Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #3

[Juballee]

From the photos we have seen thus far of DM's incinerator, it is difficult to gain perspective on the size.. we can see from that Dr Rogers headshot that the opening is much much larger than her head.. but if you look at the picture with the farmer, it looks like if we took his head and put it on top of that incincerator in the photo with him, his head would be looking tiny as well. All we seem to have been told, is that it is some 11' tall, including the trailer height, there hasn't really been any reference to length and width. This photo could be the same unit or a different one. On the last photo below, we can get more of a perspective on the unit in relation to Dr Rogers.. keeping in mind that the incinerator is still on its trailer.

Rogers is crouching or sitting in the incinerator. See her standing beside it, and how standing on the ground, her head is just about level with the hatch? Now look at how high off the ground the trailer is and subtract that. Then subtract the space inside for the bottom level when the ashes fall down to, and subtract the space required for the burner tubes that she must have been squatting on, and you will see that there is no way that picture is of her standing inside the incinerator.

 

[MsSherlock]

He saw the plume when he was letting his first group of cows out. By the time he had milked the second set and was letting them out, the plume was gone. He said it was unusual but nothing to alarm him.

Thanks ABro. IMO, this is a clear example of how something is said in court, summarized in MSM and the publics attempt to reconstruct the story based on that one sound clip or quote. The reporters that are there everyday are giving us a news article- not a transcript. IMO we have to have some patience and understand the shear volume of evidence and number of witnesses the Crown is tasked with organizing and presenting. There was a time when we speculated the heck out of everything but now we're finally at the moment of truth. If it's important to this case we will have expert testimony in concern to it. There'll probably be more "regular joes" whose little piece of info is also important to the Crown: the diary farmer, the dirt biker, the cash cropper.
By the end of this trial, all of our questions will be answered and the verdict will be "beyond a reasonable doubt".
MOO

 

[Gibson67]

just wanted to touch on the fact that airport incinerators are not uncommon for burning trash and jet fuel. I wonder if the purchase was legit for the hangar he did purchase it when his Dad was alive..the intention at the hangar was to do aircraft maintenance, refueling etc..but then that never flew. I have been finding alot of links that suggest incinerating at airports is more economical than paying for someone to pick up all the waste and surprisingly burns off efficiently. I just don't understand why he would tell the company he bought it from that it was for animals from his farm? He could have just said it was for waste at the airport....or is this something that will come up in cross? We have yet to hear from the incinerator purchase right? Maybe crown left that part out and only disclosed the animal part..maybe it was purchased for both?

http://journaltimes.com/news/local/...cle_10ce7b1c-4594-11e0-a836-001cc4c002e0.html

Typical flight trash includes plastic or paper plates, cups, silverware and various kinds of food containers, as well as used beverage cans and bottles. “That’s why they use plastic silverware,” Mann said. “It burns.”

That may conjure up images of filthy, foul-smelling smoke and unhealthy chemical emissions. But Mann said three U.S. agencies have approved the process, and the incinerator burns too hot to pollute.

I know this is U.S and I wonder what laws Canada has

Then the airport bought a smaller incinerator for its own waste. Named the Smartash, it burned leftover jet fuel

this is another article I found on the use of an incinerator at a fly in camp in Yellowknife

Incinerator & garbage disposal.; We have converted a 500 gallon fuel tank into an incinerator
with a metal door and garbage that is stored inside is protected from wildlife and the wind and
elements. The incinerator is located at our land fill/burying site at the far end on the runway.
Garbage is collected daily and is separated and transported by ATV to the incinerator. We use all
left over and dirty gasoline, diesel fuel, Av Gas and Jet B as accelerant to burn the garbage. The
garbage is left in the incinerator and turned over a number of times before it is put into
containers for burying. This results in multiple burns so that what is left is relatively clean ashes,
metal, and glass non combustibles

http://www.mvlwb.ca/Boards/mv/Regis...ill and Waste Management Plans - May21-13.pdf

 

[Juballee]

just wanted to touch on the fact that airport incinerators are not uncommon for burning trash and jet fuel. I wonder if the purchase was legit for the hangar he did purchase it when his Dad was alive..the intention at the hangar was to do aircraft maintenance, refueling etc..but then that never flew. I have been finding alot of links that suggest incinerating at airports is more economical than paying for someone to pick up all the waste and surprisingly burns off efficiently. I just don't understand why he would tell the company he bought it from that it was for animals from his farm? He could have just said it was for waste at the airport....or is this something that will come up in cross? We have yet to hear from the incinerator purchase right? Maybe crown left that part out and only disclosed the animal part..maybe it was purchased for both?

http://journaltimes.com/news/local/...cle_10ce7b1c-4594-11e0-a836-001cc4c002e0.html

Typical flight trash includes plastic or paper plates, cups, silverware and various kinds of food containers, as well as used beverage cans and bottles. “That’s why they use plastic silverware,” Mann said. “It burns.”

That may conjure up images of filthy, foul-smelling smoke and unhealthy chemical emissions. But Mann said three U.S. agencies have approved the process, and the incinerator burns too hot to pollute.

I know this is U.S and I wonder what laws Canada has

Then the airport bought a smaller incinerator for its own waste. Named the Smartash, it burned leftover jet fuel

this is another article I found on the use of an incinerator at a fly in camp in Yellowknife

Incinerator & garbage disposal.; We have converted a 500 gallon fuel tank into an incinerator
with a metal door and garbage that is stored inside is protected from wildlife and the wind and
elements. The incinerator is located at our land fill/burying site at the far end on the runway.
Garbage is collected daily and is separated and transported by ATV to the incinerator. We use all
left over and dirty gasoline, diesel fuel, Av Gas and Jet B as accelerant to burn the garbage. The
garbage is left in the incinerator and turned over a number of times before it is put into
containers for burying. This results in multiple burns so that what is left is relatively clean ashes,
metal, and glass non combustibles

http://www.mvlwb.ca/Boards/mv/Regis...ill and Waste Management Plans - May21-13.pdf

Thanks for this research, it makes me wonder if this incinerator was cheaper than one marketed for burning trash. I imagine that SS told the company rep that it would be for farm animals for warranty reasons. Most products are only warrantied for normal use, and stating that you will be using it for a purpose outside of their recommended use would likely invalidate any warranty that might come with the product.

Having it on wheels would make it useful for bringing it to each plane's work site instead of hauling the trash to it in one location.

 

[Juballee]

Has anyone tried to line up the cell phone activity to the dairy farmer's testimony? He said he saw the smoke plumes "around 6am" on either the Tuesday (7th) or Wednesday (8th). Here's DM's cell activity on those days:

Tuesday May 7
5:55am - sent texts from hangar
7:52am - sent text from Oakville
8:49am - pinging in Etobicoke

Wednesday May 8
2:59am - sent a text from Etobicoke
5:43am - sent a text from Milton
7:30am - sent a text from hangar

I realize the cell data doesn't give a complete story, but I'm finding it difficult to draw a connection to the dairy farmer's testimony. Could MS (or someone else) have gone to the farm without DM to take care of burning the seats?

Thank you for this simplified phone timeline for DM's phone on the two possible mornings. Do we know where MS's phone was pinging for those mornings as well?

 

[billandrew]

People place way too much emphasis on one photo, forgetting that the angle and lighting of photos can cause major differences and distortions.

The press has not reported on a square burn mark with even edges because there was zero testimony about such a shape. It's most likely something that just appears that way in one photo because of the angle of the photo.

I agree with ABro here. Even with several photos it's difficult to make out the actual shape of the burn area. There do appear to be obvious differences between the two burn sites, though. One site is much larger with a more obscure shape, and the ground within it is stamped down more and there is less corn stalk ruffage. The second burn area is smaller, has a more defined shape, and the corn stalks are not cleared away.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Thanks for this research, it makes me wonder if this incinerator was cheaper than one marketed for burning trash. I imagine that SS told the company rep that it would be for farm animals for warranty reasons. Most products are only warrantied for normal use, and stating that you will be using it for a purpose outside of their recommended use would likely invalidate any warranty that might come with the product.

Having it on wheels would make it useful for bringing it to each plane's work site instead of hauling the trash to it in one location.

I did find a site where listed all 6 models. Each model had a small scripting beside it. Sorry can't find it now but this is what I remember and if I find it again I will post it.
SN250, burns up to 250 lbs and common with Funeral homes and vetranerians.
SN500, poultry and sheep
SN3000, waste companies
One in between the 500 and 3000 stated for larger animal operations and one for biotec labs. The model numbers indicate the pounds each unit can hold.

So with that, IMO I'm going to say no on the warranty, as these are not just sold for farming. As already stated/asked..why would he claim for farming when he could has said aviation? Cause we are dealing with non-thinkers!! Lol

The ECO brand line is very simular to the Eliminator. Here is their site.
http://www.ecoconcepts.org/index.php/ct-menu-item-3

 

[Juballee]

I just wanted to point something out. Do you remember when the police officer was being cross examined by TD, and he saying that it would have been impossible for the officer to have entered the trailer via the side door, and gone into the truck.. and that instead, he had to have gone in the side door and been at the box part of the truck?

I noticed that each side of the trailer has the doors at very different locations.. the driver's side, side door, definitely goes into the box portion, while the passenger side looks much more forward, so that it would open up to the passenger door. Did the officer say which side of the truck was entered?

Passenger side trailer door is showing on this photo

Driver's side showing in this photo below

Interior photo showing where the driver's side box is located in relation to the side door of the trailer:

Thanks for this insightful post, that is a good catch. I wish we could see more clearly where the man door on the passenger side opens up to in relation to the truck. It looks to me like it would be about at the hinge and just in front of the passenger door, but I could be wrong. Would climbing through that door force the person to go up over the hood to enter the trailer? I'm sure they wouldn't have climbed through the broken window.

I must be confused, was the testimony that the officer climbed in through either of those side man door to access the truck interior? Because that would seem I possible to me after looking at how tight of a squeeze it was in these photos. I would have to assume that he climbed through the back window after accessing the trailer from the rear doors, (but now that I am looking at this photo, I cannot see the back window of the truck, is it safe to assume that is a trick of the lighting?)

 

[billandrew]

Thank you for this simplified phone timeline for DM's phone on the two possible mornings. Do we know where MS's phone was pinging for those mornings as well?

MS's phone was turned off until late Tues morning when he was back in Oakville. There's no info presented for his phone on Wed morning.

Also, curiously the MS/MM phone pinged in the area of the farm on Tues night around 11:30pm. DM's phone pinged at the hangar around 9pm, but then didn't ping again until after midnight where he seems to be heading back toward Mississauga/Etobicoke from either the hangar or farm. It's not clear if DM and MS were together that night or if they were separate. We really don't have a complete picture of what was happening based on the cell activity.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Sorry if *speaking* out of turn, but it was on CMHL Radio's interview with a reporter who attended trial on Thursday - link was posted upthread.. posting again:

https://soundcloud.com/am900chml/fo...nes-found-in-the-incinerator-at-millards-farm

[video]https://soundcloud.com/am900chml/the-incinerator-that-was-found-on-millards-farm-that-had-human-bones-inside-had-been-cleaned-out#t=15:45[/video]

Listen to *all* of it, because it is really good! But the part you're asking about starts around 15:45

Just listened to both of those and I just wanted to say I really appreciate Alex Pierson's perspective on this. She even called the incinerator a "death machine" the same as I did. I hadn't had time earlier to listen to these so thanks for providing the links.

Just to clarify that the info about the trailer being custom built for the incinerator at the hangar, is in the second link.

 

[ABro]

I agree with ABro here. Even with several photos it's difficult to make out the actual shape of the burn area. There do appear to be obvious differences between the two burn sites, though. One site is much larger with a more obscure shape, and the ground within it is stamped down more and there is less corn stalk ruffage. The second burn area is smaller, has a more defined shape, and the corn stalks are not cleared away.

Here is what my notes says that forensic officer Annette Huys said about the burn sites.

- smaller one in foreground, larger one in background

- i could smell accelerant i guess gasoline some strong odour i thought in my mind it smelled fresh if i could still smell an accelerant

-smaller one, quite dark corn stocks

-larger one looked clean, things had been removed or pulled away, no cornstalks

-she found one piece of charred wood, it seemed strange (to her) there was no other wood there

 

[Juballee]

I did find a site where listed all 6 models. Each model had a small scripting beside it. Sorry can't find it now but this is what I remember and if I find it again I will post it.
SN250, burns up to 250 lbs and common with Funeral homes and vetranerians.
SN500, poultry and sheep
SN3000, waste companies
One in between the 500 and 3000 stated for larger animal operations and one for biotec labs. The model numbers indicate the pounds each unit can hold.

So with that, IMO I'm going to say no on the warranty, as these are not just sold for farming. As already stated/asked..why would he claim for farming when he could has said aviation? Cause we are dealing with non-thinkers!! Lol

The ECO brand line is very simular to the Eliminator. Here is their site.
http://www.ecoconcepts.org/index.php/ct-menu-item-3

Just because a company makes different models of the same basic product does not mean that their warranties are the same for each specific product, especially if they have different stated intended uses. For example, a watch company may make one watch for every day use and one watch that is water-proof and both may have warranties, but the warranty for the water-proof watch would warranty it's use under water, while the other one would not have such a warranty, and water immersion would be outside of its normal use and therefore not covered under the warranty.

Stating to a company that you intended to buy their product but then use it for a purpose outside of the company's intended use would be extremely foolish in my opinion, it would void your warranty before you even got the product.

In my opinion, I think it will come down to a price difference, I bet there was some savings to be had by getting the farm model as opposed to the industrial waste model.

 

[Abitcountry]

BBM

Wasn't this said by someone on here? I'm pretty sure this was not witness testimony in court, and shouldn't be stated as such.

good morning redheart.....are you saying that I cannot refer to something said in a post that links to the conversation or my own thought........

 

[MsSherlock]

I did find a site where listed all 6 models. Each model had a small scripting beside it. Sorry can't find it now but this is what I remember and if I find it again I will post it.
SN250, burns up to 250 lbs and common with Funeral homes and vetranerians.
SN500, poultry and sheep
SN3000, waste companies
One in between the 500 and 3000 stated for larger animal operations and one for biotec labs. The model numbers indicate the pounds each unit can hold.

So with that, IMO I'm going to say no on the warranty, as these are not just sold for farming. As already stated/asked..why would he claim for farming when he could has said aviation? Cause we are dealing with non-thinkers!! Lol

The ECO brand line is very simular to the Eliminator. Here is their site.
http://www.ecoconcepts.org/index.php/ct-menu-item-3

Here's the info and link

Super Nova makes the following models:
• SN250: for animal shelters, veterinarians, funeral homes, & law enforcement.
• SN500: for small poultry and turkey farmers.
• SN1000: for larger poultry and turkey farmers.
• SN1500 & 2000: for meat processors and swine farmers.
• SN3000: for large meat processors, swine, cattle, and horse farmers, and landfills.

https://webcache.googleusercontent....24788+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=safari

 

[Juballee]

MS's phone was turned off until late Tues morning when he was back in Oakville. There's no info presented for his phone on Wed morning.

Also, curiously the MS/MM phone pinged in the area of the farm on Tues night around 11:30pm. DM's phone pinged at the hangar around 9pm, but then didn't ping again until after midnight where he seems to be heading back toward Mississauga/Etobicoke from either the hangar or farm. It's not clear if DM and MS were together that night or if they were separate. We really don't have a complete picture of what was happening based on the cell activity.

Thanks for the info, that is very interesting. I wonder why there is no phone info from him for those times? Who was at the farm burning the seats then?

Slightly off topic, but I suggest we name the MS/MM phone the 'Juice' phone to keep it straight.

 

[Gibson67]

another theory is that when the incinerator returned to the farm and cleaned out..they wanted to hide it in the barn..perhaps putting a freshly used incinerator was not wise to put inside without cleaning out the contents (too hot)...maybe one of the burn areas was where they backed up the incinerator and emptied the contents onto the ground.
Then there was testimony that it looked like it was raked up..so maybe after it cooled the cremains were then moved from the burn site to somewhere else. It's possible we are soon going to hear more testimony of the burn area with all the flags? Has it been said which site the seatbelts came from?

 

[billandrew]

Thanks for the info, that is very interesting. I wonder why there is no phone info from him for those times? Who was at the farm burning the seats then?

Slightly off topic, but I suggest we name the MS/MM phone the 'Juice' phone to keep it straight.

My opinion is that MS was more active in turning off his phone than DM. He probably knew that his location could be traced later. And if this is true, it's interesting that MS didn't turn his phone off until AFTER they picked up TB on Monday night. Why wouldn't he turn it off before he left Oakville? So he gets recorded travelling from Oakville to Ancaster, and then his phone turns off. One possibility is that he didn't expect a murder to take place. JMO. Another possibility is that he just forgot or didn't think to turn his phone off until after they picked up TB. Or his phone ran out of battery. Who knows.

 

[LoyalSleuth]

My opinion is that MS was more active in turning off his phone than DM. He probably knew that his location could be traced later. And if this is true, it's interesting that MS didn't turn his phone off until AFTER they picked up TB on Monday night. Why wouldn't he turn it off before he left Oakville? So he gets recorded travelling from Oakville to Ancaster, and then his phone turns off. One possibility is that he didn't expect a murder to take place. JMO. Another possibility is that he just forgot or didn't think to turn his phone off until after they picked up TB. Or his phone ran out of battery. Who knows.

I completely agree.

 

[Ontario Mom]

good morning redheart.....are you saying that I cannot refer to something said in a post that links to the conversation or my own thought........

I think the comment was in reference to a poster here on this forum saying they saw a black truck towing something odd looking. Which I'm sure is entirely possible but for purposes of establishing fact v. rumor we can't really rely on such a statement.

moo.

 

[lanman]

Wow...just out of curiosity I checked out Tristar Dairy in Streetview. Couldn't believe it when I saw that you could view images from Aug 2012. Look what's in the parking lot!