Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #15

[Deleted member 102539]

"... allegedly selling g u n s (plural) to Dellen Millard."

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

A question...
When the crown presented a witness, both defense attorneys had the opportunity to cross, then the crown had the final opportunity to ask further questions.
Will the same thing happen here? When the crown if finished with MS, will TD get a last crack with MS?

Yes he will, if he feels it is necessary.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I am not sure how one could be convicted of first degree murder if the person was not even present at the time. moo

If there is evidence of planning/premeditation of murder by two or more people, it doesn't matter who it was who committed the actual killing -- all who conspired together/participated can be found guilty of 1st degree murder. I have no legal background, this is just my personal understanding based on various books that I have read.

MOO

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In Canada, murder is classified as either first or second degree:[5]


FIRST DEGREE (any one of the following):

-was planned and deliberate

-was contracted

-was committed against an identified peace officer

-while committing or attempting to commit the hijacking of an aircraft

-while committing or attempting to commit sexual assault

-while committing or attempting to commit sexual assault with a weapon

-while committing or attempting to commit aggravated sexual assault

-while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping and forcible confinement

-during a hostage taking

-while committing criminal harassment

-was committed during terrorist activity

-while using explosives in association with a criminal organization

-while committing intimidation



SECOND DEGREE ... any murder which is not first degree murder




Above was copied from:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Canadian_law)

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I believe that there is more than enough evidence to prove that both DM and MS are guilty of first degree murder because of two of the above-mentioned:


-that the murder was planned and deliberate

-that it was committed while attempting to commit or committing forcible confinement

 

[Claroon]

Didn't MS say that DM was test driving before he stole one to make sure that he got one that he didn't have to put a lot of work into? Why would his plan include doing considerable damage to the thing he wanted in good condition, that doesn't make sense to me.

For someone who planned it out for a year, and aborted every time there was anything wrong, I can't imagine coming up with a whole new extremely risky plan in the time between MS getting in the truck and the end of the driveway. Without ever telling his partner in crime any part of the plan. If DM had decided to change the plan any time before that, he would have left MS behind to walk back to the Yukon alone, which would have been far more reasonable if MS following behind was the plan.

I think if the plan was to kill and incinerate a man, DM had every opportunity to bring the incinerator to the hanger at any time before the crime, and wouldn't have had to go out for gas. If they had both known that the incinerator would be needed, there was not reason not to have it at the hanger in preparation. If the one without access to the incinerator was the only one who knew it would be needed, that is the only thing that would account for it not being in place prior to the crime in preparation.

If 'I'm taking the truck' sounded like the truth, it may be because MS said it as he pulled the gun from his giant hoodie pocket.

Your post made me recall how he told LW how he'd spent a gruelling five full days over the last year, trying to change his truck for a diesel. :boohoo: I think he was tired of the whole thing and just wanted it done.

I also think he was a poor time manager and so busy with the financial stuff, etc., that getting the incinerator to the hangar didn't fit in. But actually, I don't know if the farm doesn't have electricity for sure. It may very well have, He did show some planning regarding the incinerator thus the texts with MS about the bbq and SS about the generator just prior. But I think maybe he forgot it would be dark and hard to see and also to work on the truck in the dark barn while the body was being burned at the farm and realized the setback once they got there and that was possibly a change of plan. From the timeline I believe they were at the farm a good hour. IMO.

Regarding getting gas, the Yukon gas gauge had been registering empty for some reason before that as per texts with SS. I think the gas run might have also included Tim Horton coffee or a Red Bull or something of that nature once he realized it was going to be an "all nighter." IMO

 

[Claroon]

Was thinking today, and DM is "home" at last, right where he needs to be. His stay at prison will be with new friends he doesn't have to buy (who knows maybe he will), who may think of him as a hero in some odd way, he doesn't have to manage a budget, he can write, draw, read, and go deep into his imagination recalling former trips, sell coffee from his cell (how the heck would he do that?). He doesn't have to try to make anyone proud. He can simply be Dell.

All in my imagination of course.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

It's a wonder they didn't shoot each other, one from the driver's side, one from the passenger's side.

I wish with all my heart that it would have happened exactly that way before Tim was shot.

MOO

 

[DMB]

Okay so what I'm getting is that people were tending to believe MS's testimony that he was let out of the truck at the end of TB's street in the farmer's field immediately after leaving TB's driveway, until NS's 'testimony' in regard to the video, and 'DM's testimony through the voice of NS', that they had gone on a highway trip when in fact MS killed TB.

I am personally seeing SO much wrong with this thinking.



First of all, what's going on with that SS video testimony given by the Crown's expert witness, Plaxton? Why would the expert witness have left out other trucks with the same characteristics as TB's truck during the same short time period in question, without giving those truck passes any mention in the chain of events? What is going on there? The Crown is telling a story and said they would prove that TB was shot by both men, and so if there were additional truck-passes at different times, that would BOLSTER the Crown's submission, so why leave it out? It has *everything* to do with this case, whether or not it was believed the additional truck passes were by TB's truck or not. If not, the expert should have stated his reasoning for not believing those trucks were not part of the story, rather than leave it for the defence to poke holes through.

The timing is not accurate on the video. The expert, who the Crown depended on to give viable, believable evidence to support this very important case, forgot to record what he did to verify the time discrepancy. It was stated to be 3 hours. Now because of the defendant's lawyer's submission that since the time was off, it could have been off an additional 10 minutes which would support his client being alone in the truck with TB. If we are going to start adding and subtracting time from evidence presented by the expert, then how much are we willing to alter things?

Perhaps if that recording wasn't from the exact day, we could say the time was out 21 hours. or 27 hours to make it a different day. We can do what we want with the time on the video to make it bend to whatever we want, if we are going to alter the stated time. Such a crucial piece of evidence that could show whether one of the accused gets a murder conviction or whether he wasn't even present, you might suppose the Crown would take those additional truck sightings a little more seriously? We have been told the Crown is brilliant, on the ball, ahead of the game.. I'm at a complete loss as to how this got so screwed up. If the time is meaningless, if additional truck passes by the victim's truck are omitted, then what do we really have here as far as evidence?

Now we are left with.... supposedly there are 4 passes on the SS video.
i) travelling south toward TB residence at 8:46pm
*Let me stick in here that we apparently know that the defendants were walking up TB's driveway at 9:05pm, based on cellphone evidence
ii) travelling north toward Wilson St at 9:05pm
iii) travelling south toward TB residence at 9:15pm
iv) travelling north toward Wilson St at 9:20pm with another truck following close behind

The expert chose to omit from his findings items ii and iii. And apparently we have no reason for this? And yet to have had that information presented, it would have at least lended support to the Crown's case in that both defendants were in the vehicle when TB was killed and would have discounted MS's testimony under oath.

The defendant's lawyer wants to add them back into the picture and he also wants to add about 10 minutes to the video timestamp, on top of the 3 hours it is already out, according to the expert witness. Okay well I guess it's fair game that if the expert screwed up that bad, anyone and everyone can start adding or subtracting whatever increments of time suits their agendas, right? We don't know if all of those truck passes in the video are TB's truck, or whether only some of them are, or whether none of them are. Apparently none of those trucks were tested and overlaid in the manner in which the Yukon was examined. What if only one of them was, out of the 2 additional truck-passes?

What if the eye witness who has no dogs in this fight, who testified under oath that he actually witnessed the vehicles coming from his dad's lot on the corner was correct when he said the 2 vehicles travelled straight through Trinity and down Book Road, which would have meant the trucks didn't pass by SS at all immediately after picking up the Yukon? What if the trucks had travelled through Book, and and then DM said he got the bogus text and turned around on Book to go back to the corner of Trinity and let MS out to follow in the Yukon, and then pass by SS? What if that is what MS was remembering when he said that DM made a U-turn? What if MS doesn't have great recall on which directions he was driving the Yukon, since he was merely following and is an inexperienced driver? Would these scenarios change anything in relation to the times?

Now we have DM, who has testified through the voice of his legal counsel, his version of events that fateful night. He seems to be admitting to being in the vehicle, driving it, when TB was shot dead by way of MS suddenly becoming a loose cannon and bringing his gun out, at which time all hell broke lose while he was driving down the 100Km/hr major highway. If he is going to tell this story on the stand, then why lie about the fine details?

Suddenly we are expected to believe that the ringleader's lackey who does what he's told and hasn't made decisions thus far on his own, which jointly involve the two, has taken the reigns all on his own initiative, pulled out a loaded gun, and that TB somehow saw it from his seat in the front passenger side, turned around in his seat to physically grab it out of the hand of the backseat gun-toter sitting directly behind him, causing the gun to go off, right through his head at the left side when it killed him instantly, with the bullet continuing to travel out the other side of his body, straight through the front passenger side window to cause it to shatter, and possibly also to have a bullet hole in it.

Now, DM is all angry because he wanted the truck and wasn't expecting a murder. He immediately exits at Wilson, makes a loop back onto the highway going west this time, takes the same Hwy#52 exit, back to the Bullock farm field at Book and Trinity, not knowing who might be around to see TB's truck driving by with a bullet through the window and a dead man slouched in the front passenger seat. BIG RISK, wouldn't anyone say? But because this version lines up with an ALTERED version of video timelines, and involving additional truck passes in the video which were inexplicably omitted by the Crown and the expert witness, suddenly it is the truth?

Believable?

There were two testimonies on the times of the Supersucker video, Det Paxton and the manager of Super Sucker. Both of them did check the times, one compared to his cell phone, the other to his Military style Swiss Army watch. Both of them said 3 hours. Paxton swears to this, just didn't note this in his records. Never did either of them concede it could be 10 mins off!

I have lived 5 minutes away from the Bosma home my entire life. It is rural in a sense, however 4 minutes to a large power center at Wilson with Walmart, Canadian tire, Winners, GoodLife Fitness, Starbacks, Tims and many other restaurants and businesses and gas stations. There is also many golf courses close by. This is a busy intersection and exactly where DM proposes he exited off the highway???

I also noticed when Pillay was cross examining Paxton he went on in length about what a busy an area it was at Super Sucker and how could they know that was TB's truck, however, when Sachak crosses MS he notes what a quiet area it is and what are the chances it is a different truck????

 

[mskrisc]

A question...
When the crown presented a witness, both defense attorneys had the opportunity to cross, then the crown had the final opportunity to ask further questions.
Will the same thing happen here? When the crown if finished with MS, will TD get a last crack with MS?

I believe so.

 

[brightii]

Was thinking today, and DM is "home" at last, right where he needs to be. His stay at prison will be with new friends he doesn't have to buy (who knows maybe he will), who may think of him as a hero in some odd way, he doesn't have to manage a budget, he can write, draw, read, and go deep into his imagination recalling former trips, sell coffee from his cell (how the heck would he do that?). He doesn't have to try to make anyone proud. He can simply be Dell.

All in my imagination of course.

I think the loss of his freedom will be extremely difficult for DM to bear. I think MS will fare much better in prison as he seems to be able to apply himself to learning new things and I think he'll be able to fit in with the general population. DM I think will spend many years trying to convince people he is innocent.

While I do want to see both accused held responsible for TB's murder, I can't help but feel sad that these two young men went so far astray of the law to became completely detached from conscience. They have devastated TB's family and their own families by their calculated and cruel actions that showed utter disrespect for the value of life. TB's death was so unfair and unnecessary!

DM and MS need never have been in this bleak situation had they but made the decision to live decent lives that didn't involve taking the property and lives of others. Now they will have to face the consequences, but I wonder if they will ever be able to truly face the truth of themselves? They should be regretful about what they did, but if they do have their regrets at this point, it comes across still as regret much more for what happened to them than to TB. As I listen to both of their stories I get the impression that they each feel that they are somehow the victims. Their mutual blame game succeeded only in making it seem that way to me. Will either of the accused grasp how many lives they forever changed on that dreadful night of May 6th, 2013? They will both likely have a long lifetime to reflect on that question when they relive that night when TB's life was abruptly cut short at their will. Their memories of what they did together will likely haunt them in their every waking hour and in recurring nightmares that will not cease. It's all such a terrible and total waste of lives. What a crying shame.

All MOO.

 

[brightii]

I wish with all my heart that it would have happened exactly that way before Tim was shot.

MOO

I'd agree as long as in that scenario no one died. I can't fathom wishing for the death of anyone, even TB's killers. I just wish the accused never killed anyone. But wishful thinking is fruitless.

All MOO.

 

[Errrr]

I am not sure how one could be convicted of first degree murder if the person was not even present at the time. moo

People who only drive the getaway car at a robbery are also guilty of robbery I believe?
Tim was murdered during a planned act of theft (not a scoping mission) IMO

 

[Typhoo1961]

Was thinking today, and DM is "home" at last, right where he needs to be. His stay at prison will be with new friends he doesn't have to buy (who knows maybe he will), who may think of him as a hero in some odd way, he doesn't have to manage a budget, he can write, draw, read, and go deep into his imagination recalling former trips, sell coffee from his cell (how the heck would he do that?). He doesn't have to try to make anyone proud. He can simply be Dell.

I'd prefer it if he were in a maximum security prison somewhere else and not up the street from me in Barton jail.

 

[Typhoo1961]

I don't know if the farm doesn't have electricity for sure. It may very well have

At the time of TB's murder the farm did not have electricity.

 

[mimimic]

I know opinions are like *advertiser censored**holes but here's how I feel about the case as of today:

DM's version of events refuses to actually put any culpability for TB's death on either MS or DM. 'The gun went off when TB grabbed it.' . That sociopath needs to rot in jail.

MS is definitely not forthcoming with the whole truth. But appears to have at least shown some remorse for what happened. That might still get him a second degree charge, if the crown doesn't put the final nail in any doubts people are still having that he was a completely willing and aware partner in this scheme. I'd really like the furniture/sausages texts to be explained but I really don't we're going to get anything more interesting out of that line of questioning other than "I don't recall what I was thinking."

Way behind in the thread. On my drive with Hubby last night (he knows I follow this case here) I tried as best I could to tell him MS version and the part about the SS video and getting out etc. Hubby was adamant they will both get murder 1, because a man, TB, left with these two and didn't come back! I told he I'd like him to write this>he is out watching the sun rise...(he sounded like the crown might) much more authoritative/practical/sensible/factual/reasonable than I. ALTHOUGH surprisingly to me he said MS (schmitz) (mitch) (smitt) (whatever! his! * name! is) likely screwed himself more and that DM may be the one to get less because he didn't take the stand.

 

[musicaljoke]

Geez, when you think about it, he's blocking the plate. He pulled up close to block any body from viewing the plate numbers, precautionary move, watching DM's back, to keep 6 , can't deny that. In other words this shows something other than what he claims in his testimony, jmo.

Indeed. If, as he claims, he saw DM get out of the truck and put his gun into his purse, then he couldn't have seen TB with his head on the dash. In spite of Princess' photographic proof it's possible to sit like that, bless her heart, there are so many problems with MS' story that I can't believe any of it.

A RAM is a big truck. From MS' standpoint, and in the dark, how could MS see that the passenger was slumped over? He could not see that. He wouldn't be able to see anything in the passenger seat unless he walked around the two trucks that were parked closely together and opened the passenger door.

Then, it's a leap of gigantic proportion to assume that the passenger was shot. Why not assume that he was tying his shoes, or resting his aching back, or whatever a normal person might think. Shot?! Why would he think that? He couldn't see a wound since that wouldn't be visible from where MS stood. He wouldn't see blood spatter since it was dark.

And, not to belabour the point that the dash is too far forward in the truck to rest one's head against, even if that is remotely possible, TB would have had to set the seat in the farthest forward position, which is unlikely, and then stretched forward in order to precariously balance on the edge of the dash. I don't accept MS' story.

 

[Variant]

It will take the 9mm Kurz (short) round OR the .380 as stamped on the side of the gun

It was reported that Smich searched the term "rounds for 9mm" on Google. With or without quotes that search brings up only listings for the longer 9 by 19 (luger, parabellum etc.) ammunition that doesn't fit the Walther. I went through ten pages of Google search results on "rounds for 9mm" and there was no listing for the kurz. You have to specify kurz if you are searching for 9mm kurz.

This is because in North America 9mm means the longer bullet and that's what is sold to you if you ask for 9mm. The Walther ammunition is manufactured and sold as .380 ACP here.

I think Smich was interested in a different gun. For example, the 9mm Glock is preferred by gangstas.

 

[Tealgrove]

I'd prefer it if he were in a maximum security prison somewhere else and not up the street from me in Barton jail.

Not to worry Typhoo....he'll find a permanent home in one of those new fancy super jails real soon.

 

[Mscree]

Indeed. If, as he claims, he saw DM get out of the truck and put his gun into his purse, then he couldn't have seen TB with his head on the dash. In spite of Princess' photographic proof it's possible to sit like that, bless her heart, there are so many problems with MS' story that I can't believe any of it.

A RAM is a big truck. From MS' standpoint, and in the dark, how could MS see that the passenger was slumped over? He could not see that. He wouldn't be able to see anything in the passenger seat unless he walked around the two trucks that were parked closely together and opened the passenger door.

Then, it's a leap of gigantic proportion to assume that the passenger was shot. Why not assume that he was tying his shoes, or resting his aching back, or whatever a normal person might think. Shot?! Why would he think that? He couldn't see a wound since that wouldn't be visible from where MS stood. He wouldn't see blood spatter since it was dark.

And, not to belabour the point that the dash is too far forward in the truck to rest one's head against, even if that is remotely possible, TB would have had to set the seat in the farthest forward position, which is unlikely, and then stretched forward in order to precariously balance on the edge of the dash. I don't accept MS' story.

While I agree with most of your thoughts and I don't accept MS's story for a second. It is reasonable to assume Mr Bosma was shot when you see your partner place a gun in his scatchel.

 

[don_quixote]

While I agree with most of your thoughts and I don't accept MS's story for a second. It is reasonable to assume Mr Bosma was shot when you see your partner place a gun in his scatchel.

Witnesses are not summoned so that the court can hear their assumptions.... What else did he assume and now stating as a fact?

 

[musicaljoke]

While I agree with most of your thoughts and I don't accept MS's story for a second. It is reasonable to assume Mr Bosma was shot when you see your partner place a gun in his scatchel.

Seeing my partner put a gun into his scatchel might make me think that he didn't want to leave his gun in the vehicle with a stranger. It probably wouldn't enter my mind that my partner had just randomly murdered someone.

Such an awful thing to even talk about . :/