DM would plant the gun (his prints wiped) beside his father's body to make it look like suicide. He would have to hope that LE would assume that WM could purchase a gun if he really wanted to.
Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16
- Thread starter Sillybilly
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Exactly. The proof is in the pudding as they say.
IMO whether it is technically first degree or not, they are going down for a long long long time.
Arnie M
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Yes Bill , propane tanks have to be stored in an outside ventilated area or enclosure , but I suspect if DM was going to be in the victim burning business he would do it at the farm and use the generator.
The parts that are suspect for me are as follows (also I saw 2 versions of her obit posted):
"She later became an esthetician, which she practiced until her cancer operation in November 2006." (Who says that?)
"Elizabeth was a gentle and kind soul. She had great empathy for animals, which likely started with her devotion to her childhood pony "Chico", who she still spoke of in her final years. Her Elizabeth Glass Animal Welfare Foundation was established to offer help to injured or abandoned urban wildlife. Members of the Glass and Joel Family are invited to call Elizabeth's executor at 416-695-2521". (I believe this was DM's home phone number.)
"There are family photos and mementos which should be passed on within family." DOD May 19, 2009
copyright link http://yourlifemoments.ca/sitepages/obituary.asp?oid=503761
People very often do attempt to hide or dispose of a body after a killing to escape detection, so thinking of the incinerator as cruel and gruesome as it is actually wouldn't be a showstopper for me in believing this was 2nd degree murder or manslaughter. However my real sticking point is that I just can't get my head around the Crown's argument. People are sadly murdered every day, and only very, very, very few of them are murdered by thrill killers working in pairs. In a sense it's an extraordinary claim that falls just short of needing extraordinary proof. Add to that that it is allegedly thrill killers with a very specific plan to steal a truck and murder an owner...that they don't enact for 10 months? It remains a difficult theory to grasp for me. It's possible, and this is why I asked my mini-poll question, that the incinerator didn't start as part of a murder plan but somewhere along the way evolved into one, whether as part of a premeditated plan, an plan for exigent circumstances, or something improvised after a robbery gone bad.
Except for the incinerator I cannot get around that. The effed up comment was because he made more of a mess that he had intended. Used wrong bullets for gun or wrong gun. Or was not as precise as he had intended and shot out the window or had to shoot twice .......but not in my opinion an robbery gone wrong. I used to think like you but not anymore.
MrsThreadgoode
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As we all are, I am waiting for the final arguments and Justice Goodman's charge to the jury before making my personal decision.
As this is the eve of closing arguments, I wanted to share my personal thoughts based upon all the evidence and testimony.
You are sure to notice amongst my comments many other points which have already been made by other WSers. I hope you don't mind me mentioning them here. And I thank you for sharing them on WS.
And please also keep in mind that I will be paraphrasing to some extent here, because I am unable to copy/paste direct quotes.
First of all, prior to this case, DM and MS were criminals. They both were thieves. They also shared a very close bond. And I don't consider the theft of some of the higher priced items to be petty at all. Other hard-working people were out of pocket thousands of dollars because of them.
Yet, because DM and MS were just going to take anything they wanted from the source, they felt entitled to do that, and really ENJOYED it. Both bought/sold/gifted drugs, which is also criminal activity. They were excited about their missions, and ONE MISSION in particular, which required extra planning because they didn't want to get it wrong.
And they purchased at least one illegal loaded gun. They both held it in their hand and took a picture of it. And DM 5-fingered (stole) bullets so MS could practice with them. It is obvious that this delighted them.
So far, their characters show a complete disinterest in working legitimate jobs, and saving up to buy the things they want. It is much easier and fun for them to plan a mission to steal something. They couldn't care less about the consequences that the people/companies they stole from faced. It was just a game to them ... A criminal game.
By their very nature, criminals performing criminal acts, deny their involvement, point fingers, and try their best to leave behind as little evidence as possible.
Therefore, it is no surprise, sad as it might be, that some people believe that investigators should be able to find all or most of the evidence in order to convict. Which is, of course, an impossibility due to the innate nature of crime and criminals because the last thing they want to do is get caught. So they get rid of whatever evidence they can.
I also believe that the "CSI Effect" has potential to set some people's expectations of evidence to an insurmountable, unreasonable bar.
Then we have DM and MS involved together in the research, planning, moving the Eliminator. It's only value is to cremate livestock, although there are no livestock on the farm ... Not pets ... Not garbage. At $23,000, that is a huge investment, and if DM had any legitimate purpose for purchasing it, I have racked my brain and decided it could only possibly be to burn human remains. If he had been a more reasonable type of person, he could have bought his 3500 rather than the eliminator. But, being a criminal with a sense of entitlement and a sick and twisted mind, the livestock incinerator becomes a very important purchase for him, and it was purchased very quickly. I am certain he would have stole one if he could, but they simply aren't plentiful. He desperately wanted one ASAP, and IMHO it was a killing machine, part of their plan to steal and murder at the same time because multiple successful thefts had lessened the thrill they had experienced. Their theft thrills were now escalating to murder. Just a game ... Just a mission for the two of them to accomplish.
As far as MS's testimony goes, as others have explained in a much better fashion, is obvious to me that when he chose to to be forthcoming in his testimony, it was to fit into the evidence/testimony that had already been introduced, and only to put himself in a better light. He either lied, or gave versions of "I can't remember". I am sorry but during the questioning about conversations he had with Millard when they had spent days and hours together during planning their mission, murdering Tim, and all the disposing of evidence of murder, moving various things, etc., etc., it is beyond belief that they didn't talk about anything to do with what had happened. He didn't need to recite it verbatim, but he could certainly have told the gist of it. Therefore, I give MS's testimony very little weight.
I won't go into all the texts messages here, because they have already been outlined and reasoned perfectly by billandrew and others. I personally give them a great deal of weight in context. They are cryptic for a reason, because they can't be open and honest while texting about nefarious things, but I certainly believe that reasonably and most likely, given all the other evidence, they have tremendous evidentiary value and are extremely damning.
DM's version of what happened that night I take with a single grain of salt because it was only a suggested possibility by Sachak.
For me, Dellen's jailhouse letters were telling in many ways.
A burner phone was purchased, and only used to contact potential victims of their mission.
I am surprised whenever I read that some aspects of the Crown's case are considered weak. Perhaps the CSI Effect again?
LE has truly shone in this case. They were extremely diligent and dedicated in collecting-interpreting what was most likely all the evidence that was left behind by WS and DM. That is quite a feat, based upon the inherent traits of criminals.
There is a mountain of evidence against DM and MS. So much more compelling evidence than has ever been given in the majority of trials that I have closely followed.
I am certain to be missing many of my other reasons for arriving at my personal conclusion, but the whole picture to me is as clear as a bell. WS and DM are both guilty of 1st degree murder, and that doesn't even take into consideration the issue of forcible confinement, which I am not yet sure has been removed from the table.
Thank you for reading/listening and sharing all your thoughts and theories.
As always, MHO.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
As this is the eve of closing arguments, I wanted to share my personal thoughts based upon all the evidence and testimony.
You are sure to notice amongst my comments many other points which have already been made by other WSers. I hope you don't mind me mentioning them here. And I thank you for sharing them on WS.
And please also keep in mind that I will be paraphrasing to some extent here, because I am unable to copy/paste direct quotes.
First of all, prior to this case, DM and MS were criminals. They both were thieves. They also shared a very close bond. And I don't consider the theft of some of the higher priced items to be petty at all. Other hard-working people were out of pocket thousands of dollars because of them.
Yet, because DM and MS were just going to take anything they wanted from the source, they felt entitled to do that, and really ENJOYED it. Both bought/sold/gifted drugs, which is also criminal activity. They were excited about their missions, and ONE MISSION in particular, which required extra planning because they didn't want to get it wrong.
And they purchased at least one illegal loaded gun. They both held it in their hand and took a picture of it. And DM 5-fingered (stole) bullets so MS could practice with them. It is obvious that this delighted them.
So far, their characters show a complete disinterest in working legitimate jobs, and saving up to buy the things they want. It is much easier and fun for them to plan a mission to steal something. They couldn't care less about the consequences that the people/companies they stole from faced. It was just a game to them ... A criminal game.
By their very nature, criminals performing criminal acts, deny their involvement, point fingers, and try their best to leave behind as little evidence as possible.
Therefore, it is no surprise, sad as it might be, that some people believe that investigators should be able to find all or most of the evidence in order to convict. Which is, of course, an impossibility due to the innate nature of crime and criminals because the last thing they want to do is get caught. So they get rid of whatever evidence they can.
I also believe that the "CSI Effect" has potential to set some people's expectations of evidence to an insurmountable, unreasonable bar.
Then we have DM and MS involved together in the research, planning, moving the Eliminator. It's only value is to cremate livestock, although there are no livestock on the farm ... Not pets ... Not garbage. At $23,000, that is a huge investment, and if DM had any legitimate purpose for purchasing it, I have racked my brain and decided it could only possibly be to burn human remains. If he had been a more reasonable type of person, he could have bought his 3500 rather than the eliminator. But, being a criminal with a sense of entitlement and a sick and twisted mind, the livestock incinerator becomes a very important purchase for him, and it was purchased very quickly. I am certain he would have stole one if he could, but they simply aren't plentiful. He desperately wanted one ASAP, and IMHO it was a killing machine, part of their plan to steal and murder at the same time because multiple successful thefts had lessened the thrill they had experienced. Their theft thrills were now escalating to murder. Just a game ... Just a mission for the two of them to accomplish.
As far as MS's testimony goes, as others have explained in a much better fashion, is obvious to me that when he chose to to be forthcoming in his testimony, it was to fit into the evidence/testimony that had already been introduced, and only to put himself in a better light. He either lied, or gave versions of "I can't remember". I am sorry but during the questioning about conversations he had with Millard when they had spent days and hours together during planning their mission, murdering Tim, and all the disposing of evidence of murder, moving various things, etc., etc., it is beyond belief that they didn't talk about anything to do with what had happened. He didn't need to recite it verbatim, but he could certainly have told the gist of it. Therefore, I give MS's testimony very little weight.
I won't go into all the texts messages here, because they have already been outlined and reasoned perfectly by billandrew and others. I personally give them a great deal of weight in context. They are cryptic for a reason, because they can't be open and honest while texting about nefarious things, but I certainly believe that reasonably and most likely, given all the other evidence, they have tremendous evidentiary value and are extremely damning.
DM's version of what happened that night I take with a single grain of salt because it was only a suggested possibility by Sachak.
For me, Dellen's jailhouse letters were telling in many ways.
A burner phone was purchased, and only used to contact potential victims of their mission.
I am surprised whenever I read that some aspects of the Crown's case are considered weak. Perhaps the CSI Effect again?
LE has truly shone in this case. They were extremely diligent and dedicated in collecting-interpreting what was most likely all the evidence that was left behind by WS and DM. That is quite a feat, based upon the inherent traits of criminals.
There is a mountain of evidence against DM and MS. So much more compelling evidence than has ever been given in the majority of trials that I have closely followed.
I am certain to be missing many of my other reasons for arriving at my personal conclusion, but the whole picture to me is as clear as a bell. WS and DM are both guilty of 1st degree murder, and that doesn't even take into consideration the issue of forcible confinement, which I am not yet sure has been removed from the table.
Thank you for reading/listening and sharing all your thoughts and theories.
As always, MHO.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Ontario Mom
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There's no way I'm going to catch up on all the discussion since I also decided to take a break but I wanted to comment on this. I honestly can't pinpoint one thing about MS's testimony that seemed believable (for the most part) to me, but it did. In some ways, it still does. In others, not so much. Despite who/what he may seem to be like now, on May 6, 2013 was clearly a horrible human being doing horrible things.
That was part of the reason I decided to take a break and clear my head and wait for the closing arguments that tie everything together. There are so many variables, details, people, liars, etc., going on in this case, it's just too easy to find yourself (for me anyway) going down a rabbit trail & losing sight of the bigger picture. I'm very much looking forward to the next few days. Mostly because it's the beginning of the end of this wretched chapter for the Bosma family, but also because I think it's going to cross every T and dot every I.
moo - fwiw
I do not believe that DM got a text from his friends from Tim Hortons. MS and DM in my opinion did not have to come up with anything because the plan was to kill TBand he was shot with no warning by MS from the back seat of the TB's truck as planned. No need to make up anything to TB because he was dead. Then they pulled into where the Yukon was parked. The "I f'd up" statement is because they had not intended on an extensive clean up.
Or the necklace was something that was obviously stolen.
IMO it does not matter that there may have been one gun....the important thing is that it was a plan that they both participated in. I think that has been established.
They did not have to tell TB anything. I don't believe that they told him anything. Remember this is what lying MS said. I do not believe him. He is saying this as part of his plan to remove himself from the vehicle and say that the shooting happened after he got in to the YUKON. This story that MS told was illogical.
I do not believe that DM got a text from his friends from Tim Hortons. MS and DM in my opinion did not have to come up with anything because the plan was to kill TBand he was shot with no warning by MS from the back seat of the TB's truck as planned. No need to make up anything to TB because he was dead. Then they pulled into where the Yukon was parked. The "I f'd up" statement is because they had not intended on an extensive clean up.
Going to avoid quoting for space, but thanks for the post Mrs. Threadgood 
I don't think the Crown has a weak case, but what has thrown me is that to me they have taken a strong case and made the weakest possible argument from it. The thrill killers lying in 10 month wait really threw me for a loop...I didn't expect them to go there. To make murder and incineration in and of itself a goal. That tack surprised me and I didn't have a sense of it until the cross of MS. It almost felt like it was crafted specifically as an evolved theory in case MS had made some headway with the jury. We saw new texts emerge to support it. People rightly point out that MS and DM have crafted versions to fit the known evidence, but make no mistake that the Crown crafts too. This is an adversarial system and each side desires to win.
I don't think the Crown has a weak case, but what has thrown me is that to me they have taken a strong case and made the weakest possible argument from it. The thrill killers lying in 10 month wait really threw me for a loop...I didn't expect them to go there. To make murder and incineration in and of itself a goal. That tack surprised me and I didn't have a sense of it until the cross of MS. It almost felt like it was crafted specifically as an evolved theory in case MS had made some headway with the jury. We saw new texts emerge to support it. People rightly point out that MS and DM have crafted versions to fit the known evidence, but make no mistake that the Crown crafts too. This is an adversarial system and each side desires to win.
canadiangirl
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Agreed. Closing arguments tomorrow should hopefully bring more clarity for everyone. Regardless it'll be up to the jury. They have a ton of things to consider as we all have been doing.
ILoveDateline
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Fair enough, I can see the need to get away from all the back and forth and come back for closing arguments with a rested mind, but I recommend you review exhibit 144 posted over the weekend and billandrew's synopsis of the implications of the text messages as it fits into the time line.
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I base my opinion on all who testified and it they did not "Tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth" so to speak. Too many gaps were the common thread that ran through each and every testimony by all of the gang of thieves. It was an exercise in crimes of omission.
Crimes of omission. MS and the gang of thieves is full of gaps. They came out with information in bits and pieces and then would wait and try something else on for size to see if it would fit. A 3 year game of cat and mouse they played with LE and then the jury and the judge and the Bosma's. They are guilty as hell.
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