idea to get the pot out of the house at Maplegate because the cops were coming after DM's arrest. AM had stashed the backpack in his car overnight after speaking with MS (though there is some confusion surrounding this whole conversation and how they came to know about the arrest). Did AM assume the toolbox - which was known to be used to hold drugs at DM's parties - also had drugs in it? Did he actually know there was a gun inside? (Didn't DM claim in the letters that he "protected" AM by not telling him things?). Did AM tell MH to give it to MS, because MS had asked for the drugs from Maplegate, and he sure didn't want to get caught holding drugs, and maybe didn't want MH to get caught holding drugs either?

MH and AM appear to have their friendship torn apart as "lies were told". Did AM maybe tell MH that DM told him he wanted the toolbox to go to MS (a lie perhaps)? And if we could hear what DM actually said to MH when he dropped off the toolbox, maybe MH wasn't so sure that was what DM wanted, but he believed AM. MH might have felt that he betrayed DM when he found out about the gun in the toolbox and that he had taken part in putting it in the hands of MS? And if that had not happened, MS would possibly not have believed DM was trying to frame him.

All MOO.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

2. Perhaps he was getting propane or whatever the incinerator runs on? Again, you'd think he would have done ahead of time.

Rsbm

unless you use bolt cutters to break into a propane cage.

The incinerator would not run on the bbq tanks. That had already been put to rest in court.

ETA: Sorry Claroon, I quoted wrong post.

 

[hellkat2]

My conclusion is that DM had absolutely no clue whatever about how to make money, legally or otherwise. He was the Grand Master of spending money!

Agreed. He had the rich kid disease...affluenza.

 

[hellkat2]

i was typing this and i don't know if i didn't finish or if a mod took it off.

My question was, though i highly respect the work of le and the great thorough job they've done, i'm still wondering how they came to the conclusion so quickly about there not being a 3rd person? Every time we bring it up we're told there is no evidence so don't even talk about it. But i'm still wondering, did dm tell them there was no 3rd after his arrest? If there was no 3rd why did the lawyers go into all the arguments about if tb was shot from the front seat or back?

The entire "my friend is on the side of the road lost" is dumb to me. The entire "follow us" is dumb. Test driving you don't have someone follow you. Imo, if friends drop you off and go fetch coffee, they wouldn't plan to return until you were done.

Why this bothers me is if there was a 3rd driver, and ms and dm were both in the truck, the score is even. Saying no 3rd driver is giving ms a defense. Iimo

yes it is.

 

[etrain]

Perhaps ask:

1. why the heck they hid the Yukon where they did? If they were going back they could have just as easily changed cars to protect their identity. Usual timing for thefts was 2-3 am, so they would have had to wait a good 4 hours after the test drive to go back and steal it. Lots of time to change clothes and cars.
2. why didn't they take the red RAM? Could it be because it suddenly had no plates on it?
3. did he know today's Rams require a chipped key? If that was the case they knew they needed the key. How did they plan to get it from teh owner?
4. what actually happened in the neighbour's field?
5. why did he request DM bring him duct tape, what is orange thing--is it an orange tarp? Hangar neighbour recalls seeing an orange tarp being stuffed in the trailer.(I know LE found a green tarp, but he had time between the hangar and picking up CN to put the orange one somewhere--maybe at Riverside where he would try to wash it.)
6. Isn't it possible he also got out of the vehicle at Bobcat? Isn't it possible he was DM's hit man and the signal was, "when we stop, get out and come and shoot him?"
7. Who threw the phone? Which arm is dislocated right or left? With sore arms how did anyone throw it that far from the road? (seems to me it was thrown about 50 ft from the road and that would be flipped over the roof of the car) (I wish LE had done a throwing comparison test). Is that where you f'd up, throwing out the phone?

Just a few thoughts. Please feel free to add to the list.

yup..."when we stop, get out and come and shoot him?" truck stops, tb is uncomfortable with what is going on, DM tells him to get out (so he has the key) MS is outside the passenger door..TB won't get out so DM shoots him, MS shoots TB again through the window or, window is already broken from DM 's shot (before MS got to passenger side) and SM does not shoot him since he is dead. The original plan was DM tells Tb to get out, as soon as he is out of truck MS is to kill him, then take him to the farm and incinerate him

 

[hellkat2]

He wasn't into the aviation thing anymore he wanted the hanger for his toys it's been stated by many people including the guy from Texas sorry I can't think of his name. That's why mom applied for the permit for that shed thing on the farm property. So they could get the hanger functioning as intended. He wanted to have inventions remember?

Oh, yes he was making *advertiser censored* movies there as well as taking his engagement pics. What an entrepreneur he was. What was next a meth lab?

 

[Claroon]

Rsbm



The incinerator would not run on the bbq tanks. That had already been put to rest in court.

ETA: Sorry Claroon, I quoted wrong post.

I know but what if the 100 pound tank was empty since they said it had been used before? Couldn't they refill it with propane from a small tank?

 

[Alethea Dice]

I was typing this and I don't know if I didn't finish or if a mod took it off.

My question was, though I highly respect the work of LE and the great thorough job they've done, I'm still wondering how they came to the conclusion so quickly about there not being a 3rd person? Every time we bring it up we're told there is no evidence so don't even talk about it. But I'm still wondering, did DM tell them there was no 3rd after his arrest? If there was no 3rd why did the lawyers go into all the arguments about if TB was shot from the front seat or back?

The entire "my friend is on the side of the road lost" is dumb to me. The entire "follow us" is dumb. Test driving you don't have someone follow you. IMO, If friends drop you off and go fetch coffee, they wouldn't plan to return until you were done.

Why this bothers me is if there was a 3rd driver, and MS and DM were both in the truck, the score is even. Saying no 3rd driver is giving MS a defense. IIMO

I don't know how quickly they came to that conclusion. The last they had said before they stopped giving info was that they didn't know anymore whether there was a 3rd person or not, but that they felt the danger to the public was over. That only means they didn't think the 3rd was a threat, if there was one. I tend to think it was as they moved further along their investigation, they just found no other evidence of a 3rd person. It doesn't necessarily give MS a defense if they don't know the exact time or place that TB was shot. From the opening statement, the Crown still seemed to think that both were there during the shooting when the trial started. JMO

 

[flipflop]

I missed where you peeps saw it?

On AM's fb page

 

[Claroon]

yup..."when we stop, get out and come and shoot him?" truck stops, tb is uncomfortable with what is going on, DM tells him to get out (so he has the key) MS is outside the passenger door..TB won't get out so DM shoots him, MS shoots TB again through the window or, window is already broken from DM 's shot (before MS got to passenger side) and SM does not shoot him since he is dead. The original plan was DM tells Tb to get out, as soon as he is out of truck MS is to kill him, then take him to the farm and incinerate him

Thank you for that plausible theory.

 

[Alethea Dice]

It's my understanding that AM contacted MH and asked to meet him in a park on the 11th and to bring the toolbox with him as AM told MH that DM would want MS to have it. DM had told MH to hold it for him. MS and AM were talking by phone and by text that week after TB's murder and on the night of DM's arrest and again on the 11th when the backpack with weed and the toolbox were dropped off for MS to retrieve in Oakville. Unfortunately we don't know the details of what was really said between AM and MS during the phone calls, IMO. I don't know why AM got involved in the situation with the toolbox and at whose behest. They all tell varying stories about that toolbox and I don't know what to believe.

I do think it's possible that there were two guns and that could be why MS doesn't want to say what happened to them. I think one of these guns was used on TB and maybe the other one was the murder weapon that was used on LB? While MS may not have ever bought a gun, and therefore technically never owned a gun, it would make sense that DM may have given MS the older gun, if not to keep, to use.

All MOO.

Yes, but how would AM have known that MH had the toolbox to give, unless MS told him where it was when he asked him to bring it? DM dropped it off early morning on the 10th. I don't believe he had seen AM between dropping off the box and his arrest, but he had stopped in Oakville during that time. So that leads me to believe that it was MS who had the information about where the toolbox was, and it was MS who told AM to contact MH and bring it to him.

JMO

 

[hellkat2]

It's easy for many people to be cynical about MS getting his GED while in jail awaiting trial, but I'm not among those who think his efforts have no value. I do suspect that TD has had a great deal of influence over MS since his arrest and no doubt TD spelled out to MS exactly what MS should do with his time. I also think it possible that MS has had time to reevaluate his priorities with respect to his loved ones and it seems that his connection with them has a strong influence on him now whereas in the past perhaps he took his family and relationships for granted.

I agree that MS getting educated, changing his appearance and behaving himself while incarcerated during these past three years is an important part of the plan for his legal defence. Appearances matter in court, and I'm sure TD knows that MS having a more average-guy appearance will work with the jury to MS's advantage. Still, though I do think these things are calculated to a great degree, TD could only suggest such changes to MS and could not force them upon him. MS had to do the work required.

I've always thought that MS is a better candidate for rehabilitation than DM, and the changes MS has made - and seemingly sustained - over these few years demonstrates to me that at least he is making an effort. Sometimes the "fake it until you make it" approach works because good habits replace old habits and with practice become more ingrained. In any case, getting an education is good for MS as the better educated he becomes, the more likely he will be prepared to grow in self-esteem and in the ability to accept responsibility for himself and his actions. One day MS will likely leave prison, if he is convicted, and if so I hope he uses his time well to better himself because if he was to remain stagnant, hopeless or embittered, he would have no chance of redemption. I do think he must be punished, but I believe his sentence should be imposed with mercy.

All MOO.

No it isn't easy to be cynical.

 

[Claroon]

Oh, yes he was making *advertiser censored* movies there as well as taking his engagement pics. What an entrepreneur he was. What was next a meth lab?

I think he was setting up or had an escort service and LB might have been one for him.
The downtown Toronto condo could have been for that. As for *advertiser censored*, back in 2013 when we could still sleuth POIs' facebook pages, one had a friend who looked like a kinky hooker and all the photos on her page were deplorable "bondage" photos that make me sick. That CN was called kinks, maybe she modeled for some photos. It's taken down now.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I know but what if the 100 pound tank was empty since they said it had been used before? Couldn't they refill it with propane from a small tank?

It's possible but it takes time. We have a connector that fills the small green camp tanks from the bbq tank. The incinerator tank would need quite a few small tanks and there was not anything in the hanger video to support that theory.

 

[Claroon]

I don't know how quickly they came to that conclusion. The last they had said before they stopped giving info was that they didn't know anymore whether there was a 3rd person or not, but that they felt the danger to the public was over. That only means they didn't think the 3rd was a threat, if there was one. I tend to think it was as they moved further along their investigation, they just found no other evidence of a 3rd person. It doesn't necessarily give MS a defense if they don't know the exact time or place that TB was shot. From the opening statement, the Crown still seemed to think that both were there during the shooting when the trial started. JMO

Well I could have said gives MS his storyline.

Knowing how much DM was concerned for Pedo, you'd think he wouldn't leave him in the car alone in the dark. I'd think someone would be there with Pedo.i.e. 3rd party, or even 4th. IMO

 

[brightii]

Yes, but how would AM have known that MH had the toolbox to give, unless MS told him where it was when he asked him to bring it? DM dropped it off early morning on the 10th. I don't believe he had seen AM between dropping off the box and his arrest, but he had stopped in Oakville during that time. So that leads me to believe that it was MS who had the information about where the toolbox was, and it was MS who told AM to contact MH and bring it to him.

JMO

I've always believed it was CN who told AM about the toolbox after DM's arrest on the evening of the 10th. We also now know that MB and CN had dropped by Maplegate to get cash etc., and that's where AM was also living, in the late hours of May 10th or the wee hours of May 11th, so maybe the toolbox and what to do with was discussed at that time?

All MOO.