Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #15

[lanman]

Did they want to get caught? Because why would they walk up to the bosma residence. DM with short sleeves on and tattoo visable? MS could have stuck a stick into the back of TB and told him it was a gun and ordered him out of the truck. If they get caught using a gun the time they are gonna do is significantly longer than if they use a stick. This whole thing does not make sense in my opinion.

I have to wonder if it never even occurred to them that when they went to look at the truck, someone other than just the owner might see the them. I also wonder why they phoned TB just before they headed up the driveway. They could have just knocked on the door. These two things could be related, perhaps they were expecting to call and have just the owner come out to greet them, and didn't want to risk knocking on the door in case someone else answered.

 

[hellkat2]

I have to wonder if it never even occurred to them that when they went to look at the truck, someone other than just the owner might see the them. I also wonder why they phoned TB just before they headed up the driveway. They could have just knocked on the door. These two things could be related, perhaps they were expecting to call and have just the owner come out to greet them, and didn't want to risk knocking on the door in case someone else answered.

The fact is that TB's wife and their tenant came out to greet DM and MS. DM and MS would know they are now identifiable and they did not alter their plan to kill him in cold blood and steal his truck? And with this plan, they park DM's Yukon just down the road and they would have to pick that up after the fact???? So they went to this bother? Why? I come up with is this. (DM's band of thieves) do not realize they are dealing with a murdering psychopathic serial killer? DM has enough on his band of thieves from their involvements in other past crimes and his motive for all of it was to keep them quiet on anything he does? DM lured his band of thieves with his affluence to be part of what they may have believed to be thrill seeking crimes involving car thefts not murder? While all along DM's motivation for all of it was to kill? I feel that much of his band of thieves had huge gaps in their testimony which may have been related to incrimiinating themselves in the process or fears that DM would start incriminating them...tit for tat. Have they learned that you cannot cheat an honest man yet in all of this?

 

[leafs_fan93]

I have to wonder if it never even occurred to them that when they went to look at the truck, someone other than just the owner might see the them. I also wonder why they phoned TB just before they headed up the driveway. They could have just knocked on the door. These two things could be related, perhaps they were expecting to call and have just the owner come out to greet them, and didn't want to risk knocking on the door in case someone else answered.

This makes sense, and is what makes me think DM knew what was going to happen and MS didn't. mS could have had the baggy hoodie, with hood up, because it was his understanding that if DM liked the truck, they would be back for it, and should should the owner get a good look at him, he may get caught, while DM came down the driveway knowing the owner wasn't going to return, so who cares if he sees me. I'm sure he didn't count on Sharlene and Wayne being there, esp coming late at night, but at this point he was getting desperate for a truck. It was said that he had been looking for over a year, but his words to AM were very telling "should I steal the truck from the nice guy, or from the *******". To me this says he was at the point of, one of these two trucks was coming home with him. After not stealing the truck from IT, it was just this one left, he liked it, and would do whatever it took to get it. All MOO.

 

[ABro]

bbm IIRC, you've stressed the point here before that the jury can pick and choose which parts of the evidence and witness testimonies they believe when considering their decision. I think that's what everyone here is attempting to do. Tunnel vision could explain why some people don't accept certain things, but it can just as easily be because they honestly find things questionable and therefore say so.

All MOO.

Absolutely yes. The jury can pick and choose to believe all, none or some of a witness's testimony.

I found Daly a sharp, smart guy despite his clothes and attitude. He wouldn't let himself be pushed into a corner by any of the lawyers. At one point he stopped Dungey in his tracks with a very perceptive comeback to a line of questioning. It's too bad no one taught him to dress properly and show some respect. He might have made a good lawyer himself.

For the record, I don't think the victim's friends comment is particularly important in the grand scheme of things. I only brought it up because posters were saying that it was likely MWJ and his boyz that Smich feared when there was testimony that it was someone else.

Far more important is that Daly testified several times in examination-in-chief and under cross examination that Smich owned a gun while Smich completely denied ever owning a gun. This is the kind of situation where it will be up to the jury to decide who's telling the truth, aided by instructions from the judge.

Tunnel vision and sincerity aren't mutually exclusive. And much as I respect everyone's right to have an opinion, that doesn't mean I have to respect all their opinions.

 

[Typhoo1961]

The fact is that TB's wife and their tenant came out to greet DM and MS.

The fact is that SB and her tenant were already outside in the garage having a smoke before DM and MS walked up to the house. They never came out to greet anyone.

 

[Yendys]

Of course, the victim's friends weren't going to come and get Smich vigilante style. That doesn't mean that in his paranoid state, he didn't imagine it.

Exactly

 

[Mscree]

I'm referring to is the did return right after they left. They never intended to return after "The Theft" they intended to to kill. They didn't worry about parking the Yukon there for a short time.

 

[brightii]

Tomorrow is a very significant day for the Crown when they cross MS. I'm hoping they will make some serious headway in getting to MS but MS has shown himself to be like a large boulder, very hard to move.

I hope the Crown crosses MS with brief but memorable questions. I think many people, and perhaps the jury too, have little appetite left for another marathon session starring MS. That's how I feel anyway. I think the Crown needs to make their point clean and clear and then after TD finishes with MS, and possibly any other witnesses for him, we'll get to the closing addresses right?

All MOO.

 

[Claroon]

Good Morning Claroon......I know that I had seen a photo of a gutted meter box attached to the side of the barn and so this morning I went searching to put this one to rest once and for all. Not easy...45 minutes searching and checking Google images but in the end the elusive photo has been found.
I was unable to copy the photo and so I have included the link to CP 24 http://www.cp24.com/news/search-resumes-at-farm-belonging-to-murder-suspect-1.1447927 . I will try to post the photo separately.

The meter is clearly visible on the rubble wall of the barn.....but it appears to be an empty housing with no glass and internal workings ....in fact if the photo is enlarged it appears to have cut wires sticking out of the empty round face of the housing where the actual metering device should be. On rural properties, the landowner pays for all of the equipment to hook up electrical service from the hydro line on the main road to the designated structure and so when power was disconnected, the lines and empty housing would be the property of the landowner and would have been left intact.
This photo is date stamped as of September 10, 2013....and I did find one other similar photo of poorer quality date stamped May 16, 2013 in the Toronto Sun entitled "Police investigate incinerator's role in Tim Bosma slaying"


Hope this puts to its final rest the question of whether there was electricity to the barn on May 6, 2013.

Thanks. It has wires from the road as mine does at our house. I can't tell from that photo, however that it is gutted. The wires hanging at the top are how ours hang. Doesn't really matter, just wondering.

 

[Claroon]

Meter is definitely missing.

If there was power, DM and CN would not have needed a flashlight at the barn. And CN would have seen the squeaky floor.

MOO

Power is not equivalent to lighting. Power can be hookup for equipment.

 

[Quaere_veritatem]

Something that further supports the alternate SS videotheory discussed here over the weekend is…If you consider MS’s testimony, I and others have put forward that he hastailored his testimony to the disclosure he received over the last three years(to be honest they have both done that to some degree). In that disclosure, he has Plaxton’s timelinewhich only includes the Yukon going south at 8:46 and north at 9:20(approximately). That’s why MS doesn’tinclude it in his version of the events even though he knows that is whatactually happened. But he ignores it inhis story. MS figures if his version juststicks with the evidence that’s already been presented then it lendscredibility to his story. Then in thetrial during the cross examination of Plaxton’s by the DM defense team this new informationcomes forward that shows the truck going north past SS and returning 10 minuteslater. At that point, MS can’t go backto his counsel and say he wants to change his version of the events that he hadalready told them because he is thinking of a story that fits the evidencebetter.
He’s had three years to practice this one and he’s gottenvery good at sticking to it.

 

[hellkat2]

If MS shot TB and DM wants to tell what happened, why would he lie about it? If in fact it was MS, why not just tell it like it was. I find it to be an impossibility that MS, being in the back seat (he got into the back seat behind TB when they left TB's residence), brought out a gun, and before he could fire it, TB suddenly 'sees' it with his back-of-the-head Mommy-eyes, turns around in his seat so that he can grab it from MS, making the gun go off onto the *left* side of his head, and straight through his head into the window. If one pictures that sequence of events in their minds, I would question
i)how did TB see/notice the gun that MS suddenly pulled when he was sitting in the front and probably chatting away nonchalantly with the chatty DM who had no clue this was about to transpire;
ii)how did he get his body into such a position that he could get his hands on the gun, so quickly, and before MS could shoot him?
iii)how did the left side of his head end up being shot if that is how it happened?
iv)how was his head in line with the front passenger side window if that is how it happened?
v)how did he cause the gun to discharge so perfectly that it killed him instantly, went straight through and then through the window too?
vi)if his body was turned in a way to allow him to grab the gun from the back seat occupant, he wouldn't have been sitting straight up, facing the front, and so when he died, why would his body have slouched to have his head resting on the dashboard, wouldn't his body more fall to the side, due to the angle his body would have had to have been on to grab the gun?
vii)if that is how it happened, why is the greatest concentration of GST in the front driver seat area? MS was sitting behind TB. If things happened as quickly as we are being told, what would the reason be for MS to change seats?

The logistics of that whole thing don't make sense for me at all. And if DM is NOT the shooter, then why tell a tale that doesn't make sense?

Why not tell the truth, since he is giving his version of events at all (through the voice of his lawyer even after choosing not to testify in his own defence so that he could not be cross examined on any of it)?

DM is banking that MS will....given enough rope hang himself at this point I would imagine???? That is the only thing I can think of. DM does not have to prove his innocence. The have to prove him guilty.

 

[deugirtni]

Originally Posted by lanman
I have to wonder if it never even occurred to them that when they went to look at the truck, someone other than just the owner might see the them. I also wonder why they phoned TB just before they headed up the driveway. They could have just knocked on the door. These two things could be related, perhaps they were expecting to call and have just the owner come out to greet them, and didn't want to risk knocking on the door in case someone else answered.

This makes sense, and is what makes me think DM knew what was going to happen and MS didn't. mS could have had the baggy hoodie, with hood up, because it was his understanding that if DM liked the truck, they would be back for it, and should should the owner get a good look at him, he may get caught, while DM came down the driveway knowing the owner wasn't going to return, so who cares if he sees me. I'm sure he didn't count on Sharlene and Wayne being there, esp coming late at night, but at this point he was getting desperate for a truck. It was said that he had been looking for over a year, but his words to AM were very telling "should I steal the truck from the nice guy, or from the *******". To me this says he was at the point of, one of these two trucks was coming home with him. After not stealing the truck from IT, it was just this one left, he liked it, and would do whatever it took to get it. All MOO.

This makes perfect sense, that they likely never expected to be seen by anyone other than the truck seller.

I think I know why DM called TB. I'm not sure that much of a point was made about this, but this, imho, answers that question and adds to the timeline considerations as well. TB's truck was INside the garage when the duo arrived. Imagine the timeline.. the duo arrive in the country setting, not sure if house numbers are highly visible from the road? They likely went looking down the road first in the Yukon, to see where the property was exactly, but they didn't see the truck (because it was inside the garage). They park at the driveway at Bullard's(sp?) dad's property at the corner, DM calls TB at 9:05pm ('Where are you located exactly?')

SB's testimony stated that she and WDB were sitting just inside the garage. She said she heard the ringer on TB's phone because he had it set as loud as possible, and that it had been charging under the kitchen window. She heard TB talking on the phone, and could also hear other voices coming down the driveway as well as footsteps approaching. She said she and WDB stepped forward to the garage door to see who it was because it was strange to have people arriving without a vehicle, living in the country, people do not walk, they drive. She said it was getting dusky but they could see 2 guys half way down the driveway. One of them was talking on his cellphone and TB was also talking on his phone. By the time they each saw one another, they hung up and the call ended. TB introduced himself and made smalltalk while SB stood back. She said TB 'got the truck out from the back of the garage'.

MS already had a criminal record, complete with mugshots and prints. For him to have hid his face is meaningless in this regard since the object of the evening was to steal a truck, and here he was, standing in person with people who would later be able to ID him. Whether this was a scoping mission or was the actual theft, MS and DM would be the prime suspects. MS's 'sketchiness' and unwillingness to be seen has zero to do with a murder plan, imho. Anyone with half a brain is going to want to hide his face from the owners when he is going to steal their truck that night.

It would be helpful to know how long in duration that call was, between TB and DM which happened at 9:05pm. From SB's testimony, DM was already talking on the phone to TB as he was walking up the driveway toward the house. The 9:05pm timestamp is from the cellphone exhibit and I believe the time recorded is when the call initiated, as opposed to when the call ended. Apparently it takes 5 minutes to walk from the corner to TB's house. Were they on the phone that whole time while they walked to the house? They hang up when they see each other. Then they make introductions, make smalltalk, presumably view the truck at least at little, and TB then brings it out from the back of the garage, gets out of the truck, tells his wife he'll 'be right back', and the 3 men take their positions inside the truck. How many minutes did all of that take?

 

[Inspector_North]

Power is not equivalent to lighting. Power can be hookup for equipment.

But most of the time lighting is also installed. Canada does have limited natural light for many months of the year. It makes operating that equipment easier and safer. I live in rural Ontario and have not seen a barn that has power without some form of Hydro lighting.

MOO

 

[brightii]

DM and MS could have stolen the truck fairly easily without killing TB.

DM aka Evan could have met TB alone. He could have worn a long sleeve shirt or jacket to cover his tattoos. He could have worn a hat and sunglasses and arrived just a bit earlier than he did - just before it was getting so dark so that sunglasses wouldn't have seemed out of place. He could have glued on sideburns and a fake moustache. Somehow he could have bothered to create a bit of a disguise so he couldn't be so readily identified.

DM could have left MS waiting in the Yukon with Pedo where they parked at the field and at least MS would not have risked being identified by TB or SB and WdB. MS could have waited to see DM and TB drive by and then MS could have pulled out from the field quickly and could have began to follow them to the Bobcat location. At that point DM could have parked and ordered TB out of the truck, taken TB's phone and left TB alive to make his way home. DM and MS were two against one. They did not need to kill TB! After they stole TB's truck, they could have continued on their way straight to the hangar to start stripping the truck to prep it for DM's future use, as needed.

Had TB returned home later that night, obviously the crime would not have included murder and even if the police conducted a theft or carjacking investigation, LE likely would not have located DM and MS as quickly as they did. Perhaps DM would have had TB's truck changed by the time the cops came calling and he and MS could have both reported their phones lost or stolen on May 7th had they been smarter and there wouldn't be a SIM card to be found between them! Once murder was involved, LE had so many resources available to them to pursue TB's killers relentlessly but I wonder if LE would have been so invested to catch truck thieves?

I am convinced that TB's murder was planned. Planned poorly and haphazardly yes, but planned nonetheless by these heartless killers who together were not only inexplicably bold and brazen, they acted together without humanity or conscience as they sought out their victim, and thrived on the dangers, the risks and the challenges involved. Unbelievably they actually believed they could get away with murder undetected, IMO.

I will never understand why DM and MS killed TB and didn't just take his truck. They showed no mercy for defenceless TB and that is evident to me. Especially in the fact that together these two had no problem making TB disappear forever by incinerating him and then casually continuing on with their sick mission by stripping the truck as TB's lifeless body was burning. It takes a certain kind of vicious inhumane creature to do what they did. I'm actually glad I can't understand either of them and why they did what they did to TB.

All MOO. All my own opinion and speculation.

 

[hellkat2]

The fact is that SB and her tenant were already outside in the garage having a smoke before DM and MS walked up to the house. They never came out to greet anyone.

That is correct. Bad choice of words. The point I was making is that both SB and her tenant had a visual on the both of them.

 

[hellkat2]

DM and MS could have stolen the truck fairly easily without killing TB.

DM aka Evan could have met TB alone. He could have worn a long sleeve shirt or jacket to cover his tattoos. He could have worn a hat and sunglasses and arrived just a bit earlier than he did - just before it was getting so dark so that sunglasses wouldn't have seemed out of place. He could have glued on sideburns and a fake moustache. Somehow he could have bothered to create a bit of a disguise so he couldn't be so readily identified.

DM could have left MS waiting in the Yukon with Pedo where they parked at the field and at least MS would not have risked being identified by TB or SB and WdB. MS could have waited to see DM and TB drive by and then MS could have pulled out from the field quickly and could have began to follow them to the Bobcat location. At that point DM could have parked and ordered TB out of the truck, taken TB's phone and left TB alive to make his way home. DM and MS were two against one. They did not need to kill TB! After they stole TB's truck, they could have continued on their way straight to the hangar to start stripping the truck to prep it for DM's future use, as needed.

Had TB returned home later that night, obviously the crime would not have included murder and even if the police conducted a theft or carjacking investigation, LE likely would not have located DM and MS as quickly as they did. Perhaps DM would have had TB's truck changed by the time the cops came calling and he and MS could have both reported their phones lost or stolen on May 7th had they been smarter and there wouldn't be a SIM card to be found between them! Once murder was involved, LE had so many resources available to them to pursue TB's killers relentlessly but I wonder if LE would have been so invested to catch truck thieves?

I am convinced that TB's murder was planned. Planned poorly and haphazardly yes, but planned nonetheless by these heartless killers who together were not only inexplicably bold and brazen, they acted together without humanity or conscience as they sought out their victim, and thrived on the dangers, the risks and the challenges involved. Unbelievably they actually believed they could get away with murder undetected, IMO.

I will never understand why DM and MS killed TB and didn't just take his truck. They showed no mercy for defenceless TB and that is evident to me. Especially in the fact that together these two had no problem making TB disappear forever by incinerating him and then casually continuing on with their sick mission by stripping the truck as TB's lifeless body was burning. It takes a certain kind of vicious inhumane creature to do what they did. I'm actually glad I can't understand either of them and why they did to TB.

All MOO. All my own opinion and speculation.

Well stated. I agree. There is a special place in hell for individuals that do these horrors.

 

[Claroon]

Thanks so much for posting this link as the discussion here today made me recall that press conference with TB' brother-in-law and in the context of what BD testified to about what MS said to him about being afraid of TB's friends, it makes complete sense to me that it is very likely true.

"A police officer himself with Sarnia Police Services, Noordam had some strong words for those involved in Bosma's disappearance.

"Turn yourself in," he said. "We know who you are. We know where you are. We will find you. There's no hope for you."



All MOO.

And the joke is (not really a joke) he is a family/friend but also a police officer, so in that way, maybe meant "the police" and maybe meant "Bosma's friends one of whom is a police officer." My opinion is that MS recalls his previous arrests and knows what could happen.

 

[Claroon]

DM kept the truck. He made no attempt to get rid of the truck. He hid the truck. He only did this after he found out AJ was talking to Shane about knowing it was stolen. If the heat died down, I believe he would have gotten the truck painted and gone to Mexico as planned. JMO

Yes, even by his own admission, he thought he was in the clear.

"A message from the Millard phone at 4:46 am "Retooled for stormy weather, all clear, getting some sleep now, 7 am accounting meeting" #Bosma Apr 19, 2016" AC Tweet

 

[Claroon]

But most of the time lighting is also installed. Canada does have limited natural light for many months of the year. It makes operating that equipment easier and safer. I live in rural Ontario and have not seen a barn that has power without some form of Hydro lighting.

MOO

Yes but how many Dellens does it take to change a lightbulb?