Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #15

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This is interesting. I hadn't picked up on the date before. MS's sisters wedding was on May 19th, so he was doing the search for ammo on the day before the wedding. I believe he stated that he had buried the gun only days after receiving it, but this would appear that he still had it on the 18th, a full week later. What date was it that the surveillance on him stopped for those few days?

ETA: No surveillance on May 19th and 20th.

Good catch. I got off the Google spreadsheet "We do our best not to be detected. Had Smich under surveillance for 5 or 6 day starting May 14 to 18, then again May 21. Arrest May 22. Feb 24, 2016"

No wonder they missed the supposed gun burial if there was one. Maybe he took it to the wedding under his tux.
 
MS too had many many "I don't know"s as well that impacted his credibility on the stand. MS couldn't remember anything that may have incriminated himself yet had the memory of an elephant when anything pointed to DM being responsible. Both MS and DM shy away from the inconvenient truth, IMO because they both know that they are both guilty but are only interested in saving themselves from punishment.

I think that they each went directly into self-protection mode the minute they were caught. DM in the beginning likely relied on his family name and reputation to protect him from jail, as I think he thought he could convince the police - or his lawyer at least - that DM had been taken advantage of and was being framed by someone already known to police, someone with a criminal record - MS. How convenient for DM had the police fallen for his story, but how naive and out of touch with reality was DM that he would think the police would believe him and overlook all the evidence that pointed directly at him.

I think MS went into paranoia mode immediately after DM's arrest for first degree murder and his paranoia only increased once DM's lawyer alluded to other suspects and a framing aspect that the lawyer could not discuss. With all communication cut off between DM and MS they had no way to brainstorm their next steps to try and help each other. Now they were each on their own. MS would never have gone to the police or a lawyer had he not been arrested, IMO. MS likely obsessed day and night from the time DM was caught until his own arrest about what DM was telling police and his lawyer. Paranoia and trust don't go together so I think once MS was arrested his paranoia won out and he was quickly convinced that DM had talked and had blamed MS for TB's murder. Of course MS would dig his heels in and set out to blame everything on DM. I think that even today they think the other betrayed them and neither seems to grasp that the only true betrayal of trust in the story was experienced by TB and SB who believed them when they said they wanted to test drive TB's truck with an interest in buying it. That was the most offensive betrayal in this scenario. An innocent life lost and trust in the good intentions of strangers now forever suspect.

When I look at the lives of DM, at 27 years old and MS, at 25 years old at the time TB was murdered, I see clearly that neither accused took any responsibility for their own actions. Neither had any real plan for their lives that didn't include some level of criminality and avoidance of adult responsibility. They each used the other to escape from responsibilities and their connection was not deep and meaningful, it was useful. Their friendship was simply born out of DM's casual need for weed and MS's ability to sell it to him. In MS's mind, DM had money to burn, party houses to flop in, a hangar with vehicles complete with his own personal mechanic, a penchant for thrills, an eye for the ladies, a superficial charm, an ambition for thievery, a fascination with guns and drugs and power, and DM had all the time in the world on his hands to play at his particular lifestyle. How impressive was DM and alluring to someone like MS who had no true ambition at all as he idled his life away daily while using and selling weed to his neighbourhood pals, drinking and smoking away the long boring hours of every similar day with others who were equally void of excitement for life, equally adrift, equally short on confidence and without much hope for a better future, a future that was frightening in its lack of potential and promise for MS. I believe MS writing rap lyrics was an outlet to express his frustrations, his inner feelings of uselessness, impotency and despair. And then DM came along and MS suddenly saw a way to a dream and a purpose. DM had the means to help MS become a rapper and MS latched on to DM's encouragement of his budding talents. DM kept the promises coming for MS and though always just slightly out of reach of fulfillment, MS became hooked on hope.

For DM, MS ensured that he would always have an admirer in his midst, a constant companion to count on who would question nothing and believe in every word DM would feed him and MS was more than hungry, he was starving for hope. DM recognized MS's need and of course he exploited it for all it was worth. In MS, DM found someone who also had nothing much to do all day and all day to spend with DM whenever DM needed a friend. An only child, a child who was viewed as an outcast, DM bought friends all of his life but not all were as simpatico, aimless and accommodating as MS. MS was available and eager to play second fiddle to DM and that was a big ego boost for DM whose soul was empty and needing a fix of adulation on a daily basis to keep him going. DM needed MS. Whatever story DM concocted, whatever wild mission he planned, MS was enthralled with DM's bravado and bold vision and MS was only too happy to play a starring role in a DM production. Each was lost in their own individual states of loneliness and inertia and each became lost to the world when together they chose to become the ultimate outsiders and end the dreams of others who did have hope and a future beckoning brightly on the horizon. In the end, DM and MS were much more alike than different. Even now, they are both looking for a plan to escape justice by blaming each other when the truth is they have only themselves to blame.

DM and MS made a choice together to commit theft and murder. It was a conscious choice and though neither is prepared to accept responsibility for the part they played, soon they will be on the other side of forcible confinement when the Crown convinces the jury that they are both guilty as charged and then they will be forced to accept the fate they created together for themselves. TB's final moments were tragically and mercilessly hopeless as he had no chance to escape, and now I hope that DM or MS have no hope to escape justice.

All MOO. All of the above is my own opinion and speculation.

Another well spoken post. (smiley won't insert, but it would say "great post.")
 
I guess one thing that I struggle with... with the ms story believers is not that his testimony has given rise to reasonable doubt for them (i respect their right to believe what they do and i know they reciprocate that)
Its that they seem to view his testimony as on the same level of credibility as all the rest of the witnesses from the get go.

But i believe part of the instructions (there is a pdf out there if you google it) for the jury is to evaluate the credibility of the evidence witnesses give and the credibility of the witnesses themselves. One or two of those points advise the jury to weigh what the witness has to gain from lying under oath, and if they have a vested interest in the outcome of the case. Obviously MS (and CN also) have the most to gain by lying and its their future at stake. You cant just ignore that.... It doesnt mean they necessarily ARE lying, but that fact has to be considered with them and NOT so much, or at all with other witnesses like Daly etc. MOO

https://www.nji-inm.ca/index.cfm/pu...tions-on-trial-procedure/assessing-testimony/

:cheers:
Such a great post and said so succinctly! Thank you! Self-interest indeed should be weighed when considering the testimony and/ or evidence of both accused.

All MOO.
 
Good catch. I got off the Google spreadsheet "We do our best not to be detected. Had Smich under surveillance for 5 or 6 day starting May 14 to 18, then again May 21. Arrest May 22. Feb 24, 2016"

No wonder they missed the supposed gun burial if there was one. Maybe he took it to the wedding under his tux.

Except 9 mm rounds don't fit the Walther PPK which takes the shorter .380 ACP, so it would appear that he was looking at ammunition for a different gun.
 
Maybe took off the hoodie and gloves and stashed them somewhere and any blood or GSR was only on them.

DM and MS likely did have a change of clothes at the ready, according to the texts re their mission plan, and the clothes they wore at the scene of the crime and at the hangar while cleaning up the truck, were very likely destroyed by fire, either with the truck seats when they were burned, or thrown into the incinerator with TB. I don't believe that MS's red hoodie could not have been found if it still existed at some point during these past three years. It's gone, gone....

DM just couldn't part with his precious murse so instead of destroying it by fire he decided only to wash it. Was not that same murse he quickly retrieved from his office at the hangar when the police showed up to question him on the 10th earlier in the day on the day of his arrest?

Almost every other piece of DM's and MS's clothing - and perhaps shoes too - that they wore during the crime and the initial clean up were likely destroyed by fire, IMO. How senseless of DM to have kept the gloves.

All MOO.
 
MS too had many many "I don't know"s as well that impacted his credibility on the stand. MS couldn't remember anything that may have incriminated himself yet had the memory of an elephant when anything pointed to DM being responsible. Both MS and DM shy away from the inconvenient truth, IMO because they both know that they are both guilty but are only interested in saving themselves from punishment.

I think that they each went directly into self-protection mode the minute they were caught. DM in the beginning likely relied on his family name and reputation to protect him from jail, as I think he thought he could convince the police - or his lawyer at least - that DM had been taken advantage of and was being framed by someone already known to police, someone with a criminal record - MS. How convenient for DM had the police fallen for his story, but how naive and out of touch with reality was DM that he would think the police would believe him and overlook all the evidence that pointed directly at him.

I think MS went into paranoia mode immediately after DM's arrest for first degree murder and his paranoia only increased once DM's lawyer alluded to other suspects and a framing aspect that the lawyer could not discuss. With all communication cut off between DM and MS they had no way to brainstorm their next steps to try and help each other. Now they were each on their own. MS would never have gone to the police or a lawyer had he not been arrested, IMO. MS likely obsessed day and night from the time DM was caught until his own arrest about what DM was telling police and his lawyer. Paranoia and trust don't go together so I think once MS was arrested his paranoia won out and he was quickly convinced that DM had talked and had blamed MS for TB's murder. Of course MS would dig his heels in and set out to blame everything on DM. I think that even today they think the other betrayed them and neither seems to grasp that the only true betrayal of trust in the story was experienced by TB and SB who believed them when they said they wanted to test drive TB's truck with an interest in buying it. That was the most offensive betrayal in this scenario. An innocent life lost and trust in the good intentions of strangers now forever suspect.

When I look at the lives of DM, at 27 years old and MS, at 25 years old at the time TB was murdered, I see clearly that neither accused took any responsibility for their own actions. Neither had any real plan for their lives that didn't include some level of criminality and avoidance of adult responsibility. They each used the other to escape from responsibilities and their connection was not deep and meaningful, it was useful. Their friendship was simply born out of DM's casual need for weed and MS's ability to sell it to him. In MS's mind, DM had money to burn, party houses to flop in, a hangar with vehicles complete with his own personal mechanic, a penchant for thrills, an eye for the ladies, a superficial charm, an ambition for thievery, a fascination with guns and drugs and power, and DM had all the time in the world on his hands to play at his particular lifestyle. How impressive was DM and alluring to someone like MS who had no true ambition at all as he idled his life away daily while using and selling weed to his neighbourhood pals, drinking and smoking away the long boring hours of every similar day with others who were equally void of excitement for life, equally adrift, equally short on confidence and without much hope for a better future, a future that was frightening in its lack of potential and promise for MS. I believe MS writing rap lyrics was an outlet to express his frustrations, his inner feelings of uselessness, impotency and despair. And then DM came along and MS suddenly saw a way to a dream and a purpose. DM had the means to help MS become a rapper and MS latched on to DM's encouragement of his budding talents. DM kept the promises coming for MS and though always just slightly out of reach of fulfillment, MS became hooked on hope.

For DM, MS ensured that he would always have an admirer in his midst, a constant companion to count on who would question nothing and believe in every word DM would feed him and MS was more than hungry, he was starving for hope. DM recognized MS's need and of course he exploited it for all it was worth. In MS, DM found someone who also had nothing much to do all day and all day to spend with DM whenever DM needed a friend. An only child, a child who was viewed as an outcast, DM bought friends all of his life but not all were as simpatico, aimless and accommodating as MS. MS was available and eager to play second fiddle to DM and that was a big ego boost for DM whose soul was empty and needing a fix of adulation on a daily basis to keep him going. DM needed MS. Whatever story DM concocted, whatever wild mission he planned, MS was enthralled with DM's bravado and bold vision and MS was only too happy to play a starring role in a DM production. Each was lost in their own individual states of loneliness and inertia and each became lost to the world when together they chose to become the ultimate outsiders and end the dreams of others who did have hope and a future beckoning brightly on the horizon. In the end, DM and MS were much more alike than different. Even now, they are both looking for a plan to escape justice by blaming each other when the truth is they have only themselves to blame.

DM and MS made a choice together to commit theft and murder. It was a conscious choice and though neither is prepared to accept responsibility for the part they played, soon they will be on the other side of forcible confinement when the Crown convinces the jury that they are both guilty as charged and then they will be forced to accept the fate they created together for themselves. TB's final moments were tragically and mercilessly hopeless as he had no chance to escape, and now I hope that DM or MS have no hope to escape justice.

All MOO. All of the above is my own opinion and speculation.

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
 
Except 9 mm rounds don't fit the Walther PPK which takes the shorter .380 ACP, so it would appear that he was looking at ammunition for a different gun.

It will take the 9mm Kurz (short) round OR the .380 as stamped on the side of the gun
 
I think the most likely reason he will not produce the gun is that it will mostly likely tie him to another crime and/or death.

:welcome4: Dave7101!! I agree with your opinion about why MS will not reveal what happened to the gun - or guns.

All MOO.
 
There was minimal blood staining found on the back seat of Tim's truck. There is no reason to believe some of it had to be transferred.

If there was minimal blood staining on the back seat of Tim's truck then that can mean no one was seated there at the time of the shooting.
 
It will take the 9mm Kurz (short) round OR the .380 as stamped on the side of the gun

The Kurz is a European (German) designation. I don't know any retailers or ammunition suppliers who sell as Kurz on this side of the world and I would be surprised if Smitch were searching for 9mm Kurz if looking for ammunition for the Walther.
 
Of course it does not mean that. People perceive and memorize things in very different ways. And here we have a bunch of clowns with THC exposures approaching those of Cheech and Chong.

In my mind, if I were an imaginary lawyer (I'm not) and specifically Tom Dungey (I don't think I am), I think I would call a memory expert on behalf of MS. The gun story in particular is well outside most people's experience and expectations about how memory should work, and virtually nobody I expect believes it can be true. It probably can be true however, as unlikely as that is, and a memory expert might reduce the number of "I don't remembers" from MS from something in the scoff range to the hmmm range. My son has always had a terrible memory for some kinds of things, and until you've experienced that kind of "are-you-serious-you-can't-be-serious" kind of memory loss first hand, it's hard to believe. For my son I think it's lack of attending to what he's doing such that the memory is never really formed in the first place, and it's now also (sadly) exaggerated by a fondness for weed. Anyway, I don't intend to excuse or explain away the many contradictions and lapses in MS's testimony and memory, but I do think at least some of them can be explained by legitimate memory loss and legitimate differences in recall and perception between witnesses.
 
Does anyone remember the name of the person early on in the investigation in May 2013 who was friends with DM and owned a Ferrari , lived in Ottawa I think it was, and had some line of clothing for 'charity' promotion? I believe they sold at DM's raves that were held in the Malton hanger back in 2011,2012. I am curious, was his name Scott? He quickly went dark shortly after DM was arrested. I am not intending any sleuthing on this individual, but I am still VERY curious who or what kind of contact Scotty was in all of this. Alot of those early names were scrubbed from WS long ago, rightly so to protect those not necessarily involved. JMO
 
I was thinking about how differently things could possibly have turned out for DM had the tables been turned and MS had been the first suspect arrested. DM would have had two weeks to get rid of every bit of evidence that incriminated him. If MS tried to implicate DM, DM could have said to police with a completely straight face, "What truck?" With two weeks, DM could have had the VIN changed, the truck painted and be safely on his way with his other buddies and off to the Baja races.

But of course that imaginary course of events in DM's favour could never have happened because of SB's immediate alert to police about TB being missing, her and their tenant's reliable eye witness descriptions of the two suspects, IT's keen observation skills, the Lucas Bate phone leading directly to DM, and the incredible and coordinated work of police forces whose quick action located not only the suspects, but the truck inside the trailer parked on DM's mother's property, and the incinerator hidden on DM's farm with just remnants of TB's remains still inside. And the list goes on and on...

It is really mind-boggling to think about the depth and breadth and scope of TB's truck theft and murder investigation and the sheer volume of incriminating evidence that was not only discovered and gathered, but analyzed and edited for significance to the crime and the accused by the Crown. What an impressive team it is that worked together to help catch TB's killers and bring them to justice.

All MOO.
 
I know opinions are like *advertiser censored**holes but here's how I feel about the case as of today:

DM's version of events refuses to actually put any culpability for TB's death on either MS or DM. 'The gun went off when TB grabbed it.' o_O. That sociopath needs to rot in jail.

MS is definitely not forthcoming with the whole truth. But appears to have at least shown some remorse for what happened. That might still get him a second degree charge, if the crown doesn't put the final nail in any doubts people are still having that he was a completely willing and aware partner in this scheme. I'd really like the furniture/sausages texts to be explained but I really don't we're going to get anything more interesting out of that line of questioning other than "I don't recall what I was thinking."

I could imagine a baby reaching for a gun pointed at them, but not someone who knows what a gun is. Why do people need to find a motivation for these guys to shoot? Being evil is sufficient. The prospect of not getting what they came for may have been overwhelming at the time.
I do think MS is sorry........for himself.
 
If MS was in the truck when Bosma was shot would it not be logical that he would have carried GSR and or blood back into the Yukon.

D+M are GAC.
What about when DM took the Yukon "to get gas"? Wouldn't he still be in his murder clothes at that time? It was before they lit the incinerator wasn't it? Did they wash up and change clothes before cleaning up the truck?
 
Funny, the first thing I thought when he pulled up so close to the truck was, gee, he didn't leave much space for changing plates.

Geez, when you think about it, he's blocking the plate. He pulled up close to block any body from viewing the plate numbers, precautionary move, watching DM's back, to keep 6 :), can't deny that. In other words this shows something other than what he claims in his testimony, jmo.
 
I think about how ludicrous it is that DM did not plead guilty in this case. The fact that he had purchased an incinerator that could fit a human body - and bought it at great expense - and then even made it mobile - with no reasonable explanation for having needed it, is beyond incriminating given that it was used to cremate TB's body.

I wonder how DM actually expected anyone to believe his stories about the incinerator (used for garbage disposal, mobile pet crematory, farm animal crematory)? So damning to DM's case I believe is that both he and MS headed off immediately after TB's murder to cremate him. TB's murder was no accident, IMO.

If DM had any historical evidence to prove that he bought and used the incinerator for a legitimate business purpose, perhaps some may have had doubt about his intentions, but he couldn't prove that and his own uncle, RB in fact disputed DM's claim about wanting to go into the pet crematory business. I know one thing, I never want to know anyone who owns an incinerator! It astounds me that those who did know DM never seemed to question its purpose too much or worry that they might one day be killed and cremated. I wonder how many people that knew both DM and LB, ever let their mind wander to the thought of DM's incinerator as they wondered after she went missing what had become of her? I wonder how many of those people have stopped wondering about LB and are now thanking their lucky stars that they got away from DM and MS relatively unscathed.

All MOO.
 
Geez, when you think about it, he's blocking the plate. He pulled up close to block any body from viewing the plate numbers, precautionary move, watching DM's back, to keep 6 :), can't deny that. In other words this shows something other than what he claims in his testimony, jmo.
Most importantly, at the Bobcat location MS claims he did NOT know that any wrong doing had transpired. Until hesees DM get out and put a gun into his satchel. And MS claims DM says“I'm taking the truck”.
If that were the facts...
Never mind the plates.
Why did MS pull up so close to TB's truck?
What if TB got out of his truck and saw there was no third person in the Yukon. I wonder if the Crown will ask for more details to hear more “I don't remember” “I was under a lot of stress” BS
Those facts alone make me believe MS was inTB's truck when the fatal shot was fired.
 
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