Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #17 [06.03.16 to 06.09.16]

[JuneBug67]

This has already been discussed several times and for reason the fact that the sim card is not necessary to retrieve messages and phone history is disregarded. The todays technology we have access to everything regardless of even having the actual phone as was the case with TB's and Bate phones. The SIM card holds information like contacts and Aps and that is why you switch them from phone to phone which is what many people do all the time, even the ones who are not accused of any crime.

May hold contacts and some app data, the latter being mostly relevant to smart phones. For most people storing contacts on SIMs is long gone in favour of cloud services like iCloud and Google. Other than contacts, the most important thing lost with any SIMs of MS's were likely the phone numbers associated with them so phone records could be pulled. I think we had production orders on at least two numbers for MS and he said he had 'a couple of SIMs' in those days, so it's possible we didn't miss anything important at all given that contacts were recovered from the Blackberry. Regardless, it's wildly unlikely to be the case that MS "wiped out his entire phone history" by ditching the SIMs as had been claimed on here. <modsnip>

 

[Claroon]

What makes it impossible that DM had a private plan in his mind which expanded upon just stealing a truck to add murder, which MS wasn't aware of?

Let's consider something else. I'm no lawyer, so don't know how far in advance premeditation needs to be. Can it be 30 min, an hour, a day?

Say they stop at Bobcat and while the scenario is that TB was dead, for this argument, say he was just injured and unconscious. DM says, "Let's go to the farm, get the incinerator and burn him. (plan)" MS replies, "Okay. (cooperating in plan)."

They get the incinerator together and an hour after scheming this plan, put TB in. No one is coming out of that thing alive! So in this scenario, MS was implicit in premeditation.

In this scenario, doesn't matter if he was shot or not. If MS helped with the plan to burn TB, he is guilty. IMO

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Sorry ... Error.

 

[billandrew]

Why I think Millard and Smich jointly planned to kill somebody...

Gun(s) and ammo

• Text messages between Millard and Isho suggest that Millard bought two guns from Isho, one in Feb 2012 and another in Sep 2012.
• Millard wrote to Smich "five fingered you some practice ammo", suggesting that Smich either had his own gun or used one that Millard bought.
• Millard took a photo of a .380 gun in Feb 2012 and sent another gun photo to his girlfriend in Sep 2012.
• Smich took two photos of a .380 gun, one on Mar 11, 2012 and another on Aug 3, 2012.
• Smich wrote rap lyrics about "his chrome piece" and "my 380". Fictional or not, there is an air of reality to these lyrics since the photos and texts also support that Smich had a .380 gun.

The texts between Millard and Smich on April 15, 2012 about ammo prove that they were both aware of the gun(s) between them and that they had a joint interest in making them operational. It does not seem that Smich is doing research for his boss, but rather it seems Smich and Millard are working together in researching and acquiring ammunition for their gun(s).

The acquisition of an illegal firearm(s) and the subsequent pursuit of ammunition is highly suggestive that it was intended to be used for sinister purposes. It is unlikely that one would go to such lengths to acquire bullets (via illegal channels) with no intention of ever shooting them. It is also unlikely that anyone would buy an illegal firearm for recreational purposes. You would not be able to take it to a shooting range, for example. There is no good explanation for acquiring illegal firearms and bullets other than to shoot somebody. There is intent. Joint intent.

The incinerator

• Millard took steps to acquire an incinerator (first a homemade one and then a commercial one) during May and June 2012.
• There is no evidence that the incinerator was ever used for anything other than to incinerate a dead body.
• There is evidence of a joint interest in the incinerator between Smich and Millard: 1) In May 2012 they went to look went to look at the homemade incinerator together; 2) In June 2012 Smich told Millard he was "looking at a mobile one" and indicated that some "chopping wood [sic?] be necessary"; 3) In Sep 2012 they moved the Eliminator into the barn together; 4) On April 27, 2013, texts suggest that they went to look at the Eliminator together to "figure out the BBQ situation this week." Just over a week later it would be used to incinerate a body.
• Smich testified that Millard told him the homemade incinerator was to be used for garbage and the Eliminator would be used for pet cremation. However, based on his prior association with the incinerator, it is highly unlikely that he was unaware of its true purpose.

The joint association of Smich and Millard to both the gun(s) and the incinerator goes a long way toward proving the planning and deliberation aspects of this case because it reveals an intent to kill. Although Millard had to buy the tools (Smich did not have the money), it was Millard and Smich jointly who associated with these tools and had a mutual interest in making them functional.

The partnership

The text from Millard "let's get to work, for@some@empires to build. Part a) getting you a base & me a dodge 3500" supports the idea that they were partners, not employer/employees. This was a partnership where Smich was going to get a base and Millard was going to get a 3500.

Millard and Smich confided in each other and shared intimate details of their lives with each other. They planned missions together and they planned "the" mission together, and it is unlikely that either of them were secretly planning to surprise the other with a murder. If one had surprised the other with a murder, what a breach of trust that would have been: the one who committed the murder would be forever fearful that the other guy might rat him out or spill the secret, while the one who did not do the shooting would be forever fearful that the killer might shoot them, or frame them, or otherwise do something wildly unpredictable.

Indeed, their joint plan to steal a 3500 truck and kill the owner worked out almost perfectly: if there was no trace of Bosma, no way to ID his truck, etc., no case could ever be made against them. It was well-thought out over many months and it was executed almost perfectly. They had no reason not to celebrate in the truck with Meneses the following morning.

The phone calls and texts between Millard and Smich during the week after the murder made no indication that their relationship had changed in any way. In fact, it was quite the opposite. It was business as usual, even after the heat was on. In addition to the time they physically spent together, they had upwards of 65 text messages and many phone calls between them in a 3-4 day period. Millard called Smich "bro", and Smich wanted Millard to "chill" with him. Their partnership was only broken once there was no other alternative, at which point it was every man for himself.

Smich's excitement to run the mission, his photos of the fireside furniture and sausages frying, his violent messages and rap lyrics about using guns and killing people, his references to fireworks, his conduct in the truck with Meneses and during the week following the murder, etc. These are all just sprinkles on the cake.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Why I think Millard and Smich jointly planned to kill somebody...

Gun(s) and ammo

• Text messages between Millard and Isho suggest that Millard bought two guns from Isho, one in Feb 2012 and another in Sep 2012.
• Millard wrote to Smich "five fingered you some practice ammo", suggesting that Smich either had his own gun or used one that Millard bought.
• Millard took a photo of a .380 gun in Feb 2012 and sent another gun photo to his girlfriend in Sep 2012.
• Smich took two photos of a .380 gun, one on Mar 11, 2012 and another on Aug 3, 2012.
• Smich wrote rap lyrics about "his chrome piece" and "my 380". Fictional or not, there is an air of reality to these lyrics since the photos and texts also support that Smich had a .380 gun.

The texts between Millard and Smich on April 15, 2012 about ammo prove that they were both aware of the gun(s) between them and that they had a joint interest in making them operational. It does not seem that Smich is doing research for his boss, but rather it seems Smich and Millard are working together in researching and acquiring ammunition for their gun(s).

The acquisition of an illegal firearm(s) and the subsequent pursuit of ammunition is highly suggestive that it was intended to be used for sinister purposes. It is unlikely that one would acquire bullets with no intention of ever shooting them. It is also unlikely that anyone would buy an illegal firearm for recreational purposes. You would not be able to take it to a shooting range, for example. There is no good explanation for acquiring illegal firearms and bullets other than to shoot somebody. There is intent. Joint intent.

The incinerator

• Millard took steps to acquire an incinerator (first a homemade one and then a commercial one) during May and June 2012.
• There is no evidence that the incinerator was ever used for anything other than to incinerate a dead body.
• There is evidence of a joint interest in the incinerator between Smich and Millard: 1) In May 2012 they went to look went to look at the homemade incinerator together; 2) In June 2012 Smich told Millard he was "looking at a mobile one" and indicated that some "chopping wood [sic?] be necessary"; 3) In Sep 2012 they moved the Eliminator into the barn together; 4) On April 27, 2013, texts suggest that they went to look at the Eliminator together to "figure out the BBQ situation this week." Just over a week later it would be used to incinerate a body.
• Smich testified that Millard told him the homemade incinerator was to be used for garbage and the Eliminator would be used for pet cremation. However, based on his prior association with the incinerator, it is highly unlikely that he was unaware of its true purpose.

The joint association of Smich and Millard to both the gun(s) and the incinerator goes a long way toward proving the planning and deliberation aspects of this case because it reveals an intent to kill. Although Millard had to buy the tools (Smich did not have the money), it was Millard and Smich jointly who associated with these tools and had an interest in making them functional.

The partnership

The text from Millard "let's get to work, for@some@empires to build. Part a) getting you a base & me a dodge 3500" supports the idea that they were partners, not employer/employees. This was a partnership where Smich was going to get a base and Millard was going to get a 3500.

Millard and Smich confided in each other and shared intimate details of their lives with each other. They planned missions together and they planned "the" mission together, and it is unlikely that either of them were secretly planning to surprise the other with a murder. If one had surprised the other with a murder, what a breach of trust that would have been: the one who committed the murder would be forever fearful that the other guy might rat him out or spill the secret, while the one who did not do the shooting would be forever fearful that the killer might shoot them, or frame them, or otherwise do something wildly unpredictable.

Indeed, their joint plan to steal a 3500 truck and kill the owner worked out almost perfectly: if there was no trace of Bosma, no way to ID his truck, etc., no case could ever be made against them. It was well-thought out over many months and it was executed almost perfectly. They had no reason not to celebrate in the truck with Meneses the following morning.

The phone calls and texts between Millard and Smich during the week after the murder made no indication that their relationship had changed in any way. In fact, it was quite the opposite. It was business as usual, even after the heat was on. In addition to the time they physically spent together, they had upwards of 65 text messages and many phone calls between them. Their partnership was only broken once there was no other alternative, at which point it was every man for himself.

Smich's excitement to run the mission, his photos of the fireside furniture and sausages frying, his violent messages and rap lyrics about using guns and killing people, his references to fireworks, his conduct in the truck with Meneses and during the week following the murder, etc. These are all just sprinkles on the cake.

Thank you ... Excellent post.


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[andreww]

Everything that you are pointing out (Shadow Plates, Van Mods, Incinerator Purchase, Purchase of Gun) were all done by the other fellow, and for most of those things, it is possible that SS knew more about them than MS did. What proof beyond a reasonable doubt exists that MS knew there was a plan to kill the truck owner that night. And yes, I would have to say that for MS to be convicted of first-degree murder in *this* case, he would have to have known that there was a plan for this case. Otherwise, that is similar to saying that if DM murdered someone according to a plan in his head when SS took him to hide his Ram, SS should also be charged with first degree murder of that person, because he knew all of those things too. SS says he didn't believe DM would be involved in that, although I'm pretty sure that he had to have heard discussions about it and been privy to why these things were required. It just doesn't equate with knowing there was a plan to murder on that trip. If it was known, perhaps attendance wouldn't have been chosen in either case. moo

Cmon, those things were purchased by the fellow with money with the other fellow fully aware of what they were going to be used for. These guys were building a frigging business, acquiring all the individual pieces of equipment required. And yes, IMO SS, AM, CN and probably MM knew exactly what the plan was before it was acted upon, but unfortunately they did not participate in the crime and LE probably felt they were more important as witnesses than defendants. CN is a perfect example of what you get when you lay charges against a witness.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Cmon, those things were purchased by the fellow with money with the other fellow fully aware of what they were going to be used for. These guys were building a frigging business, acquiring all the individual pieces of equipment required. And yes, IMO SS, AM, CN and probably MM knew exactly what the plan was before it was acted upon, but unfortunately they did not participate in the crime and LE probably felt they were more important as witnesses than defendants. CN is a perfect example of what you get when you lay charges against a witness.

I can't imagine all those people knew about a murder being about to happen. Stealing a truck sure, but murder no way.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2008/03/10/jurors_warned_to_avoid_lure_of_csi_effect.html

Toronto homicide investigators admit privately that they are frustrated because juries come into trials expecting a forensic "smoking gun," such as DNA evidence or video footage proving guilt.

"How could it be any other way?" says one police source. "Most jurors never see the real side of police work, yet they are exposed to thousands of hours of the fake side. Do you think that has an impact? Of course it does."

and

In a Canadian research paper exploring the CSI effect, Saint Mary's University psychology professors found the phenomenon exists here.

An interesting read.

MOO


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[marymcd]

This won't be a popular post, but...

'This was a premeditated mission' - I understood there to be evidence that there was a mission planned for the two men to steal a truck as has been testified to by a few witnesses, and by DM trying to get a witness to change what he heard DM say ahead of time in regard to stealing a truck at that time. For me personally, I am also satisfied that there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that DM (and possibly CN) knew that a murder was in the plan, because of DM's advance planning to have first the car-hauler trailer available, and then also the Yukon for towing the incinerator, as well as asking his employee in advance about the location of the generator for the incinerator. What evidence is being relied upon which proves beyond a reasonable doubt that MS knew that the mission also included murdering the truck owner?

I think it would have been very odd for Smich to have made arrangements in advance for those items when he didn't own them.

'The mission ended with TB being dead' - This is a fact, but what evidence is being relied upon which proves beyond a reasonable doubt that killing TB was part of the plan, and what evidence is being relied upon which proves beyond a reasonable doubt that MS knew this part of the plan?

And then again, the same could be said of Millard. Maybe the deal between them was that Millard was to provide the equipment needed and Smich's role was to carry out the actual murder.

'Both knew the gun existed, and it didn't exist for just photo ops' - What evidence is being relied upon which proves beyond a reasonable doubt that both knowing the gun existed means the same thing as both knowing that it was brought along on that evening and further, that it was brought along for the purpose of carrying out a plan to kill a man that night? What proves beyond a reasonable doubt that MS knew it was present that night before the murder, and that MS also knew that it had been planned to use it to murder a man on this occasion?

Again, the same could be said of Millard in that he didn't know that Smich was carrying a gun with the intent to murder a man.

I'm not actually suggesting either of the last two comments, because in my view, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence available to convict both of M1. Too much has to be explained 'away' to fall within the realm of reasonable doubt for either of them for my comfort. If I were a member of the jury, I could not in good conscience find either of them not guilty of M1.

A boat was next wasn't it?

 

[ILoveDateline]

It's not impossible but what convinced me was:

- a post by billandrew and his updated timeline (I'll link to it when I get to a desktop - it's hard to search on tapatalk) when exhibit 144 was release by AH and provided text msgs from MS.

- the SS video show the pass of TBs truck 3 times (yes, I believe it's TBs truck)

- uncorroborated MS testimony. TD should have done this via witness questioning.

I don't even need to know how it happened or who did it. Those 3 things lead to be believe MS was involved in the planning, present during execution (eek, sorry, I mean that in the follow through meaning), and cover up of a murder. JMO.

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I can't seem to edit a post I made via tapatalk when logged in through the website, so I am responding to my own message to link to the billandrew's post I mentioned in my OP.


It is #214 here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Weekend-Discussion-16&p=12588616#post12588616, specifically BBM:

• On May 28, 2012, in the midst of Millard getting Schlatman to build a homemade incinerator, Millard texted Smich, "we go [to] incinerator, cool?" And Smich replied, "Yo I'm down bro." This suggests that the incinerator had some importance to both of them.
• On July 7, 2012, just a few days after Laura Babcock is alleged to have been murdered, Smich wrote rap lyrics about his "380 is no stranger, when I'm angered you're in danger." The jury in this trial cannot speculate on Babcock, but the rap lyrics on their own tie Smich to the same type of gun that was allegedly used to kill Bosma.
• On August 20, 2012, during a text conversation about prepping for their missions, Smich stated that he was going to see Isho the following day. The context suggests that seeing Isho had some relation to the mission prep, and based on other evidence Isho is known to have supplied gun(s) and ammo in this case.
• On September 5, 2012, Millard texted Smich about getting together and moving the BBQ back into the barn. Later that evening, they took a video of the incinerator hitched up to the Yukon in the Millardair hangar. With no questions from Smich about moving the BBQ together, one might speculate that they had recently used it for something (sinister or not). At the very least, it shows that Smich had a prior association with the incinerator, and that he knew very well what "BBQ" meant.

 

[XiolaBlueX]

So because SS wasn't physically on the test drive he was not charged. Seems to me he knew about the same or more then MS. Other then going along on the test drive, what is the difference between MS and SS? Knowledge that a gun existed?

I think for me, the difference that bothers me is that at the very least even if MS really didn't help load TB into incinerator (I dislike having to write that line, sorry), it seems that he was intimately involved in the long clean up of the blood, human tissue, etc which is quite disturbing. I think if I had even heard MS add somehow that's he was sick to his stomach doing it, fighting throwing up while doing it, having flashbacks, etc it would make a difference to me. In other words, I'm wondering how MS could be involved to such a disturbing level after the fact. It also shows me that he may have been around dead bodies or other extreme violence before, because many people (including thieves obviously) could not help with the cleaning up part of such violence.
HOWEVER, again, that in isolation is still not evidence to me yet about anything other than AATF except for perhaps showing his mindset after the crime itself. In some way the judges charge to jury may help me with that too.
(Also, just because I mentioned MS might have been around other violent scenes before is not evidence to do with this, and him helping to clean up does not provide evidence of prior violent Acts, but it does of course impact my perception.)
I do understand what you mean though canadiangirl.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I can't seem to edit a post I made via tapatalk when logged in through the website, so I am responding to my own message to link to the billandrew's post I mentioned in my OP.


It is #214 here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Weekend-Discussion-16&p=12588616#post12588616, specifically BBM:

• On May 28, 2012, in the midst of Millard getting Schlatman to build a homemade incinerator, Millard texted Smich, "we go [to] incinerator, cool?" And Smich replied, "Yo I'm down bro." This suggests that the incinerator had some importance to both of them.
• On July 7, 2012, just a few days after Laura Babcock is alleged to have been murdered, Smich wrote rap lyrics about his "380 is no stranger, when I'm angered you're in danger." The jury in this trial cannot speculate on Babcock, but the rap lyrics on their own tie Smich to the same type of gun that was allegedly used to kill Bosma.
• On August 20, 2012, during a text conversation about prepping for their missions, Smich stated that he was going to see Isho the following day. The context suggests that seeing Isho had some relation to the mission prep, and based on other evidence Isho is known to have supplied gun(s) and ammo in this case.
• On September 5, 2012, Millard texted Smich about getting together and moving the BBQ back into the barn. Later that evening, they took a video of the incinerator hitched up to the Yukon in the Millardair hangar. With no questions from Smich about moving the BBQ together, one might speculate that they had recently used it for something (sinister or not). At the very least, it shows that Smich had a prior association with the incinerator, and that he knew very well what "BBQ" meant.

Thank you. I am so glad that you reposted this, as well as your bolding. Such excellent reasoning and common sense.

MOO


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[andreww]

I can't imagine all those people knew about a murder being about to happen. Stealing a truck sure, but murder no way.

Why do you say that? Within days they all certainly knew that Millard had Bosma's truck and it didn't seem to phase any of them. MM tried to talk MS out of participating in that particular mission, why? CN simply giggles at "operation digestion" like she already knows what he means. She certainly doesn't ask. All these people lied about their involvement and we are now expected to believe they have all come clean? What is missing here is the communications between girlfriends/boyfriends and friends where someone asks "what the hell did you guys do?". Especially after news of the Ambition tattoo is released, and it is obvious to everyone that TB is not coming home, there is not one word said between any of these people. They are all too silent, and they all play like they were ignorant to the whole TB situation. Sorry, I just find that way too hard to believe.

 

[ILoveDateline]

Thank you. I am so glad that you reposted this, as well as your bolding. Such excellent reasoning and common sense.

MOO


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That's billandrew's common sense, just to be clear. I reposted his comments. My reasoning is a little more senseless [emoji2]

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[Errrr]

I have to admit that I am shocked at how much SS was obviously aware of, and also disappointed that there wasn't at least some consequence for him in a legal sense. It seems that he was almost in the partner-in-this-crime category, imho. Sanding the emblems off of the truck; asking if even he had to remain at home on May 7th, as if he knew why and he wasn't expecting to be excluded; advising DM of AJ's intentions or discoveries; taking DM to one of SS's own friends to deliberately hide DM's Ram; building the homemade incinerator for what purpose; ordering the new incinerator for what purpose and building a trailer for it to make it portable; bringing in the power-washer on May 8th and what did he see done with it; did he really not see the bloody seats before they were taken to the farm for burning?; the coincidental timing of getting rid of his phone; teaching DM to hotwire vehicles (or whatever it's called for whatever types of vehicles); knowing that DM was into thievery and yet supposedly not taking his father-in-law seriously when he was concerned about TB; I think I could probably go on and on. I don't know why charges weren't levied for AATFtM against him.

It's interesting that billanddrews timeline shows that DM cancelled the paint job for the Ram on the 9th, before AJ met with SS to discuss Tims truck. Does this mean that SS actually knew of AJs suspicions before meeting him that night and informed DM? Also, it appears DM called his mother early morning that day and she called him back? Was he always planning to park it at her house even before LE was onto him?

 

[deugirtni]

I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to go on a test drive in Canada and bring a loaded gun without having sinister plans. In the US where it is more common, maybe, but certainly not Canada.

Well of course, that goes without saying, it isn't normal. But it could be 'their' normal. If they had done just that on all of the other missions, and/or if DM just simply carried his gun at all times, then it does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that MS had knowledge beforehand that this time was any different, even if he *was* aware that DM had his gun with him, does it?.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I agree SS was shady but I believe if he was truly invovled in this he would have been charged. I also think Dms only priority was himself so if Ss or anyone else was involved they would have been mentioned or exposed through those letters to CN

See I don't think DM would expose them for the sheer fact, he needed them to half AZZ their testimonies. They tell all, DM finds out through disclosure and he tells all. I think he protected AM in his letters and AM down played his roll.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Well of course, that goes without saying, it isn't normal. But it could be 'their' normal. If they had done just that on all of the other missions, and/or if DM just simply carried his gun at all times, then it does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that MS had knowledge beforehand that this time was any different, even if he *was* aware that DM had his gun with him, does it?.

I think if this was something DM was known to do (carry gun on missions or on his person daily) that MS would have thrown him under the bus on it. Or would that make things worse for MS? I tend to think it would help MS....hey yes, DM always carried a gun but never used it, so I didn't think anything of it. This puts the gun on DM and away from MS. JMO

 

[teamsundin]

Well of course, that goes without saying, it isn't normal. But it could be 'their' normal. If they had done just that on all of the other missions, and/or if DM just simply carried his gun at all times, then it does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that MS had knowledge beforehand that this time was any different, even if he *was* aware that DM had his gun with him, does it?.

Sure, in your hypothetically made up world where Millard walks around with a gun everywhere then it wouldn't be any different of a mission. Problem is there is nothing to prove that was reality.

But, regardless of their norms, if they went for a test drive with a gun, where at minimum they planned to steal a truck, that would suggest they were both willing participants in a situation where someone might be murdered. It might not happen every time (for example the test drive with Igor), but if it happens then I would certainly call that premeditation.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

That's billandrew's common sense, just to be clear. I reposted his comments. My reasoning is a little more senseless [emoji2]

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I certainly would never say that about your reasoning skills! [emoji851]


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