Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #17 [06.03.16 to 06.09.16]

[deugirtni]

To me if you feel MS isn't guilty of murder than I don't see a reasonable way to have DM guilty of 1st degree murder. It's just an absurd scenario.

I can see 2nd degree for DM if you feel MS is not guilty.

What makes it impossible that DM had a private plan in his mind which expanded upon just stealing a truck to add murder, which MS wasn't aware of?

 

[deugirtni]

I am finding myself a bit confused about the cellphone aspect. It seems that people are believing that MS's disappearance of sim card(s) means he had stuff on there to hide which would have assisted in this case.

Is it wrong to believe that if police had DM's phone, and if they had AM's phone, and MM's phone, and possibly BD's phone, and possibly MH's phone (I'm not certain whose phones police had, other than I'm certain they had DM's and AM's phones), they would have had all of the communications which MS made TO those phones? Or would DM's and AM's phones only show their outgoing texts? From the texts I have seen, I believe police can see both incoming and outgoing texts. Considering that a huge percentage of texts on DM's phone were communications with MS, and considering that this crime involved these 2 individuals only, what is it that people are thinking MS was hiding?

 

[ILoveDateline]

I am finding myself a bit confused about the cellphone aspect. It seems that people are believing that MS's disappearance of sim card(s) means he had stuff on there to hide which would have assisted in this case.

Is it wrong to believe that if police had DM's phone, and if they had AM's phone, and MM's phone, and possibly BD's phone, and possibly MH's phone (I'm not certain whose phones police had, other than I'm certain they had DM's and AM's phones), they would have had all of the communications which MS made TO those phones? Or would DM's and AM's phones only show their outgoing texts? From the texts I have seen, I believe police can see both incoming and outgoing texts. Considering that a huge percentage of texts on DM's phone were communications with MS, and considering that this crime involved these 2 individuals only, what is it that people are thinking MS was hiding?

The information from his communication with isho and MM, for a start, are missing/incomplete. What happened when he "linked" isho on the 9th. Maybe there is incriminating evidence, maybe not.

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[Miranda16]

SS was in on the plan to build and buy an incinerator. He also hid DM's red truck for him after the fact and was helping to cover up TB's truck.
Also to add to that, he suddenly got a new phone after he was told not to come into the hanger.

Its a shame that LE seemingly haven't been able to charge him with anything. I don't think they can prove that he knew of TB's murder at the time he helped cover up. He feigned ignorance well enough to avoid being charged.

It will be interesting to see how they'll prove AATF in CN's trial.

 

[Mscree]

I am finding myself a bit confused about the cellphone aspect. It seems that people are believing that MS's disappearance of sim card(s) means he had stuff on there to hide which would have assisted in this case.

Is it wrong to believe that if police had DM's phone, and if they had AM's phone, and MM's phone, and possibly BD's phone, and possibly MH's phone (I'm not certain whose phones police had, other than I'm certain they had DM's and AM's phones), they would have had all of the communications which MS made TO those phones? Or would DM's and AM's phones only show their outgoing texts? From the texts I have seen, I believe police can see both incoming and outgoing texts. Considering that a huge percentage of texts on DM's phone were communications with MS, and considering that this crime involved these 2 individuals only, what is it that people are thinking MS was hiding?

Why did they disappear if they didn't? Why in the truck was there no evidence of MS. He was no dummy

 

[Inspector_North]

It is evidenced that DM parked down the street so the Yukon wouldn't be seen, and that DM used a burner phone to contact various truck sellers, and that at some point DM purchased a gun from Isho, and that the Yukon followed TB's stolen truck to the hangar where incineration was evidenced to occur. We have a last-minute report from a witness that the mood was jovial on the morning of the 7th, and that it was said that they stole a truck... but I am just not getting what part of the evidence is being relied upon as proof beyond a reasonable doubt that MS knew in advance that a murder was planned for that mission. Sorry if I seem dense.

"That" is the key to looking at this as a premeditated murder. They both didn't know there was going to be a murder on "that" mission. Heck, it could have been IT the day before. We don't even know if murder was a requirement for 'that' mission. What we can see through evidence is that missions were being tooled to handle what was needed to make them successful.

Shadow Plates
Van being modified for search and capture missions
Purchased incinerator and modified to be mobile
Purchase of a gun that could be easily concealed.

One of the items above was bought for the purpose of killing, and one for destroying the 'mess'.

If you are looking for specifics for this mission in relation to murder, it may not be there. But IMO both knew that sooner or later a mission would require the use of the PPK tool.

MOO

 

[deugirtni]

Its a shame that LE seemingly haven't been able to charge him with anything. I don't think they can prove that he knew of TB's murder at the time he helped cover up. He feigned ignorance well enough to avoid being charged.

It will be interesting to see how they'll prove AATF in CN's trial.

I have to admit that I am shocked at how much SS was obviously aware of, and also disappointed that there wasn't at least some consequence for him in a legal sense. It seems that he was almost in the partner-in-this-crime category, imho. Sanding the emblems off of the truck; asking if even he had to remain at home on May 7th, as if he knew why and he wasn't expecting to be excluded; advising DM of AJ's intentions or discoveries; taking DM to one of SS's own friends to deliberately hide DM's Ram; building the homemade incinerator for what purpose; ordering the new incinerator for what purpose and building a trailer for it to make it portable; bringing in the power-washer on May 8th and what did he see done with it; did he really not see the bloody seats before they were taken to the farm for burning?; the coincidental timing of getting rid of his phone; teaching DM to hotwire vehicles (or whatever it's called for whatever types of vehicles); knowing that DM was into thievery and yet supposedly not taking his father-in-law seriously when he was concerned about TB; I think I could probably go on and on. I don't know why charges weren't levied for AATFtM against him.

 

[canadiangirl]

Its a shame that LE seemingly haven't been able to charge him with anything. I don't think they can prove that he knew of TB's murder at the time he helped cover up. He feigned ignorance well enough to avoid being charged.

It will be interesting to see how they'll prove AATF in CN's trial.

So because SS wasn't physically on the test drive he was not charged. Seems to me he knew about the same or more then MS. Other then going along on the test drive, what is the difference between MS and SS? Knowledge that a gun existed?

 

[ILoveDateline]

What makes it impossible that DM had a private plan in his mind which expanded upon just stealing a truck to add murder, which MS wasn't aware of?

It's not impossible but what convinced me was:

- a post by billandrew and his updated timeline (I'll link to it when I get to a desktop - it's hard to search on tapatalk) when exhibit 144 was release by AH and provided text msgs from MS.

- the SS video show the pass of TBs truck 3 times (yes, I believe it's TBs truck)

- uncorroborated MS testimony. TD should have done this via witness questioning.

I don't even need to know how it happened or who did it. Those 3 things lead to be believe MS was involved in the planning, present during execution (eek, sorry, I mean that in the follow through meaning), and cover up of a murder. JMO.

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[FastLikeLight]

What DM cars could to tow Eliminator? Only Yukon?

 

[Miranda16]

So because SS wasn't physically on the test drive he was not charged. Seems to me he knew about the same or more then MS. Other then going along on the test drive, what is the difference between MS and SS? Knowledge that a gun existed?

I think because he was not physically there for the test drive and the worst of the cover-up (involving the body and blood evidence). They can also show that MS was active in planning and engaging in missions and that MS handled the weapon before and after). MS is also more of a physical danger to the public (if released) due to his willingness to handle weapons and engage in theft and drug dealing. If MS is released in his 40s he could re-engage in crime.

If if they can prove that CN knew a murder occurred then she was involved in trying to hide evidence of incineration and the blood evidence (by helping to hide the truck). Hopefully they can prove this. CN's attitude implies that she doesn't think the crown has a case.

 

[Inspector_North]

What DM cars could to tow Eliminator? Only Yukon?

No, the Red 3500 and possibly the Van. It was only the closed vehicle trailer that was a fifth wheel, and required the red truck.

MOO

 

[deugirtni]

"That" is the key to looking at this as a premeditated murder. They both didn't know there was going to be a murder on "that" mission. Heck, it could have been IT the day before. We don't even know if murder was a requirement for 'that' mission. What we can see through evidence is that missions were being tooled to handle what was needed to make them successful.

Shadow Plates
Van being modified for search and capture missions
Purchased incinerator and modified to be mobile
Purchase of a gun that could be easily concealed.

One of the items above was bought for the purpose of killing, and one for destroying the 'mess'.

If you are looking for specifics for this mission in relation to murder, it may not be there. But IMO both knew that sooner or later a mission would require the use of the PPK tool.

MOO

Everything that you are pointing out (Shadow Plates, Van Mods, Incinerator Purchase, Purchase of Gun) were all done by the other fellow, and for most of those things, it is possible that SS knew more about them than MS did. What proof beyond a reasonable doubt exists that MS knew there was a plan to kill the truck owner that night. And yes, I would have to say that for MS to be convicted of first-degree murder in *this* case, he would have to have known that there was a plan for this case. Otherwise, that is similar to saying that if DM murdered someone according to a plan in his head when SS took him to hide his Ram, SS should also be charged with first degree murder of that person, because he knew all of those things too. SS says he didn't believe DM would be involved in that, although I'm pretty sure that he had to have heard discussions about it and been privy to why these things were required. It just doesn't equate with knowing there was a plan to murder on that trip. If it was known, perhaps attendance wouldn't have been chosen in either case. moo

 

[deugirtni]

No, the Red 3500 and possibly the Van. It was only the closed vehicle trailer that was a fifth wheel, and required the red truck.

MOO

Is there evidence that DM's red Ram had the appropriate facilities to tow the incinerator?

 

[DMB]

I am finding myself a bit confused about the cellphone aspect. It seems that people are believing that MS's disappearance of sim card(s) means he had stuff on there to hide which would have assisted in this case.

Is it wrong to believe that if police had DM's phone, and if they had AM's phone, and MM's phone, and possibly BD's phone, and possibly MH's phone (I'm not certain whose phones police had, other than I'm certain they had DM's and AM's phones), they would have had all of the communications which MS made TO those phones? Or would DM's and AM's phones only show their outgoing texts? From the texts I have seen, I believe police can see both incoming and outgoing texts. Considering that a huge percentage of texts on DM's phone were communications with MS, and considering that this crime involved these 2 individuals only, what is it that people are thinking MS was hiding?

This has already been discussed several times and for reason the fact that the sim card is not necessary to retrieve messages and phone history is disregarded. The todays technology we have access to everything regardless of even having the actual phone as was the case with TB's and Bate phones. The SIM card holds information like contacts and Aps and that is why you switch them from phone to phone which is what many people do all the time, even the ones who are not accused of any crime.

 

[canadiangirl]

I think because he was not physically there for the test drive and the worst of the cover-up (involving the body and blood evidence). They can also show that MS was active in planning and engaging in missions and that MS handled the weapon before and after). MS is also more of a physical danger to the public (if released) due to his willingness to handle weapons and engage in theft and drug dealing. If MS is released in his 40s he could re-engage in crime.

If if they can prove that CN knew a murder occurred then she was involved in trying to hide evidence of incineration and the blood evidence (by helping to hide the truck). Hopefully they can prove this. CN's attitude implies that she doesn't think the crown has a case.

BBM
This sentence says a lot to me right there as to why MS was possibly chosen for this particular mission that night, and not AM or SS.
MOO

 

[deugirtni]

Why did they disappear if they didn't? Why in the truck was there no evidence of MS. He was no dummy

MS was a drug dealer. I misworded my question and should have instead asked... what is missing that LE was hoping to discover on MS's phone, had he not disposed of his sim card(s)? It is presented (by DM's lawyer) as if it is a huge mountain of evidence against MS that is missing, but weren't his texts between himself and DM already entered into evidence? If those two were the only players in this murder, what are they thinking they're missing? What is the big deal about that, is what I'm asking. They had DM's and AM's phones, which I believe would have included MS's texts TO them, as well as what they wrote themselves.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

What makes it impossible that DM had a private plan in his mind which expanded upon just stealing a truck to add murder, which MS wasn't aware of?

It is not impossible. But given the totality of all the evidence, it is most probable, and beyond a reasonable doubt IMO, that MS was well aware.


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[deugirtni]

This has already been discussed several times and for reason the fact that the sim card is not necessary to retrieve messages and phone history is disregarded. The todays technology we have access to everything regardless of even having the actual phone as was the case with TB's and Bate phones. The SIM card holds information like contacts and Aps and that is why you switch them from phone to phone which is what many people do all the time, even the ones who are not accused of any crime.

Yes, there seems to be massive confusion surrounding the cellphones. The texts were not entered as exhibits that the public can see... which makes it difficult to gain context. Why that would be missing, I have no idea. I had understood that texts can't be necessarily retrieved unless LE has the actual phone (at least that is how it is with *some* carriers). There have been people saying sim cards hold texts and others saying they don't. I believe it may be a choice that one makes when they're setting up their phone? In any case, even if all of MS's texts were missing and unable to be retrieved from the phones and the carriers, aren't they still visible on DM's and AM's phones? So what is missing from evidence?

 

[DMB]

I have to admit that I am shocked at how much SS was obviously aware of, and also disappointed that there wasn't at least some consequence for him in a legal sense. It seems that he was almost in the partner-in-this-crime category, imho. Sanding the emblems off of the truck; asking if even he had to remain at home on May 7th, as if he knew why and he wasn't expecting to be excluded; advising DM of AJ's intentions or discoveries; taking DM to one of SS's own friends to deliberately hide DM's Ram; building the homemade incinerator for what purpose; ordering the new incinerator for what purpose and building a trailer for it to make it portable; bringing in the power-washer on May 8th and what did he see done with it; did he really not see the bloody seats before they were taken to the farm for burning?; the coincidental timing of getting rid of his phone; teaching DM to hotwire vehicles (or whatever it's called for whatever types of vehicles); knowing that DM was into thievery and yet supposedly not taking his father-in-law seriously when he was concerned about TB; I think I could probably go on and on. I don't know why charges weren't levied for AATFtM against him.

I have to ask the same about AM. It was his exclusive conversation with Dm in which the plan for the year and how much money was needed to cover costs and discussing the danger and intimidating aspects of the "missions" he proposed in which AM said "I'm in". He was also told that DM would let him know the details of the missions and AM could pick and choose. AM lived with DM, was his best friend, went on all trips, Baja, sailing, etc yet no evidence of what he gave in return for these perks. As he lived with him knew the extent of his drug dealings, probably knew and saw the gun as MS said DM left it lying around (and implied it was for protection), assisted in searches for the truck, and was in on discussions regarding the plan. Also, the fact that he lived with DM gave him opportunity to actually speak with DM daily with no need to text incriminating messages. First degree for AM! IMHO