Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #18

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I have done this and it is not a job you can do at night under light from a window next door.
I think the hanger lights were only turned on after DM got back from Timmys or where ever.
The doors were not open for the time Dillen was gone and even this would not have been adequate light to find all the tie-down bolt and screws in the dark.
Mark was lying.

There's no evidence of the lights being on or off in the hanger. We know for certain they were on at some point thanks to video evidence. If there is something else please link it. Thanks
 
Why is it not possible to have been the morning of the 7th that MS whizzed past BD, because MS whizzing past BD and entering his mother's house does not preclude MM also going into the house, and being the one to return to bring down the pot, telling him to leave.

There are a few dates noted in tweets listed under Pillay's cross, and so I don't see how all of them could have been errors. moo though. I believe Dungey also noted the date of May 6th being the day that MS whizzes past him, same as below. Obviously this is in error, since the crime had not happened yet?

I am not certain on the date when MS and MM moved into MM's sister's apartment, however I thought I had read somewhere that it was before DM's arrest. During the talked-about 50-minute visit that DM paid to MS prior to his arrest, where did DM go to have that visit with MS? Was it at MS's mother's house? And when was it that BD 'let DM in'? And was that not at MM's sister's apartment? I will look back, perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that the two were living at the sister's prior to DM's arrest. moo.

====
AC's live blog on April 5, 2013:



I went back and read through the tweets from MH, SC and AC. MH didn't specify dates and SC said it was "the week of" May 6th that MS blew past him and "the next day" told him he had *advertiser censored**d up. AC had no date in his tweets, only on his live blog. So I guess it's another one of those things that we have to choose which reporter to believe. I do find it hard to believe that Daly knew the exact date that happened though. He didn't seem to know what date anything happened and, when Dungey suggested things were pretty hazy, he said "This whole train of events is just kind of jammed together."

I believe that DM met MS at the apartment on the 10th, but MS had texted him to tell him that he was around the corner.
 
I think this is the most likely as well. Except if murder was never the intent, it doesn't equal 1st degree. Second degree, or less likely manslaughter, for both. JMO

If two people come up to you and say give me the money or i am gonna kill you and you either give them the money or you get killed. Murder was not the intent, the money was, but if the person does not give up the money and that person is subsequently murdered then it is first degree murder. The defense for the lawyer might try and say....well it was not the intent for them to murder they just did it because the individual did not give up the money. You get where I am going with this....I know you do.
 
Too bad BD is not a reliable witness according to the judge. The gun ownership is important.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 9s9 seconds ago

Pillay: I want to be clear. The gun in the toolbox, Smich told you that was his gun? He owned that gun?
Yes, Daly says. #Bosma

and these two conflicting tweets.

Colin Butler ‏@ColinButlerCBC 11s12 seconds ago
He's recalling in May 2013 a night when Smich blew past him and out of Millard's truck #TimBosma


Pillay asking about May 6, when Daly saw Smich rolling up with Millard and Marlena in Millard's Yukon. Smich "blew past him," and went into the house, court hears.
by Adam Carter 4:01 PM


He may not be reliable because he doesn't know dates, but that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't credible. And he stuck to his statements about the gun ownership even when Dungey tried to change his words and confuse things.

From MH's tweets, starting at line 2995:
Re: the YouTube video Mark had shown him of "zombie bullets."

Mark mentioned to Daly that he wanted a gun that went with those, but got a diff one. DM got the one he wanted.

You don't know what gun Smich had, Dungey suggests. Daly agrees.

"The gun in the video has nothing to do with the gun in the toolbox," Dungey says. "Correct," Daly says.

There's confusion her, Dungey says: "Mr Smich never told you his gun was the one in the toolbox." Daly says yes he did.

"He doesn't tell you what gun he had," Dungey says. Daly agrees.

No further questions from Dungey.

Crown (Brett Moodie) up to reexamine. Re: Dungey's last Q, when you say he didn't tell you what gun he had are you referring to the type?

"Exactly," Daly says. Smich didn't tell him what type of gun he had.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zxyo_MC4bf28IMfFvSuu5ETlebQlyw__2QSDhYkGxMU/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=156108166
 
A dog eating dog food is normal behaviour. How about if a steak is missing from the counter?

The dog that ran and hid under the couch when you came back ate the steak.
Both DM and MS hid evidence, MS ran and hid at MM sister's apt after LE was after them. Both dogs are guilty

Why did the dog run and hide under the couch? Because the owner was upset about the steak missing and the dog was in trouble. However, whether they did it or not, the dog will run and hide once it knows it's in trouble.
 
IMO, it was plan A.6 & A.7

A.1 buy gun
A.2 buy incinerator
A.3 choose target
A.4 meet with target
A.5 hold gun on target and shoot target
A.6 stop at farm to get incinerator
A.7 finish victim off
A.8 dismantle truck

Plan B ...then go after the Russian for his truck
 
MS said he began removing carpet and seat belts when DM left. And there were lights in the hanger. Not sure where you're getting he was doing this in the dark? We saw lights from the hanger in the video evidence when someone opened the door to check on the incinerator outside.

People are upset about misinformation here. Please quote your sources for this. Thanks

546a52c8bb0a0fec111df4f212224b59.jpg


According to billandrew's timeline, the Yukon left the hangar at 12:42 am. MS testified that when DM left at this time, he began removing the carpet, seat belts, etc.

Yukon returns at 1:12 am.

Incinerator is in operation at 1:44 am.

Hangar lights are not turned on until 3:23 am.

What lights were being used prior to 3:23 am?



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I can't help but think about the Jurors tonight, as they pack their bags and prepare for bunkering down in an unknown hotel away from the rest of the world until they can reach a verdict. Being on a Jury in a trial of this magnitude has to take it's toll- truly amazing that there's still 12 Jurors.

It's such an incredible responsibility. On another note, I wonder if any of DM or MS's family will be present when a verdict is reached? How much time is there from the time the Jury has reached their decision and Court is called to order? Will they be keeping MS at Barton St while the Jury is out? Everyone doesn't stay at the courthouse......do they?

I share the same thoughts as yours regarding the jury.

The victim support person will contact the Bosma family when a verdict is reached, and allow them plenty of time to get to the courtroom. Everyone involved, lawyers, defendants, etc., will be told about the verdict and given time to arrive at the courthouse. The accused will wait in their cells until a verdict is reached.


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There's no evidence of the lights being on or off in the hanger. We know for certain they were on at some point thanks to video evidence. If there is something else please link it. Thanks

I did link it ... It is at Post #208 in this thread.


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Knowing a crime had been committed, and helping to clean up, doesn't make one a murderer, but does mean both would run and hide the same. So hiding and fleeing prosecution doesn't make both of them guilty of first degree murder.
Correct. But, DM and MS actions after the fact do not stand alone. These are simply garnishment on the main body of the evidence.
If one is to believe that DM is guilty of 2nd degree, then one must also believe the Eliminator was bought for non-existent farm animals. The incinerator prep was planning for a murder IMO.
 
Right ... with DM not testifying and MS testifying but claiming he wasn't there, there would be no evidence from the time Tim entered the vehicle until his death to support that essential element.
Three people left the drive way and two people are alive and one's remains was found in incinerator used by the two for missions. Two people who came prepared to succeed no matter what scenario presented.
 
<modsnip>
I posted info in Post 208 in this thread ... the hangar lights were not turned on until 3:23 am, even though they arrived at the hangar at 12:19 am.

I have no idea what lights would have been on prior to 3:23 am, when MS and DM were supposedly stripping Tim's truck.


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546a52c8bb0a0fec111df4f212224b59.jpg


According to billandrew's timeline, the Yukon left the hangar at 12:42 am. MS testified that when DM left at this time, he began removing the carpet, seat belts, etc.

Yukon returns at 1:12 am.

Incinerator is in operation at 1:44 am.

Hangar lights are not turned on until 3:23 am.

What lights were being used prior to 3:23 am?



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Thanks for this Mrs T. I was using the actual media tweets, not Bill's timeline.
MS did not testify he removed the seats, and it was indicated by media sources the main lights in the hanger turned on at 3:23am.

BBM
From Susan Clairmont
Why did you cut the carpets, seatbelts? Why not run? Smich: "It didn't go through my mind at that time. I did what he told me to do." May 19, 2016
How long was Dell gone getting gas? Smich doesn't recall. May 19, 2016
"You wash Mr. Bosma's vehicle?" Smich says yes. Had to turn vehicle around because hose wasn't long enough. Takes a while, horrible scene. May 19, 2016
Smich agrees he helped Millard remove the seats. How long did that take? Smich doesn't recall. Smich says they used socket wrench. May 19, 2016
3:23 a.m. Main lights come on in hangar. They're inside cleaning truck. Jun 02, 2016

From Adam Carter
Smich says Millard drove Bosma's truck to Schlatman's work area at the hangar. Smich followed in the Yukon. #Bosma #TimBosma May 11, 2016
Smich says he got an exacto knife out of the Yukon and cut out the carpet, the seatbelts, while Millard left to get gas for the Yukon #Bosma May 11, 2016
Smich says Millard left again and came back with tools. They then removed the seats. #TimBosma #Bosma May 11, 2016
At 3:23 a.m., the main lights are on in the hangar, and they're gutting the truck, Leitch says. #TimBosma #Bosma Jun 02, 2016

This is not clear to me that MS was working in the dark the entire time, mechanics bays have their own lighting and the truck was in SS' work area
 
I think that would apply, if they put the gun on him and forced him into the truck at the start. The cases are similar are too dissimilar for the case law to be usable. In the scenarios given it was a quick flash of the gun and dead. It is unlikely of an ongoing holding of the victim given testimony given in this case.

Further, there is likely some "legal argument" about eligibility of forcible confinement, which we may not be privy too where it was decided without the jury that forcible confinement would not apply to the DM and MS trial.

TB was lured into the vehicle under false pretense. The only way I can see not being able to conclude he was forcibly confined by a loaded gun being pointed at him whether they pointed it at him inside or outside of the truck was if he was shot with no warning and did not see it coming at all. And we will never know that.
 
Stop the nasty tone that has croppedup in this thread. If you can't post 100% respectfully, then don't post at all, or we can make that decision for you.

Also, when someone asks respectfully for a link to information you have given, provide the link instead of just restating your opinion over and over in caps.
 
Thanks for this Mrs T. I was using the actual media tweets, not Bill's timeline.
MS did not testify he removed the seats, and it was indicated by media sources the main lights in the hanger turned on at 3:23am.

BBM
From Susan Clairmont
Why did you cut the carpets, seatbelts? Why not run? Smich: "It didn't go through my mind at that time. I did what he told me to do." May 19, 2016
How long was Dell gone getting gas? Smich doesn't recall. May 19, 2016
"You wash Mr. Bosma's vehicle?" Smich says yes. Had to turn vehicle around because hose wasn't long enough. Takes a while, horrible scene. May 19, 2016
Smich agrees he helped Millard remove the seats. How long did that take? Smich doesn't recall. Smich says they used socket wrench. May 19, 2016
3:23 a.m. Main lights come on in hangar. They're inside cleaning truck. Jun 02, 2016

From Adam Carter
Smich says Millard drove Bosma's truck to Schlatman's work area at the hangar. Smich followed in the Yukon. #Bosma #TimBosma May 11, 2016
Smich says he got an exacto knife out of the Yukon and cut out the carpet, the seatbelts, while Millard left to get gas for the Yukon #Bosma May 11, 2016
Smich says Millard left again and came back with tools. They then removed the seats. #TimBosma #Bosma May 11, 2016
At 3:23 a.m., the main lights are on in the hangar, and they're gutting the truck, Leitch says. #TimBosma #Bosma Jun 02, 2016

This is not clear to me that MS was working in the dark the entire time, mechanics bays have their own lighting and the truck was in SS' work area

Where in my post did I say that MS tried to remove the seats?


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I'll add, after Friday's part of the charge and this weekends interesting banter and discussion.

Things I despise in court: Feelings. I'm sorry, I know it comes across cold. But a courtroom is a place for Law, not a place feelings of sadness, revenge etc etc. The words "justice for Tim" etc have nothing to do there, or anywhere near a legal discussion. Because then, one is making decision on hate and sorrow, not on fact and logic. I cannot develope hate toward an accused, despite the evidence, I do not know that person well enought hate them. I can revile them for what they have done, if they are found guilty. I cannot and will not despise someones alleged actions, only those actions which are proven in court and to which he/she is found guilty of.

My verdict: Millard is guilty of Second degree. I think he was prepared to kill, but did not explicitly intend and plan to kill Tim. Smich's story of DM having the gun and putting it into his sachel is logical and physical evidence reinforces this. I conclude that he did not explicitly plan Tim's death because he did not have clean up at all prepared. I beleive the incinerator was for disposal of LB's body or evidence, and maybe was considered IF things went sidways, but I don't think DM had planned specifically for TB to die.

Verdit for Smich: Smich was an accessory after the fact. Yes, he knows more than he is letting on. But the crown didn't prove it I don't think. Physical evidence does not poiint to MS having been immediately present or within vicinity of the shooting, which reinforces his story, in that there was not blood or GSR in the yukon which he was driving. Which means either he had a shower, wore a body condom, or was not present to the shooting. He did help clean up after the fact. He was guilty of conspiracy to commit an indictable offence (theft over $5k), and AatF.

The Gun: I bet MS knows where it is or where abouts. But it doesnt help him OR DM if he gives it up, despite what anyone says. I do beleive that it was Millards, and that DM tried to frame smich by sending it his way. If Smich was the shooter, he would try to distance himself from the weapon, not control it, especially with the heat on and DM in jail. I think Smiches story is accurate in how it came to him, and that he disposed of it.

So: DM in the second degree, and Smich not guilty. I predict the jury will decide DM in the first, and smich manslaughter.

If you are prepared to murder and then do murder that is first degree murder. You may not think it is likely that you will have to murder but if you come prepared and you end up having to then it is first degree. I feel it will be first degree for both.
 
Where in my post did I say that MS tried to remove the seats?
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You didn't, I had asked Oreck to link where MS says he removed seats in the dark.
But then you linked from BillAndrew's timeline regarding the hanger lights, however I was asking Oreck to link for me where MS said he was removing seats, and how he concluded
he was doing this job alone in the dark.
It's been cleared up now though, as per my post from MSM tweets, MS did not say he stayed at the hanger to remove the seats, and we are unsure if it was dark as the main hanger lights came on at 323am
however as I stated - most mechanic's bays do have their own lighting whereby you do not need all the main lighting on to work, and the truck was parked in SS' work area. Maybe a mechanic could weigh in on this. (however I do have experience with mechanics work areas).

I don't think MS was truthful when he said he stayed at the hanger to remove the seats and floor mats.
I have removed seats and floor mats from vehicles before and it is no easy job.
Definitely not something I would try in the dark.
There was no video evidence of him working with a flashlight.
The seat tie down bolts are hard to get at in full light even if you know where they are.
The door sills would have to come off to wash under them.
I suspect SS might have lent a helping hand early next morn.
MS and his lawyer tailored his testimony to fit the disclosures.
He is GAC.

MS said he began removing carpet and seat belts when DM left. And there were lights in the hanger. Not sure where you're getting he was doing this in the dark? We saw lights from the hanger in the video evidence when someone opened the door to check on the incinerator outside.

People are upset about misinformation here. Please quote your sources for this. Thanks
 
I went back and read through the tweets from MH, SC and AC. MH didn't specify dates and SC said it was "the week of" May 6th that MS blew past him and "the next day" told him he had *advertiser censored**d up. AC had no date in his tweets, only on his live blog. So I guess it's another one of those things that we have to choose which reporter to believe. I do find it hard to believe that Daly knew the exact date that happened though. He didn't seem to know what date anything happened and, when Dungey suggested things were pretty hazy, he said "This whole train of events is just kind of jammed together."

I believe that DM met MS at the apartment on the 10th, but MS had texted him to tell him that he was around the corner.

The fact that you see them on AC's live blog, but yet not on AC's tweets, tells us that we are obviously not getting all of the info via tweets. This is the very same person doing both, and both at the same time too, and yet he mentions on one of them - live-, while on the other one, also live, he doesn't mention, but yet he doesn't pull stuff out of nowhere to put on the one and not the other. I seriously don't know how the man does it. He deserves one huge raise when this is wrapped up, imho. It appears that perhaps dates were not mentioned in the Crown's questions.. but I don't believe Crown can do leading questions on their own witness anyway. The dates were in fact mentioned by both defence lawyers during cross. I can surmise from that, that BD must have had the dates in his statement, which was done way back 3 years ago, which could explain why BD didn't offer them up on his own during his examination in chief by the Crown, otherwise both defence lawyers wouldn't have had those dates, or have used the same dates as one another. moo.

Everyone is of course entitled to believe what they want, but there certainly is no proof as far as I can see, that the date was May 10th when MS first told BD that he f'd up, while there does seem to be some kind of proof that he did say it at the beginning of the week. It was noted at the time by at least one of the journos that it was confusing testimony all around during BD's testimony.. whether that was due to the bouncing around of questions relating to different time periods, or whether BD was getting the events of different time periods mixed up, but yet not mixed up on his police statement 3 years ago, or if the Crown was getting BD's events mixed up on different dates, one can only guess.In any event, my belief, after looking specifically into what has been reported at the time of testimony, is that it was the 7th, because to me, in addition to the testimony, everything else also fits.. the being dropped off by DM in the yukon, the cell records confirm that DM was dropping him off, we have testimony that he and Marlena were being dropped off, BD said himself that Marlena came 'back' to give him the weed, the being told to scram, the being together also the following day, when we already know that MS and DM had not gotten together, the fact DM wasn't yet arrested, BD questioning MS as to why he rushed past him on the one day and the answer MS gave him.. all of it makes sense for me. To me, it sounds like MS was perhaps the only one thinking seriously on what had just occurred... trying to keep BD away, not wanting to have him involved, feeling scared that he and DM would be watched, and here he was dealing drugs, etc. Meanwhile, DM sounds like he has lost it, ie, la-dee-da, Ima have a nice bath now that phase 1 of mission digestion is complete, then a nice nap is in order, to feel nice and refreshed. Those are just my impressions, and I think they're good ones, based on what we have as evidence. moo

Similar to what one of our WS members posted about what the judge had said on Friday about the 2 dogs and the empty food bowls... none of that got tweeted either completely missed by all of them. We are seriously missing much more than anyone knows. Some may be relevant, some may not be, we will never know unless someone tells us word for word, *every* word. Tweeting is wonderful for an at-the-moment, by-the-moment playback, but it is not good for getting all the testimony and/or facts recorded. If I owned The Spec, I would have a tweeter tweeting live AND a reporter who can accurate do shorthand on hand to get the entire scoop of what is said, and then have one tweet throughout the day and perhaps do regular opinion pieces, and the other taking really thorough notes and writing a comprehensive and unbiased news article at the end of each day. Why have 2 tweeters from the same publication if then we can't rely on either one of them to have reported accurately, in the event they tweet different things or have one omit one thing and the other insert another thing that the other omitted? Unfortunately I don't own The Spec.

PS Why was DM meeting MS at the apartment on the 10th, in the theory mentioned above, if MS hadn't moved into the apartment until after DM's arrest?
 
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