Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[hellkat2]

Sure except if he took his hands out of his pockets to pet the dog, which I don't recall if that was an actual fact or not but it was brought up.

You can hide a gun under your shirt in the waistband of your jeans easy enough. A bulky hoodie doesn't prove anything IMO.

All I see is speculation.

MS looked like the grim reaper in that hoodie. I don't think most would put a loaded gun in the waistband of their jeans. That is a good way to blow something off yourself. IMO

 

[hellkat2]

How could he prove he didn't use the gun other then to say he didn't?

He could always prove that he did.

 

[Arnie M]

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I would not be surprised if there are a lot of intertwining pieces that will come together in the next 2 trials .... death of WM ... disappearance of LB .... incinerator(s) .... gun(s) ... things like that .... and the evidence has to be withheld until then .... (cannot be brought up at the TB trial , even thought there may be some overlap)

 

[canadiangirl]

MS looked like the grim reaper in that hoodie. I don't think most would put a loaded gun in the waistband of their jeans. That is a good way to blow something off yourself. IMO

Haha I would hope the safety would be on?

 

[brightii]

People very often do attempt to hide or dispose of a body after a killing to escape detection, so thinking of the incinerator as cruel and gruesome as it is actually wouldn't be a showstopper for me in believing this was 2nd degree murder or manslaughter. However my real sticking point is that I just can't get my head around the Crown's argument. People are sadly murdered every day, and only very, very, very few of them are murdered by thrill killers working in pairs. In a sense it's an extraordinary claim that falls just short of needing extraordinary proof. Add to that that it is allegedly thrill killers with a very specific plan to steal a truck and murder an owner...that they don't enact for 10 months? It remains a difficult theory to grasp for me. It's possible, and this is why I asked my mini-poll question, that the incinerator didn't start as part of a murder plan but somewhere along the way evolved into one, whether as part of a premeditated plan, an plan for exigent circumstances, or something improvised after a robbery gone bad.

Yes people are murdered, but not so often as it may sometimes seem. How many criminals, whether they be thieves or drug dealers own an incinerator? None that I've ever heard of, and while I suppose it's possible that there are others, that horrid contraption is a very rare item for anyone to own, IMO. It was never used for anything other than disposing of bodies IMO and with all the various stories about its intended or possible use by different witnesses, IMO that is a fact that has been established beyond any reasonable doubt.

Had the Eliminator been purchased or used for a legitimate purpose all those who saw it, researched it, questioned it, would have been told one consistent story about it, IMO. Everyone who testified about it was uncomfortable talking about it and why DM needed an incinerator, and if it was such an innocuous item, why were all the witnesses squirming in their seats and being evasive in their answers about it? Why did DM get the receipt for the Eliminator and have it with him in the Yukon on the day he was arrested? Why was the incinerator often kept hidden away at DM's farm? He and MS had just incinerated TB and DM and MS both knew then and know now that there was no reasonable purpose for its use by either of them, IMO.

DM told LW2 that he had invested 5 full days over a year into trying to trade his vehicle for a diesel. Presumably he wanted LW2 to understand that he was working on a legitimate trade or purchase, so to me it is not so unusual that DM would likewise spend a lot of time planning a mission to steal one. He seemed to think that having spent 5 days - and over the period of a year - was quite the investment of his time and energy. I recall reading his text to LW2 and thinking how out of touch DM is with reality.

MS and DM found one another, and over time and through testing one another's limits, they discovered that they were both interested in taking things further in terms of the crimes they would do together. I do think that they are a rare coupling, but nonetheless, they were compatible in their intentions and abilities to seek out together the ultimate thrill, power and control that they each experienced together by killing other human beings. I don't understand either of them or their individual motivations completely, but IMO they each have convinced me by their own words and actions that they had in each other met their match, and together they were prepared to strike it to destroy the lives of others.

All MOO.

 

[hellkat2]

Ok that's your opinion. So there's no way that it could've been tucked into DM's waistband on the left side as we all know he's left handed. Gets in the truck and since the left side means drivers side door, TB would be none the wiser if he pulled it out and shot him on the spot.

Yes this is a possibility. But not a probability IMO for all the reasons I have stated elsewhere.

 

[hellkat2]

They went to the hangar because the incinerator needs electricity to run the fans and there was no electricity at the farm.

And for some reason DM was asking one of his gang of thieves as to the location of it. One more f up.

 

[hellkat2]

I think that was the point Crimeinthe6ix was trying to make .... the picture he posted was much more artistic than the MS ones .... which makes it highly unlikely MS did it.

For comparison here is an MS example

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Didn't MS have a lot to do with his time.

 

[hellkat2]

DM would plant the gun (his prints wiped) beside his father's body to make it look like suicide. He would have to hope that LE would assume that WM could purchase a gun if he really wanted to.

LE would look to see who the gun was registered to.

 

[brightii]

There's no way I'm going to catch up on all the discussion since I also decided to take a break but I wanted to comment on this. I honestly can't pinpoint one thing about MS's testimony that seemed believable (for the most part) to me, but it did. In some ways, it still does. In others, not so much. Despite who/what he may seem to be like now, on May 6, 2013 was clearly a horrible human being doing horrible things.

That was part of the reason I decided to take a break and clear my head and wait for the closing arguments that tie everything together. There are so many variables, details, people, liars, etc., going on in this case, it's just too easy to find yourself (for me anyway) going down a rabbit trail & losing sight of the bigger picture. I'm very much looking forward to the next few days. Mostly because it's the beginning of the end of this wretched chapter for the Bosma family, but also because I think it's going to cross every T and dot every I.

moo - fwiw

FWIW your opinion counts just as much as everyone else's. When the verdicts come in you and canadiangirl and JuneBug67 and ArianeEmory, among others who have reasonable doubt about MS may just be right in the end if the jury comes back with a verdict that reflects such reasonable doubt. I hope not but it is very possible!

I hate to see anyone feeling badly about their indecision or about sharing their honest opinions because it just feels alienating. I do hope the jury will bring back guilty verdicts for both MS and DM, but that's because I believe they are guilty. The jury may not agree with me and those who think like me.

I've always appreciated the differing viewpoints on this forum and you and others who are uncertain about MS contribute a lot to the discussions. I think we're all just very tired of debating, especially when it's not always easy to articulate why we think as we do, and we're all very anxious for the verdicts and for this very emotionally draining trial to be done with.

All MOO.

 

[canadiangirl]

LE would look to see who the gun was registered to.

Ummm. I don't know a whole lot about guns but it really doesn't seem to me this group and especially isho would register a gun. Moo

 

[Abitcountry]

I think that was the point Crimeinthe6ix was trying to make .... the picture he posted was much more artistic than the MS ones .... which makes it highly unlikely MS did it.

For comparison here is an MS example

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Arnie, do you think he was always signing like this photo.....especially the z-like s ???

The tag shown in the photo of the overpass does not look like the one I saw on the train car......seems there's lots of SAY10's around---who knew !!!

 

[hellkat2]

As we all are, I am waiting for the final arguments and Justice Goodman's charge to the jury before making my personal decision.

As this is the eve of closing arguments, I wanted to share my personal thoughts based upon all the evidence and testimony.

You are sure to notice amongst my comments many other points which have already been made by other WSers. I hope you don't mind me mentioning them here. And I thank you for sharing them on WS.

And please also keep in mind that I will be paraphrasing to some extent here, because I am unable to copy/paste direct quotes.

First of all, prior to this case, DM and MS were criminals. They both were thieves. They also shared a very close bond. And I don't consider the theft of some of the higher priced items to be petty at all. Other hard-working people were out of pocket thousands of dollars because of them.

Yet, because DM and MS were just going to take anything they wanted from the source, they felt entitled to do that, and really ENJOYED it. Both bought/sold/gifted drugs, which is also criminal activity. They were excited about their missions, and ONE MISSION in particular, which required extra planning because they didn't want to get it wrong.

And they purchased at least one illegal loaded gun. They both held it in their hand and took a picture of it. And DM 5-fingered (stole) bullets so MS could practice with them. It is obvious that this delighted them.

So far, their characters show a complete disinterest in working legitimate jobs, and saving up to buy the things they want. It is much easier and fun for them to plan a mission to steal something. They couldn't care less about the consequences that the people/companies they stole from faced. It was just a game to them ... A criminal game.

By their very nature, criminals performing criminal acts, deny their involvement, point fingers, and try their best to leave behind as little evidence as possible.

Therefore, it is no surprise, sad as it might be, that some people believe that investigators should be able to find all or most of the evidence in order to convict. Which is, of course, an impossibility due to the innate nature of crime and criminals because the last thing they want to do is get caught. So they get rid of whatever evidence they can.

I also believe that the "CSI Effect" has potential to set some people's expectations of evidence to an insurmountable, unreasonable bar.

Then we have DM and MS involved together in the research, planning, moving the Eliminator. It's only value is to cremate livestock, although there are no livestock on the farm ... Not pets ... Not garbage. At $23,000, that is a huge investment, and if DM had any legitimate purpose for purchasing it, I have racked my brain and decided it could only possibly be to burn human remains. If he had been a more reasonable type of person, he could have bought his 3500 rather than the eliminator. But, being a criminal with a sense of entitlement and a sick and twisted mind, the livestock incinerator becomes a very important purchase for him, and it was purchased very quickly. I am certain he would have stole one if he could, but they simply aren't plentiful. He desperately wanted one ASAP, and IMHO it was a killing machine, part of their plan to steal and murder at the same time because multiple successful thefts had lessened the thrill they had experienced. Their theft thrills were now escalating to murder. Just a game ... Just a mission for the two of them to accomplish.

As far as MS's testimony goes, as others have explained in a much better fashion, is obvious to me that when he chose to to be forthcoming in his testimony, it was to fit into the evidence/testimony that had already been introduced, and only to put himself in a better light. He either lied, or gave versions of "I can't remember". I am sorry but during the questioning about conversations he had with Millard when they had spent days and hours together during planning their mission, murdering Tim, and all the disposing of evidence of murder, moving various things, etc., etc., it is beyond belief that they didn't talk about anything to do with what had happened. He didn't need to recite it verbatim, but he could certainly have told the gist of it. Therefore, I give MS's testimony very little weight.

I won't go into all the texts messages here, because they have already been outlined and reasoned perfectly by billandrew and others. I personally give them a great deal of weight in context. They are cryptic for a reason, because they can't be open and honest while texting about nefarious things, but I certainly believe that reasonably and most likely, given all the other evidence, they have tremendous evidentiary value and are extremely damning.

DM's version of what happened that night I take with a single grain of salt because it was only a suggested possibility by Sachak.

For me, Dellen's jailhouse letters were telling in many ways.

A burner phone was purchased, and only used to contact potential victims of their mission.

I am surprised whenever I read that some aspects of the Crown's case are considered weak. Perhaps the CSI Effect again?

LE has truly shone in this case. They were extremely diligent and dedicated in collecting-interpreting what was most likely all the evidence that was left behind by WS and DM. That is quite a feat, based upon the inherent traits of criminals.

There is a mountain of evidence against DM and MS. So much more compelling evidence than has ever been given in the majority of trials that I have closely followed.

I am certain to be missing many of my other reasons for arriving at my personal conclusion, but the whole picture to me is as clear as a bell. WS and DM are both guilty of 1st degree murder, and that doesn't even take into consideration the issue of forcible confinement, which I am not yet sure has been removed from the table.

Thank you for reading/listening and sharing all your thoughts and theories.

As always, MHO.










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Well stated.

 

[musicaljoke]

How about the necklace picture? We didn't see that either. It was MM'S comment of almost disgust that made me think it was more then fine jewelry.

Paraphrasing here:
MS sends a pic of a necklace to MM and says "for your mother"
MM replies "MARK!!!"

Not the typical response I'd give my hubby for doing something nice for my mother.

Just an example of how things can get misread when not seen. It also may have well been a beautiful gold and diamond necklace or something awfully gross or something he was going to steal from a store.

A "pearl necklace" is a term for when a man ejaculates on a woman's chest. I think this might be the meaning of the inside joke between these two.

 

[canadiangirl]

A "pearl necklace" is a term for when a man ejaculates on a woman's chest. I think this might be the meaning of the inside joke between these two.

But notice MM was classy enough not to say this in court lol

 

[hellkat2]

Going to avoid quoting for space, but thanks for the post Mrs. Threadgood

I don't think the Crown has a weak case, but what has thrown me is that to me they have taken a strong case and made the weakest possible argument from it. The thrill killers lying in 10 month wait really threw me for a loop...I didn't expect them to go there. To make murder and incineration in and of itself a goal. That tack surprised me and I didn't have a sense of it until the cross of MS. It almost felt like it was crafted specifically as an evolved theory in case MS had made some headway with the jury. We saw new texts emerge to support it. People rightly point out that MS and DM have crafted versions to fit the known evidence, but make no mistake that the Crown crafts too. This is an adversarial system and each side desires to win.

My money is on the crown.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Going to avoid quoting for space, but thanks for the post Mrs. Threadgood

I don't think the Crown has a weak case, but what has thrown me is that to me they have taken a strong case and made the weakest possible argument from it. The thrill killers lying in 10 month wait really threw me for a loop...I didn't expect them to go there. To make murder and incineration in and of itself a goal. That tack surprised me and I didn't have a sense of it until the cross of MS. It almost felt like it was crafted specifically as an evolved theory in case MS had made some headway with the jury. We saw new texts emerge to support it. People rightly point out that MS and DM have crafted versions to fit the known evidence, but make no mistake that the Crown crafts too. This is an adversarial system and each side desires to win.

Thank you!

It is very interesting to read so many varied perspectives and interpretations of the evidence and testimony.

I am looking forward to the closing arguments and Justice Goodman's charge, and then reading the various perspectives after that.


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[hellkat2]

Ummm. I don't know a whole lot about guns but it really doesn't seem to me this group and especially isho would register a gun. Moo

LE would have difficulty with the gun if it wasn't registered I would say.

 

[hellkat2]

A "pearl necklace" is a term for when a man ejaculates on a woman's chest. I think this might be the meaning of the inside joke between these two.

Didn't MS suggest that his beloved MM become a stripper? Nothing surprises me about say10. Pathetic . I wonder whether the picture he sent to MM of the pearl necklace was a selfie?

 

[Typhoo1961]

LE would have difficulty with the gun if it wasn't registered I would say.

Can you elaborate on this? What sort of difficulty?