Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[hellkat2]

There does seem to be a lot of glow on the back of TB s truck.

Cripes??? Where did this picture come from? Need more info.

 

[billandrew]

Excellent - thank you.

Looking at it in context with the other texts/conversations each of them were having it's rather interesting:

May 2 ?? Smich texts Millard: "me and Marlena gonna have a couple drinks tonight..."
May 2 ?? Smich texts Millard: "oh wanna come by and run some missions with me while her and her friend pierce each other?" (MS PLANNING A MISSION FOR MAY 2)
May 2 ?? Millard texts Smich: "at dinner w my mom."
May 2 ?? Smich texts Millard: "Ok it's fireworks tomoro night." (MS CHANGES HIS MISSION PLANS FOR MAY 3RD - ACCORDING TO DM'S PLANS)
May 3 ?? Lisa Williams (Millardair bookkeeper) speaks with Millard at hangar, hears of plan to return to Baja.
May 3 ?? Millard asks Schlatman if the junk forklift mast/forks are working.
May 3 ?? Smich messages Millard: "Can marlena reach and chill with pedo while we do our thing?" (THIS IS THE MS PLANNED MISSION HE WANTED TO DO ON THE 2ND)
May 3 ?? Smich sends Millard photos of a log bench, some tree stump stools, and sausages in a frying pan. (NO CONTEXT - NO COMMENT FROM DM)
May 3 ?? Smich messages Millard: "Can u bring me gloves and tape and maybe an orange guy?" (INDICATING MS NEEDED GLOVES, TAPE & OXY FOR WHATEVER THE PLAN WAS)
May 3 ?? Millard texts Smich that he just finished a 6 hour meeting at the hangar. (DM UNAVAILABLE FOR THE MAY 3RD MISSION?)
May 3 ?? Smich asks Millard to come scope something out. (INDICATES A SENSE OF URGENCY ON MS PART)
May 3 ?? Smich messages Millard: "Yo holla tomoro when you back from toronto. There's a bunch. Missions and more." (INDICATES AGAIN, URGENCY ON MS PART - HE REALLY WANTED DM TO SEE SOMETHING)
May 3 ?? Smich messages Millard: "I thought it was fireworks tonight but it's not yet." (CHANGE OF PLANS AGAIN)

Thoughts?

You left out an important text:

May 2 - Millard texts Smich: "l gotta be in Waterloo tomorrow morning. Planning on checking you before 4pm, work on the mission..."

Notice that he writes "the" mission and not "a" mission. To me this implies that, regardless of the missions Smich is later referring to, there is a bigger, overarching mission -- THE mission -- that they are working on together. The flow of the conversation about THE mission takes place over weeks, months, or even over a year depending on how you choose to look at it. However, the chatter really started escalating in April 2013:

• April 6 - they have an exchange about search and capture/destroy missions
• April 26 - Smich writes "It's almost mission time "
• April 27 - Millard writes "headed to Waterloo, figure out the BBQ situation for this week"

Around this time Millard is clearly prepping the incinerator and Smich is not left out of the conversation. Millard's text on May 2 indicates that they were going to work on THE mission sometime after 4pm the following day (May 3). This was not one of Smich's little missions (perhaps selling pot or scoping out other thefts), this was THE mission they were going to work on, THE mission that involved the prepping of the incinerator.

I would suggest that on May 3rd, the plan was for Millard and Smich to get together and prepare or test the incinerator, since they would want to make sure that it was working. It is also possible that they wanted to practice shooting their gun(s). The reference to fireworks could easily refer to either of these things. The sausages and fireside furniture ties back to the use of the incinerator.

It seems they did not get together that night (May 3rd) because Millard was caught up in a 6 hour meeting at the hangar that day and didn't feel like doing anything afterwards. That's why Smich replied back, "I thought it was fireworks tonight but it's not yet."

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Is it true that if MS told TD that he either a) shot TB or b) was in the truck when TB was shot, that TD could not put him on the stand if he knew MS was going to lie? (I understand there are unethical lawyers, just like any profession....but more as a general rule of thumb).

Granted, MS could have said very little even to TD and only come up with his version of events after discovery......could a lawyer suggest a version of events to their client?

Appreciate your input. I'm not trying to be difficult....i'm just taking longer to get there than some people....and helpful and informative answers to these kinds of questions are useful in moving the conversation along. mOO

My brother's friend in high school drove while impaired, hit and killed a young boy, panicked and left the scene to go home.

He went back to the scene and was arrested. His blood alcohol was over the legal limit. He remained silent and his family retained a lawyer. The lawyer sat down with him, going over the evidence and told him that as he left the scene, the police could not definitely say that he was driving impaired at the time of the collision. His lawyer didn't ask him if, in fact, he was drunk when the collision occurred. He was advised he could plead not guilty, and he might be found guilty of leaving the scene of an accident.

(He did plead guilty, and told the truth. He served a short sentence and was ordered to speak about what he did to high school students as part of his community service. He still voluntarily makes speeches about what he did and the impact it had on the family of the little boy.)

 

[Coldpizza]

ADMIN NOTE

It's understood that this trial has been a long and arduous time with many that have different points of view.

That being said,with the weekend discussion still ahead please don't let your appreciated comments disintegrate into a high school banter.

Obviously, many have differing opinions of Tim Bosma's last moments, but WS is not the place to get personal in the ongoing discussion.

Trial will resume Tuesday May 31 with closing arguments. In the mean time, please keep the thread open with a constructive conversation.

Thank you

 

[Ontario Mom]

They're basically a huge question mark to me at this point. I expected there to be follow-up, but the media and the lawyers have all steadfastly ignored them since they were entered into evidence.

I was one of the people who flipped out when those tweets appeared, but I expected to receive more context. Maybe they will be brought up in closing?

(As an aside, I'm kind of saddened by the tone the threads have taken in the last week or so. I've been more or less afraid to post. It would be nice if people could debate facts/opinions and not lash out personally at posters or groups of posters.)

Yep, here too. Never know when I'm going to get my head bit off.

Aside from that, seeing the messages in context with the actual conversation shines a bit of a different light on things. I still think on May 6, 2013 MS was a slimy creep & just went along with whatever DM wanted done, but the context of these messages & pics matter a great deal. I'd never actually seen it presented this way so that was very helpful.

 

[Ontario Mom]

You left out an important text:

May 2 - Millard texts Smich: "l gotta be in Waterloo tomorrow morning. Planning on checking you before 4pm, work on the mission..."

Notice that he writes "the" mission and not "a" mission. To me this implies that, regardless of the missions Smich is later referring to, there is a bigger, overarching mission -- THE mission -- that they are working on together. The flow of the conversation about THE mission takes place over weeks, months, or even over a year depending on how you choose to look at it. However, the chatter really started escalating in April 2013:

• April 6 - they have an exchange about search and capture/destroy missions
• April 26 - Smich writes "It's almost mission time "
• April 27 - Millard writes "headed to Waterloo, figure out the BBQ situation for this week"

Around this time Millard is clearly prepping the incinerator and Smich is not left out of the conversation. Millard's text on May 2 indicates that they were going to work on THE mission sometime after 4pm the following day (May 3). This was not one of Smich's little missions (perhaps selling pot or scoping out other thefts), this was THE mission they were going to work on, THE mission that involved the prepping of the incinerator.

I would suggest that on May 3rd, the plan was for Millard and Smich to get together and prepare or test the incinerator, since they would want to make sure that it was working. It is also possible that they wanted to practice shooting their gun(s). The reference to fireworks could easily refer to either of these things. The sausages and fireside furniture ties back to the use of the incinerator.

It seems they did not get together that night (May 3rd) because Millard was caught up in a 6 hour meeting at the hangar that day and didn't feel like doing anything afterwards. That's why Smich replied back, "I thought it was fireworks tonight but it's not yet."

I didn't meant to overlook or leave anything out, I was just starting from the conversation that night. You certainly do bring a compelling argumentation though. Ever consider a career in the prosecution business?

ETA: But I do have to point out, it does seem as if MS was trying to get DM in on whatever potential "mission" (good gracious I hate that word now) he had going on, for the night of the 2nd or the 3rd, whenever DM was available.

 

[Claroon]

He was in on the plans to steal. 100% proven. Beyond any possible shadow of a doubt. In on those plans. I don't think anyone will argue that.

But in Canada, it is not 1st degree when a murder happens during the commission of a crime. Prove premedition of the murder (not the theft) or prove forcible confinement.....then we have 1st degree murder. But your logic is that MS was involved in the planning of a theft and during that theft someone got killed....that is not 1st degree. MOO

No, he was involved in the planning of the theft and murder as it was all rolled into one IMO.

 

[NashBridges2]

This rings true to me. Bear with me for a moment and help me reason this out.....

Knowing that TD could not put MS on the stand and knowingly have him lie (ethically at least....and he seems like a straight up guy)....don't we have to assume MS's story on the stand is basically the same one he told TD 3 years ago?

And if that's the case, is there ever a reason a lawyer who believes his client to be innocent would advise them to keep their mouth shut, spend 3 years behind bars, and then only "come clean" on the witness stand

the fact that MS blamed it on DM and gave his side of the story, wasn't news to the family, the crown, etc. They've known for a while through disclosure etc. And no, I can't see his lawyer telling him to rot in jail for 3 years. But his lawyer can't make him come forward or speak to cops, etc. That was Smichs decision alone, and I believe it was so he could see/hear all the evidence against him so he could play his cards. No innocent man sits in jail for 3 years to wait to tell his story, it just doesn't happen that way.

 

[NashBridges2]

I don't doubt that your questions are in good faith and they are good questions. But the problem is we can't draw conclusions or get to the truth of this or any other case by making assumptions about the solicitor/client relationship because that's a privileged relationship. It is therefore pointless to speculate about it.

So speaking in general terms only, no, a lawyer cannot knowingly suborn perjury.

I agree. But unfortunately, some still do.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I know that this isn't relevant at all, but I am curious ... Does anyone know what Schlatman said to the police when they went to the hangar about the GPS on the stolen Bobcat?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Oh what I would give to have a copy of that police report. I don't believe it was ever stated what anyone said to the police. A load of lies, I'm sure.

 

[mimimic]

This rings true to me. Bear with me for a moment and help me reason this out.....

Knowing that TD could not put MS on the stand and knowingly have him lie (ethically at least....and he seems like a straight up guy)....don't we have to assume MS's story on the stand is basically the same one he told TD 3 years ago?

And if that's the case, is there ever a reason a lawyer who believes his client to be innocent would advise them to keep their mouth shut, spend 3 years behind bars, and then only "come clean" on the witness stand?

I hope a few put in a response to this question.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Oh what I would give to have a copy of that police report. I don't believe it was ever stated what anyone said to the police. A load of lies, I'm sure.

"What Bobcat?"

Just a guess.

 

[Errrr]

Was I there? How am I to know for sure? How do you know for sure? IIRC both MS and AM testified about a BBQ that week. DM had AM invite the girls. I don't hold any validity that sausage pics meant anything more then that. There is no evidence to support my theory or yours. IMO. The fact it was briefly mentioned and nothing more came of it makes it a moot point

I personally have never seen a BBQ with a generator on it. Have you? Perhaps one sentence has no relation to the one next to it?

 

[Claroon]

If we want to move on from the "planned" and "deliberate" how about this one. I wonder if the terms "besetting or watching" could be interchanged with "scoping?"


Criminal harassment

(6) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under section 264 and the person committing that offence intended to cause the person murdered to fear for the safety of the person murdered or the safety of anyone known to the person murdered.

Criminal harassment

264 (1) No person shall, without lawful authority and knowing that another person is harassed or recklessly as to whether the other person is harassed, engage in conduct referred to in subsection (2) that causes that other person reasonably, in all the circumstances, to fear for their safety or the safety of anyone known to them.

Marginal noterohibited conduct

(2) The conduct mentioned in subsection (1) consists of

(a) repeatedly following from place to place the other person or anyone known to them;

(b) repeatedly communicating with, either directly or indirectly, the other person or anyone known to them;

(c) besetting or watching the dwelling-house, or place where the other person, or anyone known to them, resides, works, carries on business or happens to be; or

(d) engaging in threatening conduct directed at the other person or any member of their family.​

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-231.html

 

[marymcd]

There is something that still really bothers me. The incinerator had been cleaned out. I understand that given a high enough temperature and long enough period of time that Tim's remains would have been reduced to bone ash. But if two bones, and small ones at that were retrieved from the incinerator then shouldn't most if not all of the larger ones remained? And if so, where are they? If they weren't reduced to bone ash in the incinerator, they wouldn't have been when they burned all the rest of the evidence. Does anyone remember if this was discussed earlier in the trial? It drives me crazy to think that they may exist somewhere.

 

[canadiangirl]

I personally have never seen a BBQ with a generator on it. Have you? Perhaps one sentence has no relation to the one next to it?

Sorry I'm not sure what you're asking. I didn't reference a generator in this post?

 

[billandrew]

ETA: But I do have to point out, it does seem as if MS was trying to get DM in on whatever potential "mission" (good gracious I hate that word now) he had going on, for the night of the 2nd or the 3rd, whenever DM was available.

RSBM. I didn't get the same impression. On May 2 Smich asked if Millard wanted to hang out and run some missions that night, and Millard was like "no I'm having dinner w my mom." This exchange was clearly separate and peripheral to their plan to work on "the" mission the following night, May 3, which was a Friday.

Smich almost seemed excited about their big May 3 plans:

• It's fireworks tomoro night (message sent May 2).
• Can marlena reach and chill with pedo while we do our thing?
• (Sends photos of the sausages and fireside furniture.)
• Can u bring me gloves and tape and maybe an orange guy?

Millard then backed out because he'd had a long day at the hangar, so Smich was basically like "Ok well holla back tomoro, I got a bunch of other missions for us to look into. I thought it was fireworks tonight but it's not yet."

The following day, May 4, Millard started booking test drives. There was a real sense of urgency from Millard to get his truck quickly, and whatever plan he and Smich had to check out the incinerator got thrown to the sideline. That's why Millard messaged Smich, "change of plans, meet up with you tomorrow (Sunday) at noon. We've got 2 appointments to make."

Basically, time was running out to get the 3500 truck, and this mission -- the mission -- was now moving forward under DM's command. Their little prep meeting originally scheduled for May 3 got tossed. I would speculate that this hastiness is why they screwed up and got caught:

• While they both knew a murder was part of the plan, they didn't get to plan the execution of it in detail. It ended up being rather improvised.
• They didn't get a chance to test the incinerator. DM wanted it to be used at the farm to keep it concealed, but they weren't able to make it work with the generator.

 

[Ontario Mom]

RSBM. It didn't get the same impression. On May 2 Smich asked if Millard wanted to hang out and run some missions that night, and Millard was like "no I'm having dinner w my mom." This exchange was clearly separate and peripheral to their plan to work on "the" mission the following night, May 3, which was a Friday.

Smich almost seemed excited about their big May 3 plans:

• It's fireworks tomoro night (message sent May 2).
• Can marlena reach and chill with pedo while we do our thing?
• (Sends photos of the sausages and fireside furniture.)
• Can u bring me gloves and tape and maybe an orange guy?

Millard then backed out because he'd had a long day at the hangar, so Smich was basically like "Ok well holla back tomoro, I got a bunch of other missions for us to look into. I thought it was fireworks tonight but it's not yet."

The following day, May 4, Millard started booking test drives. There was a real sense of urgency from Millard to get his truck quickly, and whatever plan he and Smich had to check out the incinerator got thrown to the sideline. That's why Millard messaged Smich, "change of plans, meet up with you tomorrow (Sunday) at noon. We've got 2 appointments to make."

Basically, time was running out to get the 3500 truck, and this mission -- the mission -- was now moving forward under DM's command. Their little prep meeting originally scheduled for May 3 got tossed. I would speculate that this hastiness is why they screwed up and got caught:

• While they both knew a murder was part of the plan, they didn't get to plan the execution of it in detail. It ended up being rather improvised.
• They didn't get a chance to test the incinerator. DM wanted it to be used at the farm to keep it concealed, but they weren't able to make it work with the generator.

Basically, the gist of it from what I got, was that the infamous sausage/fireside furniture pics were part of whatever conversation they were having that night (May 2) for whatever stupid plan MS had for scoping out more "missions". The test drives hadn't even been scheduled yet, so it didn't seem like the pics were part of that truck theft plan, but part of some other stupid plan MS had up his sleeve that he wanted DM to check out.

 

[Claroon]

It's speculation to assume what "jobs" MS was made to do. AJ testified he was working at the hanger doing nothing hanger related and didn't ask questions. MM cleaned toilets. SS was his lackie, built a generator. Showed him some mechanic stuff.

I don't see where there is evidence that MS looked for the generator? That was DM and SS text. I don't see evidence that MS was involved in the vehicle swap beforehand. That was Javier and DM.

Again, I see DM all over it. I see no actual proof MS. A few texts that can be taken out of context and some online searches that others did as well. Moo

Not sure what you mean by speculating about MS's jobs. In his own testimony:
AC Tweets

• "Smich also worked for Millard doing work at his properties -- doing painting, ditch digging, etc. #TimBosma #Bosma May 11, 2016 AC
• Smich used a jackhammer while doing that construction, which he called "quite interesting."
• He also painted Millard's unit with Meneses at Riverside, Smich says. #TimBosma #Bosma May 11, 2016
• Smich also worked at the MillardAir hangar "refurbishing machinery" from the old hangar at Pearson. #TImBosma #Bosma May 11, 2016
• Smich says he was paid for that, and helping to put up walls at the hangar. #TimBosma #Bosma May 11, 2016
• Smich says work at the hangar wasn't an "everyday thing," but Millard would call when he needed him."
• Smich was working on a Cadillac of Millard's.
• Smich stayed at some of Millard's properties and didn't pay rent, he says. #TimBosma #Bosma May 17, 2016
• Smich says in return, he worked for Millard."

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Cripes??? Where did this picture come from? Need more info.

These pics are all in the evidence files. You can see them in billandrew's exhibit files.