Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[Claroon]

and the text was right in the middle of all the texts to SS looking for the BBQ generator, wasn't it?

btw, the farm is Ayr, not Waterloo. Waterloo reference I'd say is definitely the hangar.

Here are some of the interesting texts and testimony around that time:

"Twice, once on April 26 and again on April 27, Millard texts Schlatman asking 'where's the big generator.' #Bosma Mar 31, 2016

This was the one needed to run The Eliminator, Schlatman says. #Bosma Mar 31, 2016

He then asks Millard if he needs generator or just wants to know where it is. Millard responds he's stopping by, wants to know where it is. Mar 31, 2016

At 3:40 pm Schlatman texts back that yeah it's with the excavator. #Bosma Mar 31, 2016

7:02pm on April 27, Millard texts saying he can't find the generator. #Bosma Mar 31, 2016

Millard writes "unless you remember putting it back on the BBQ it should be at the hangar." #Bosma Mar 31, 2016

What's the BBQ? Crown asks. "That would be The Eliminator," Schlatman says. Says they sometimes referred to it as that. #Bosma Mar 31, 2016

Later same night, Millard asks Schlatman to check that "ether in front end loader is in good supply." #Bosma Mar 31, 2016

 

[ILoveDateline]

The way I see it is like there is a banana strawberry milkshake and two people are on video in the area it was made, and more or less admit involvement in making the milkshake. As to who put in the banana and who put in the strawberries, we don't know. We have text messages that prove they were meeting up to make the milkshake. As outsiders we see two culprits and the result--one mess of a milkshake. We know beyond reason it was them and only them that made it. Whose recipe was used, we know not. Who said when to stir, we know not.

If I were meeting my pal to make a milkshake, I'd probably ask where, when, what do I bring, what's the plan, what are we doing with it after, what if it doesn't turn out, what if we're caught midway, will we get dirty, do we need tools, etc.

When I first read this analogy, I though Ontario Mom wrote it. You two seem like kindred spirits with your stories. Love it!

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

 

[Claroon]

this is the aha moment. Both knew of the plan.

He is definitely checking out the generator, forklift, and Yukon gas problem the same time he's figuring out the BBQ.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Without going to look it up - if that is the complete testimony - there is no evidence that DM had the satchel while there is evidence that MS had his hands in his hoodie the entire time.

And there is NO evidence that DM had it either. SB and WB were engaged in conversation (as per her testimony) that it's possible either of them didn't notice. MS said they both may have pet the dog. No one mentioned that either but MS. He was probably *****ing his pants at that point and couldn't remember.

You say that MS is not telling the truth on anything because he can't remember where the gun is. Well so did MM about the "celebration". Only took her three years to remember that golden tidbit then couldn't remember what she said 9 days after that statement was made. Had to have the Crown refresh her mememory of what she said.

On cross, Sachak made a point to mention that it took her 3 years to remember "they wanted to celebrate" but forgot just 9 days later.

On cross by Dungey, she said "DM was happy" when she got into the SUV but "they both said the mission went well". Again, one day after testifying to them wanting to celebrate and we're happy in the SUV, she forgot? She only said "DM was happy" because he got the truck (mission went well).

Then we got BD, so much weed smoked his mind was in a "haze". When crossed by Dungey about the gun and the zombie bullets he agreed that it was possible that MS didn't say it that way. But excuse him, his mind was hazy from weed.

He claimed he was afraid of MS and was intimidated by him (before and after May 6th) but still hung out with him getting stoned and drunk. I know if I'm intimidated by someone, I sure as hell ain't gonna be their smoking and drinking buddy!

Point being they all lied! Including MS, I don't believe some of his testimony to be true but other parts are believable, just the same with the rest of the bandwagon. With the excellent cross by Fraser, it definitely put alot of people back on the right side of the fence of MS being guilty...including me! I don't think he shot TB but I believe he is guilty of everything else. Planning, moving the body and disposal of TB, clean up (he admitted) He wasn't afraid of DM, you don't chill or even try to contact people you are scared or terrified of (kind of like BD).

But I respect everyone's opinions. Because they are just that...opinions. No matter what we think here, we are not the jury. In the end it's only the Jury's opinion that really matter.

 

[canadiangirl]

He is definitely checking out the generator, forklift, and Yukon gas problem the same time he's figuring out the BBQ.

Which he?

 

[Claroon]

Or a noose (she didn't get along with her mom).

ha ha, but Molly Hayes said "Earrings and necklace" so I expect that is what it was.

 

[canadiangirl]

And there is NO evidence that DM had it either. SB and WB were engaged in conversation (as per her testimony) that it's possible either of them didn't notice. MS said they both may have pet the dog. No one mentioned that either but MS. He was probably *****ing his pants at that point and couldn't remember.

You say that MS is not telling the truth on anything because he can't remember where the gun is. Well so did MM about the "celebration". Only took her three years to remember that golden tidbit then couldn't remember what she said 9 days after that statement was made. Had to have the Crown refresh her mememory of what she said.

On cross, Sachak made a point to mention that it took her 3 years to remember "they wanted to celebrate" but forgot just 9 days later.

On cross by Dungey, she said "DM was happy" when she got into the SUV but "they both said the mission went well". Again, one day after testifying to them wanting to celebrate and we're happy in the SUV, she forgot? She only said "DM was happy" because he got the truck (mission went well).

Then we got BD, so much weed smoked his mind was in a "haze". When crossed by Dungey about the gun and the zombie bullets he agreed that it was possible that MS didn't say it that way. But excuse him, his mind was hazy from weed.

He claimed he was afraid of MS and was intimidated by him (before and after May 6th) but still hung out with him getting stoned and drunk. I know if I'm intimidated by someone, I sure as hell ain't gonna be their smoking and drinking buddy!

Point being they all lied! Including MS, I don't believe some of his testimony to be true but other parts are believable, just the same with the rest of the bandwagon. With the excellent cross by Fraser, it definitely put alot of people back on the right side of the fence of MS being guilty...including me! I don't think he shot TB but I believe he is guilty of everything else. Planning, moving the body and disposal of TB, clean up (he admitted) He wasn't afraid of DM, you don't chill or even try to contact people you are scared or terrified of (kind of like BD).

But I respect everyone's opinions. Because they are just that...opinions. No matter what we think here, we are not the jury. In the end it's only the Jury's opinion that really matter.

Very well said.

 

[Claroon]

How could he prove he didn't use the gun other then to say he didn't?

He could be more willing to give more info about the gun's whereabouts, even if it's just the most probable park area.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

And there is NO evidence that DM had it either. SB and WB were engaged in conversation (as per her testimony) that it's possible either of them didn't notice. MS said they both may have pet the dog. No one mentioned that either but MS. He was probably *****ing his pants at that point and couldn't remember.

You say that MS is not telling the truth on anything because he can't remember where the gun is. Well so did MM about the "celebration". Only took her three years to remember that golden tidbit then couldn't remember what she said 9 days after that statement was made. Had to have the Crown refresh her mememory of what she said.

On cross, Sachak made a point to mention that it took her 3 years to remember "they wanted to celebrate" but forgot just 9 days later.

On cross by Dungey, she said "DM was happy" when she got into the SUV but "they both said the mission went well". Again, one day after testifying to them wanting to celebrate and we're happy in the SUV, she forgot? She only said "DM was happy" because he got the truck (mission went well).

Then we got BD, so much weed smoked his mind was in a "haze". When crossed by Dungey about the gun and the zombie bullets he agreed that it was possible that MS didn't say it that way. But excuse him, his mind was hazy from weed.

He claimed he was afraid of MS and was intimidated by him (before and after May 6th) but still hung out with him getting stoned and drunk. I know if I'm intimidated by someone, I sure as hell ain't gonna be their smoking and drinking buddy!

Point being they all lied! Including MS, I don't believe some of his testimony to be true but other parts are believable, just the same with the rest of the bandwagon. With the excellent cross by Fraser, it definitely put alot of people back on the right side of the fence of MS being guilty...including me! I don't think he shot TB but I believe he is guilty of everything else. Planning, moving the body and disposal of TB, clean up (he admitted) He wasn't afraid of DM, you don't chill or even try to contact people you are scared or terrified of (kind of like BD).

But I respect everyone's opinions. Because they are just that...opinions. No matter what we think here, we are not the jury. In the end it's only the Jury's opinion that really matter.

This is what I mean - if we just assume every piece of evidence about MS is a lie or a mis-statement, then there is no way he's guilty.

And BBM - isn't that the exact reason MS gave for hanging around with DM after the murder.

 

[hellkat2]

A couple of thoughts on the gun:
- Do we know how many total guns were acquired? Sounds like at least two in 2012, but one was presumably confiscated by LE after WM was found. It also sounds as if at least one gun was acquired for DM and one for MS (DM paying for all). If (one of) DM's gun(s) were used on WM, and there were 2 total, then the 'MS weapon' was used against TB. This fits BD's testimony that it was MS's gun. I still wonder if there were still 2 guns remaining at the time of the TB murder. Then MS would have gotten rid of both and that's why he requires amnesia about the guns. Also, why wouldn't DM replace the gun lost to LE after his father's death (otherwise only MS has a gun, unless DM took it back from MS at that point)
- If DM was trying to frame MS by tricking him into taking the gun from MH, how could he ensure that MS kept the gun (in MS's one gun scenario)? If I'm a scheming DM, how could I ensure that MS was actually caught with it? He couldn't know that MS would open the toolbox in front of someone, or that he would talk about the gun. He'd also have to assume that MS would try to get rid of it.

I do not recall a gun being lost to LE after his father's death. Was that mentioned somewhere? I just assumed that his father used a gun of his own as it was thought to be a suicide.

 

[Claroon]

I don't really think it was their plan to use the gun till they got to the farm, but I think they both knew the plan and it doesn't matter whose gun it was or who pulled the trigger. And I do t think they made a lame excuse to Tim at the corner either. They probably disabled him on the test drive and then went to the field to pick up the Yukon. Are there any discrepancies with this scenario?

Where I'm confused is when the crown presented witnesses at first, the witness highlighted the sound of 2 bangs at Bobcat. They played the video 3 times for all to re-watch. A strong implication of a possible gun shot there. Then on final day, crown went back to the theory that things happened in the field. That kind of surprised me.

Even so, it all went down in about 45 min so that is very soon after going on the supposed test drive. That is all very quick.

 

[Claroon]

As everyone has stated having the actual gun now, proves nothing

But refusing to give it up makes him suspect. IMO

 

[hellkat2]

Interesting that you bring up BD. Was it him or Hagerman that mentioned "but then lies were told"?? I think they're all liars when it suits them. Since MS was already arrested and presumably not in contact with BD and MH, which one was telling the lies and what exactly were they lying about? Lying about MS or DM or something else?

I wondered if he meant "lies were told" and was referencing LE. DM mentioned in one of CN's letters that LE was intimidating Hagerman and Michalski by telling them they were being charged with stuff and this caused them to make statements.

 

[Claroon]

We don't know the original plan. But again back to a text messages sealing someone's fate.

Sorry you feel that way. There was tonnes of evidence on the entire "mission" from professionals I respect. There was hard work of LE that we will never know, but we have to trust. There was testimony from friends. There were their own incriminating photos and texts and MS's story--it's a lot more than merely text messages. IMO. Is there another reason other than justice that you are so very sentimental about MS's fate?

 

[CJPRINCESS]

This is what I mean - if we just assume every piece of evidence about MS is a lie or a mis-statement, then there is no way he's guilty.

And BBM - isn't that the exact reason MS gave for hanging around with DM after the murder.

Im not dismissing anything just pointing out testimony. With the new texts that came up during Frasers' cross. The contact made BY MS to DM, that isn't someone that's afraid or terrified. IMO, that should cross out some of the contradicting testimony.

No, not quite. MS said he was just playing along with DM not to arouse suspicion. He really didn't want anything to do with DM or the situation, he says. Then those lovely texts and calls were brought forth..the ones MS initiated. Inquiry of how things were going. If I remember correctly the one enquiry was the truck moving night.

I haven't picked on DM because his beautiful, heart filled letters said it all for him. If those letter didn't come forth, I'm sure there'd be a 50/50 split on who did what. IMO, Those letters put his nail in the coffin and the hole dug.

 

[Claroon]

I am wondering if the following comes into play in this thread when discussing the evidence?

The CSI effect, also known as the CSI syndrome[1] and the CSI infection,[2] is any of several ways in which the exaggerated portrayal of forensic science on crime television shows such as CSI: Crime Scene Investigation influences public perception. The term most often refers to the belief that jurors have come to demand more forensic evidence in criminal trials, thereby raising the effective standard of proof for prosecutors. While this belief is widely held among American legal professionals, some studies have suggested that crime shows are unlikely to cause such an effect, although frequent CSI viewers may place a lower value on circumstantial evidence.[3] As technology improves and becomes more prevalent throughout society, people may also develop higher expectations for the capabilities of forensic technology.[4]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect

What are your thoughts?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Of course. And there is so much story here that it plays like a movie so people expect all of this is "foreshadowing" and the real story will eventually be revealed as on a TV show. In the past, people have been put away with much much less evidence and certainly no DNA testing at the time.

 

[ILoveDateline]

I wondered if he meant "lies were told" and was referencing LE. DM mentioned in one of CN's letters that LE was intimidating Hagerman and Michalski by telling them they were being charged with stuff and this caused them to make statements.

I'm quite certain the lies referred to here are from AM. I feel strongly that the discussion on may 4 on whose truck to steal, the nice guy or the a-hole, in front of AM and MM, would have lead to the question, how are you going to do that? And maybe a shiny piece was that answer. In any case, I don't see DM dropping off a toolbox of drugs at 4am without questions. I would bet my house that "..." means a gun. AM and MH refused to drop the drugs and toolbox to MS and so I think k there was a lot of info shared in that 12hrs between DMs arrest and the drop off. Both AM and MH were not truthful with police for many statements. They just couldn't see eye to eye on what lies and truths to tell. MH seemed genuinely torn up when on the stand as to his involvement in this. All JMO.

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

 

[canadiangirl]

Sorry you feel that way. There was tonnes of evidence on the entire "mission" from professionals I respect. There was hard work of LE that we will never know, but we have to trust. There was testimony from friends. There were their own incriminating photos and texts and MS's story--it's a lot more than merely text messages. IMO. Is there another reason other than justice that you are so very sentimental about MS's fate?

I believe you answered your question right there. In YOUR opinion. I'm answering questions people are asking as to why I think differently. I'm not the only one who feels there isn't enough evidence or are on the fence if you've read what I've actually said. Others have voiced the same.

So that makes me very sentimental of MS fate? Why is it if someone has an opinion that doesn't follow the "pack" or doesn't see things the same way, we must have a secret reason to feel this way? I've been here since day 1 - the day after Tim went missing. A friend of mine knows the Bosma's actually which is how I initially learned Tim was missing. (I have never met them myself). And not that I even need to explain why I'm here.

A few people have mentioned they haven't wanted to post here for this very reason. Judged for having their own minds and being accused of having underlying reasons for not seeing what others see? I can see why they feel this way, quite frankly I find your accusation uncalled for.

 

[Claroon]

=canadiangirl;12591621]I guess we'll find out... I'm not looking to be right or to convince anyone of anything. I just don't see a first degree murder conviction. Maybe closing arguments will change that.

I just don't see a first degree murder conviction.

Does it help you if I say we get the point. I accept that you don't see a first degree conviction. That is your right to not see a first degree conviction. I understand you feel text messages are not enough for a first degree conviction and that you feel that is the only thing being weighed. I doubt you're about to change your mind anytime soon about seeing a first degree conviction, so what will be will be.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

We don't know the original plan. But again back to a text messages sealing someone's fate.

It isn't only their text messages, it is all the evidence ... combined it shows planning and their complicitness. If it doesn't then it must be a series of unfortunate coincidences. It is highly unlikely that the latter is the case.

We don't know the original plan, and never will. But we can certainly infer what their plan was via a mountain of evidence and their actions.

IMO, they have both sealed their own fates.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk