Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #17 [06.03.16 to 06.09.16]

[deugirtni]

https://www.crcna.org/news-and-views/prayer-vigil-planned-bosma-family

According to this, the charge won't be heard until Monday? I'm assuming this is a clerical error. Adam Carters Twitter still says Friday.

From what it says, I'm getting that a kind of vigil will be held until deliberations are over. Since the judge's instruction is expected to take both Friday and Monday, but deliberations won't begin until Monday, that is likely what is meant. The author probably should have used the word 'finalize', instead of 'give'. It really is amazing how just one simple word can confuse an issue. moo

The CRC’s Canadian Ministries office is planning a prayer vigil to begin on Monday, June 13, when the judge is expected to give his charge to the jurors before they begin deliberations. The vigil will continue until a verdict is reached.

 

[Sillybilly]

https://www.thestar.com/news/2007/11/04/mullings_guilty_in_carjacking_murder.html

That 1st degree charge was based on confinement as the qualifier, not hijacking (car jacking):

The route to first-degree murder was through section 231(5) - murder and unlawful confinement. Mulling was convicted. He appealed

HTH

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c.../en/summaries/35418+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

 

[hellkat2]

Why are you quoting and answering yourself?


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-06-03-16-to-06-09-16&p=12615974#post12615974

Sorry but something got messed up when i posted and the more i corrected the more messed up. So I have given up.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

So reading the Tory case, McClintic plead guilty but that info was under public ban. Is it possible one or both (MS/DM) have done this and no one knows? Or is this just wishful thinking on my part?

 

[deugirtni]

prove gun was brought to other missions and that it was loaded each time.

I get the impression that people might be missing the point that I am trying to make. I am terrible at debating, for sure. The Crown must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that MS knew about the plan to commit murder that night, or else premeditated murder is out the window for him, imho. Many here believe him to be guillty of first degree murder. so I asked the question.. I got answers.. from the opinions received, I broke them down further. This isn't about proving the gun went to other missions, I am saying, what if it was a common occurrence between the two of them, then it wouldn't necessarily prove that both of them knew a murder was planned for Tim.

As it turns out, it seems like, based on both Victoria Stafford's case, and the case noted just above with the car jacking, that it may be left in the jury's hands as to whether this event included forcible confinement. So if that is how it works, then the jury will have two ways in which to convict for first degree murder, it seems. In that case, if that is indeed the case, I believe it will be much more likely that both men will see a conviction of first degree murder.

 

[Errrr]

I can't imagine all those people knew about a murder being about to happen. Stealing a truck sure, but murder no way.

I agree. I think those kinds of details were on a need to know basis. People may have been suspicious of the eliminator a intent but I don't think they knew of the theft-murder combo. DM went to some pains to convince SS that he was only involved in a truck theft. If anyone knew, my guess would be CN. It seems very risky to bring her in to the evidence at that point without some assured silence. If CN wanted to know why he chose her, the answer is she seems the most cold blooded of his girlfriends.
I think even AJ knew what the eliminator was for though. His reaction to a truck theft was way over the top IMO.

 

[hellkat2]

That 1st degree charge was based on confinement as the qualifier, not hijacking (car jacking):



HTH

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c.../en/summaries/35418+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Yes I think I have said that and provided enough information at this point. But thanks for your validation of the matter. I also concurred that you are correct it does say hijacking technically. I give you this. But it is more the confinement....and there is lots of interpretation done by legal scholars around this. So I do not plan on belabouring this detail any further. Thank you for all of your attention to details. Hope you also see the overall point I was making as well.

 

[mimimic]

Of course not, but are you already involved in thefts and illegal activity with your husband? Have you said to you husband that you are no longer paying for anything, just taking it at the source?

Regarding this "at the source" business; what exactly does that mean? as opposed to taking it... how else? I might be making it more difficult to read by thinking it means something a little different then under cover and now means from an owner in person. Which they were doing anyway, but do you think the source is instead different then at night, without knowledge? sorry not real clear for me.

 

[Oreck]

Why do you say that? Within days they all certainly knew that Millard had Bosma's truck and it didn't seem to phase any of them. MM tried to talk MS out of participating in that particular mission, why? CN simply giggles at "operation digestion" like she already knows what he means. She certainly doesn't ask. All these people lied about their involvement and we are now expected to believe they have all come clean? What is missing here is the communications between girlfriends/boyfriends and friends where someone asks "what the hell did you guys do?". Especially after news of the Ambition tattoo is released, and it is obvious to everyone that TB is not coming home, there is not one word said between any of these people. They are all too silent, and they all play like they were ignorant to the whole TB situation. Sorry, I just find that way too hard to believe.

Can anyone explain to me how DM was caught.
Did LE have a tat registry where they could just look up Ambition alphabetically?
AJ went to CS but not LE till after they came to the hanger.
Also why did AM or MH snitch on Smitch?
There was not a lot said that I saw.

 

[mimimic]

In the majority of cases I would agree. However in this case it seems like DM is the alpha. He's their golden boy. Rich guy with toys. There's a gang mentality with these people. DM planned what to take. When. Who was involved. Where. Etc. I mean most testimony we heard said DM would say I have a mission for you, you in? and then boom. They are off stealing trees and random things. I don't think everyone was privy to exactly every detail of what a mission might involve. Just go along for the ride. So it's not unreasonable to think someone wasn't aware of the plan in this case.

For a normal person who isn't involved in this lifestyle with it then I'd agree. But DM was pushing the limits as far as he could it seems.

Just like he told AM the missions would be dangerous. AM was on board. Why not bring him along? Maybe because he didn't have a criminal background to make him the fall guy should stuff go sideways?

However, IMO this situation is no different then everyone who has said by being a juror you'd just be swayed by 11 other people, give into the pressure, and go with the flow. And have no consideration for putting someone away for life because you had family at home to consider. Some people have a strong will, and sometimes people just go with the flow without complete rational thinking. It's been demonstrated time and again.

I don't mean any disrespect canadiangirl, but, all but the last paragraph in this post seem to contradict many of your last few posts. I don't think DM was planning for needing a fall guy so early in his game. His game that he was planning was to get more dangerous. If only we could ask him in what ways could they get more dangerous. at this point it wasn't fall guys he needed - he needed willing participants. unfortunately ... then boom - just as planned.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I get the impression that people might be missing the point that I am trying to make. I am terrible at debating, for sure. The Crown must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that MS knew about the plan to commit murder that night, or else premeditated murder is out the window for him, imho. Many here believe him to be guillty of first degree murder. so I asked the question.. I got answers.. from the opinions received, I broke them down further. This isn't about proving the gun went to other missions, I am saying, what if it was a common occurrence between the two of them, then it wouldn't necessarily prove that both of them knew a murder was planned for Tim.

As it turns out, it seems like, based on both Victoria Stafford's case, and the case noted just above with the car jacking, that it may be left in the jury's hands as to whether this event included forcible confinement. So if that is how it works, then the jury will have two ways in which to convict for first degree murder, it seems. In that case, if that is indeed the case, I believe it will be much more likely that both men will see a conviction of first degree murder.

I wonder if forcible confinement will be in the Judge's charge. I don't remember it being presented by the Crown during the trial or in the opening statement. From what they presented, it sounded like they were going for premeditation.

JMO

 

[mimimic]

It is evidenced that DM parked down the street so the Yukon wouldn't be seen, and that DM used a burner phone to contact various truck sellers, and that at some point DM purchased a gun from Isho, and that the Yukon followed TB's stolen truck to the hangar where incineration was evidenced to occur. We have a last-minute report from a witness that the mood was jovial on the morning of the 7th, and that it was said that they stole a truck... but I am just not getting what part of the evidence is being relied upon as proof beyond a reasonable doubt that MS knew in advance that a murder was planned for that mission. Sorry if I seem dense.

I thought this not looking at the whole is PART of the problem. (?)

 

[Alethea Dice]

To me if you feel MS isn't guilty of murder than I don't see a reasonable way to have DM guilty of 1st degree murder. It's just an absurd scenario.

I can see 2nd degree for DM if you feel MS is not guilty.

I totally agree with this. If the murder was planned, they were both in it together, from beginning to end.

For MS to be not guilty, IMO there would need to be reasonable doubt that the murder was planned and no doubt about who brought the gun and used it.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Can anyone explain to me how DM was caught.
Did LE have a tat registry where they could just look up Ambition alphabetically?
AJ went to CS but not LE till after they came to the hanger.
Also why did AM or MH snitch on Smitch?
There was not a lot said that I saw.

DM had been stopped for a traffic infraction, I believe, and he was carded ... His tattoos were noted by the officer.

I am sorry that I don't remember about the snitching part.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Alethea Dice]

And when it can be clearly proven the other person knew, without a doubt the other one brought it, then people can agree they both intended to kill.
Many people have stated, just because someone brings something along, or even knows of it's existences, doesn't prove anything.

It's going to be hard to clearly prove "without a doubt" that both knew of a plan, when they can't even prove "without a doubt" who brought and used the gun. JMO

 

[canadiangirl]

I don't mean any disrespect canadiangirl, but, all but the last paragraph in this post seem to contradict many of your last few posts. I don't think DM was planning for needing a fall guy so early in his game. His game that he was planning was to get more dangerous. If only we could ask him in what ways could they get more dangerous. at this point it wasn't fall guys he needed - he needed willing participants. unfortunately ... then boom - just as planned.

I dont take it as disrespect at all I dont see the contradiction persay, maybe clarification.
I dont know that DM was looking for a fall guy. Willing participant sure. But it has been said that DM did all the planning. I didnt see any evidence of MS calling MH or AM asking if they were coming along for a mission.
It was all DM making those calls, deciding what to take and who to drag along for the ride. They were all willing to go.
For this particular mission, I was stating it wouldve been easier to have MS go along on a theft mission if in fact in DMs mind it was DM take the truck at any cost mission in his eyes.
Since we know MS has the sketchy past, it would be easier then AM or SS taking the fall, and MS would have the most to lose having prior run ins with LE.
And when I say gang mentality, meaning, they all have each other backs. The bro code. So Im quite sure DM was counting on everyone to say nothing, not just MS if stuff ever went sideways.
I would say based on his letters to CN plus how out in the open he talked to AM, dropping the gun off at MH, asking CN along etc, he really wasnt worried about anyone squeeling on him, but instead
he counted on all of them to help cover it up. MS included.
This seemed to be the case for most, if not all the key players. They gave up very little in their testimonies even when subpoena to court. They told only what they had to, had sketchy memories and didnt know much at all. MOO

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

It is evidenced that DM parked down the street so the Yukon wouldn't be seen, and that DM used a burner phone to contact various truck sellers, and that at some point DM purchased a gun from Isho, and that the Yukon followed TB's stolen truck to the hangar where incineration was evidenced to occur. We have a last-minute report from a witness that the mood was jovial on the morning of the 7th, and that it was said that they stole a truck... but I am just not getting what part of the evidence is being relied upon as proof beyond a reasonable doubt that MS knew in advance that a murder was planned for that mission. Sorry if I seem dense.

No disrespect intended. I am wondering what your impression is when you read all the text messages between DM and MS? Do you see nefarious planning between the two of them, or do you see common everyday chitchat? Do you see any relationship at all between those texts, purchase of gun(s) and ammunition and purchase of a livestock incinerator?

How do you view the latter as a whole?

I am trying to understand things from your perspective.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[canadiangirl]

I agree. I think those kinds of details were on a need to know basis. People may have been suspicious of the eliminator a intent but I don't think they knew of the theft-murder combo. DM went to some pains to convince SS that he was only involved in a truck theft. If anyone knew, my guess would be CN. It seems very risky to bring her in to the evidence at that point without some assured silence. If CN wanted to know why he chose her, the answer is she seems the most cold blooded of his girlfriends.
I think even AJ knew what the eliminator was for though. His reaction to a truck theft was way over the top IMO.

You mean when he said he went outside and vomited after hearing it was the Bosma truck???

 

[Alethea Dice]

Someone posted a link about a guy that robbed a store out East. I'd repost but I forget the guys name.
He had a loaded gun to just rob a store but ended up shooting a customer. He didn't plan for that customer to be in the store but is being charged for 1st degree murder.

I think that was the one in the link I posted. The customer tried to intervene in the robbery. The lawyer they spoke to didn't have access to all the evidence in the case, but said they could be going for planned and deliberate. The example he used was, if the customer was trying to detain the robber, and the robber told him he would shoot if he didn't back off, then pulled the trigger, first degree could apply.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I totally agree with this. If the murder was planned, they were both in it together, from beginning to end.

For MS to be not guilty, IMO there would need to be reasonable doubt that the murder was planned and no doubt about who brought the gun and used it.

BBM

I am sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by the bolded part. Could you please elaborate? TIA



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk