Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #15

[Mscree]

To me it's because they never intended to return. I believe the plan was how it was stated by smich. I'm not a believer of everything he has to say nor the same for millards lawyers. But I do believe the business about the lost friend who went to Hortons was in fact part of the plan. How could you not notice someone leaving such a huge set of keys in the cup holder

 

[canadiangirl]

Of course, the victim's friends weren't going to come and get Smich vigilante style. That doesn't mean that in his paranoid state, he didn't imagine it.

I don't agree. I really don't think MS thought about the victim's friends. With all the cover up it appears they were the least of his worries. It was mentioned one time in passing, no elaboration. Not sure why it's the main focus and a vital part of BD's testimony that the passing comment is gospel. Moo

 

[JuneBug67]

But according to Abro who saw and heard BD testify on the stand about what MS said about being afraid of TB's friends, BD did come across as a reliable witness. After reading the article posted today by cansleuther, it supports IMO what MS told BD and provides a plausible explanation why MS would fear the extremely dedicated and well-organized Bosma Army who were quickly and publicly stating that they were determined to find the suspects.

The high profile case that included constant media saturation along with the sheer magnitude of the police investigation and the highly effective and far-reaching social media campaign conducted by TB's friends and family, all combined is quite convincing to me that MS was fearful of them all, and rightly so, as MS was indeed caught thanks to the outstanding efforts of many and he was then charged with first degree murder.

All MOO.

Based on the sum of all past experience most people are reasonably positioned to judge the credibility of someone; does the presentation have the hallmarks of forthrightness, honesty etc. But none of us here has any kind of baseline for the reliability of MS's clarity in that setting, BD's perception, attention, interpretation or memory and when what he says doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense it's reasonable to set aside his statement of what MS said as possibly unreliable or incomplete in its interpretation.

 

[brightii]

I think MS was truly afraid of being caught by TB's friends and police. He did have past experience with police so he would know they didn't mess around, and as stated in a previous post, TB's own brother-in-law was also a police officer and openly said that he would find the suspects, knew where they were and that they better turn themselves in because they had no hope of not being caught. So the way I see it MS likely thought to himself, "OMG, the victim we chose has connections to LE!" It seems very plausible that MS would say to his friend, BD, that he was afraid of the victim's friends.

I respect that others see it differently, but there is some context to add credibility to BD's testimony.

All MOO.

 

[ezuke]

If MS shot TB and DM wants to tell what happened, why would he lie about it? If in fact it was MS, why not just tell it like it was. I find it to be an impossibility that MS, being in the back seat (he got into the back seat behind TB when they left TB's residence), brought out a gun, and before he could fire it, TB suddenly 'sees' it with his back-of-the-head Mommy-eyes, turns around in his seat so that he can grab it from MS, making the gun go off onto the *left* side of his head, and straight through his head into the window. If one pictures that sequence of events in their minds, I would question
i)how did TB see/notice the gun that MS suddenly pulled when he was sitting in the front and probably chatting away nonchalantly with the chatty DM who had no clue this was about to transpire;

The struggle scenario is with DM pulling the gun from the driver's seat; Tim wouldn't have been able to see the gun in MS's hand if MS was directly behind him in the rear passenger seat. Unless, of course, MS scooted over to the rear driver's seat, then Tim could've seen it out of the corner of his eye.

ii)how did he get his body into such a position that he could get his hands on the gun, so quickly, and before MS could shoot him?

See above.

iii)how did the left side of his head end up being shot if that is how it happened?

MS scooting over to rear driver's seat

iv)how was his head in line with the front passenger side window if that is how it happened?

See above

v)how did he cause the gun to discharge so perfectly that it killed him instantly, went straight through and then through the window too?

I don't believe the "gun went off" in a struggle scenario. Not that I have any real experience with guns, but I don't think they just "go off" if there's a struggle for it.

vi)if his body was turned in a way to allow him to grab the gun from the back seat occupant, he wouldn't have been sitting straight up, facing the front, and so when he died, why would his body have slouched to have his head resting on the dashboard, wouldn't his body more fall to the side, due to the angle his body would have had to have been on to grab the gun?

I don't know the mechanics of how a body comes to rest after it has died, but if MS was in the rear driver's seat and Tim was twisted around to the left it might be possible that once he was shot he slumped forward bc of gravity.

vii)if that is how it happened, why is the greatest concentration of GST in the front driver seat area? MS was sitting behind TB. If things happened as quickly as we are being told, what would the reason be for MS to change seats?

Again I refer to scooting over to the rear driver's seat.

The logistics of that whole thing don't make sense for me at all. And if DM is NOT the shooter, then why tell a tale that doesn't make sense?

Why not tell the truth, since he is giving his version of events at all (through the voice of his lawyer even after choosing not to testify in his own defence so that he could not be cross examined on any of it)?

I do think DM pulled the trigger. I just don't understand why there, in the truck, if DM wanted the truck to drive. Not to mention the blood and body matter that would be all over it, and here they/he are driving around all casual like.
*shrug*

 

[Abitcountry]

Of course, the victim's friends weren't going to come and get Smich vigilante style. That doesn't mean that in his paranoid state, he didn't imagine it.

With the same certainty that you proclaim that "the victim's friends weren't going to come and get Smich vigilante style".....,I claim that "the co-accused's friends were more likely to come and get Smich vigilante style" and it appears that Smich himself may have considered that these same people may be inspired to frame him as well. Respectfully then ......becomes a matter of opinion it seems.

 

[matou]

DM kept the truck. He made no attempt to get rid of the truck. He hid the truck. He only did this after he found out AJ was talking to Shane about knowing it was stolen. If the heat died down, I believe he would have gotten the truck painted and gone to Mexico as planned. JMO

 

[hellkat2]

I struggle with why a fire arm would be taken if this was a truck theft. It is something that is NOT apparently done lightly by criminal perpetrators because if a gun is involved and they get caught they know it will significantly increase the amount of time spent in prison. They made themselves identifiable by walking right up to the Bosma's door. I struggle with this as well. Is it like the movie FARGO where bumbling idiots for the thriill and excitement and greed unwittingly find themselves in the world of murdering psychopaths who are bent on killing?
The most sense that was made was Sharlene Bosma's statement, "The Devil led the vilest form of evil down my driveway and it smiled at me before taking Tim away from me".

 

[mimimic]

BD's comment only matters if that is the only thing we have on MS. If DM/MS took IT rather than TB, I doubt they/Ms would even fear his friends. I think LE brought down the hammer during investigation and the crown is going to bring down the hammer this week...hope it's a sledge hammer.

 

[ezuke]

I struggle with why a fire arm would be taken if this was a truck theft. It is something that is NOT apparently done lightly by criminal perpetrators because if a gun is involved and they get caught they know it will significantly increase the amount of time spent in prison. They made themselves identifiable by walking right up to the Bosma's door. I struggle with this as well. Is it like the movie FARGO where bumbling idiots for the thriill and excitement and greed unwittingly find themselves in the world of murdering psychopaths who are bent on killing?
The most sense that was made was Sharlene Bosma's statement, "The Devil led the vilest form of evil down my driveway and it smiled at me before taking Tim away from me".

Since DM wanted the truck and the whole part about driving around with a dead person in the vehicle makes me believe that either a, they took the gun for threatening purposes (like, give me the truck, or I'll kill you), or b they were always going to kill Tim, but perhaps not in the truck. Maybe they were going to kidnap him WITH the truck and murder him at the farm. Makes more sense than shooting someone in the vehicle you want/are currently driving.

 

[mimimic]

who is the HVAC posse? sorry for the question, i assumed it's a joke, but i don't know who it is anyway. :/

 

[JuneBug67]

I think MS was truly afraid of being caught by TB's friends and police. He did have past experience with police so he would know they didn't mess around, and as stated in a previous post, TB's own brother-in-law was also a police officer and openly said that he would find the suspects, knew where they were and that they better turn themselves in because they had no hope of not being caught. So the way I see it MS likely thought to himself, "OMG, the victim we chose has connections to LE!" It seems very plausible that MS would say to his friend, BD, that he was afraid of the victim's friends.

I respect that others see it differently, but there is some context to add credibility to BD's testimony.

All MOO.

You're kind of making my point here brightii. In order to make the statement make sense you are injecting the context of LE and family connections etc. which is not what BD heard or testified to.

 

[brightii]

BD's comment only matters if that is the only thing we have on MS. If DM/MS took IT rather than TB, I doubt they/Ms would even fear his friends. I think LE brought down the hammer during investigation and the crown is going to bring down the hammer this week...hope it's a sledge hammer.

I agree that BD's testimony or any other witness's testimony is not singularly important, but each one adds to the totality of evidence in this case, and every piece adds up to equal a very strong case for the Crown against both accused, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[JuneBug67]

who is the HVAC posse? sorry for the question, i assumed it's a joke, but i don't know who it is anyway. :/

It was an earlier joke by a poster on this thread. With so little to laugh about in this trial, I kind of like it.

 

[mimimic]

It was an earlier joke by a poster on this thread. With so little to laugh about in this trial, I kind of like it.

If it's not a private joke, can you share. sorry it went over my head

 

[brightii]

You're kind of making my point here brightii. In order to make the statement make sense you are injecting the context of LE and family connections etc. which is not what BD heard or testified to.

Yes you're right and I admittedly do that throughout the trial as each piece of evidence comes in and as each person testifies. I compare it to what is already known, to what makes sense or not, and I always look for context to explain the things that may not have been directly stated but are known. In the part of BD's testimony that we're discussing today, it was interrupted by legal arguments, so maybe more could have been explained by BD had he been give the chance.

Though I have my opinions, I always enjoy reading yours, and others here too because it's good to see different perspectives, and I often learn from them, even when I may not agree. There are IMO a lot of valuable contributions here from all the posters on this site.

All MOO.

 

[JuneBug67]

If it's not a private joke, can you share. sorry it went over my head

Because Tim worked in HVAC the poster referred to the friends of Tim's who MS allegedly feared as the HVAC posse. It's funny, and as a bonus highlights the mild absurdity of a literal interpretation of BD's testimony.

 

[Errrr]

I never said to dismiss the signs of a struggle, I'm suggesting that MS's story skipped over the struggle.

I'm also saying that MS could have been describing anyone to BD, and what the take away is, for me at least, is that BD remembers MS being scared that people were out to get him. At that point DM was in jail and his friends were seeking to distance themselves, not seeking revenge on MS, and BD knew that.

People have no trouble accepting the hearsay evidence that DM was planning to steal a truck from an ******* or a nice guy, or that he asked for a hose to be run all day, why should we not be allowed to accept the hearsay evidence of someone like BD, who appears to have nothing to gain by lying about it?

We aren't. I don't think anyone doubts BDs statement of what MS said. The issue is his interpretation of what MS meant by it. That part is hearsay because he cant know what someone else means. He could have taken it at face value then but I haven't heard of any n*****s associated with this business? DM is white. The cops are mostly white. Dutch are mostly white. .??

 

[hellkat2]

To me it's because they never intended to return. I believe the plan was how it was stated by smich. I'm not a believer of everything he has to say nor the same for millards lawyers. But I do believe the business about the lost friend who went to Hortons was in fact part of the plan. How could you not notice someone leaving such a huge set of keys in the cup holder View attachment 95118

They had to come back for the Yukon. Or what are you referring to?

 

[hellkat2]

Since DM wanted the truck and the whole part about driving around with a dead person in the vehicle makes me believe that either a, they took the gun for threatening purposes (like, give me the truck, or I'll kill you), or b they were always going to kill Tim, but perhaps not in the truck. Maybe they were going to kidnap him WITH the truck and murder him at the farm. Makes more sense than shooting someone in the vehicle you want/are currently driving.

Did they want to get caught? Because why would they walk up to the bosma residence. DM with short sleeves on and tattoo visable? MS could have stuck a stick into the back of TB and told him it was a gun and ordered him out of the truck. If they get caught using a gun the time they are gonna do is significantly longer than if they use a stick. This whole thing does not make sense in my opinion.