Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #3

[kramkat]

There hasn't been any evidence submitted yet that any of the bones/fragments or tooth (or blood for that matter), belong to TB. Dr. Rogers can identify which parts of the body/bones the little fragments came from, and that they are human, and that at least one of them proves the bone belonged to a male human, but she hasn't confirmed that they belong to any specific person. In Dr. Rogers' diagram, I believe she is only showing bones of a human male, but not specifically of TB.

Next week's dentist witness may also be able to testify that the tooth belonged to a human, perhaps a male(?), and perhaps the age range. It would be great if the tooth contained DNA, or an identifying filling or something, but I'm not holding my breath on that.

This will likely be one of those pieces of circumstantial evidence, where the jury will have to ask how reasonable it would be to doubt whether the bones and tooth belonged to TB, considering all of the other corresponding circumstances. MOO

I am sorry in advance if this was addressed already, but I am JUST catching up.
I know that no evidence was submitted about DNA, but with Dr. Rogers stating at the end of her testimony that she vacuumed the rest of the remains to give to the family, getting choked up about it, Mr. Hank Bosma hugging her in the hallway, there must be evidence of DNA of what she found. If I were on the jury panel, this scene would have definitely helped with my thoughts of whose remains were found. :moo:

 

[amis_]

Ah, good catch, I just skimmed through the evidence. Can sympathize with Bosma's mother, Mary, and why she would rather skip the courtroom today - evidence is painful to look at. ADD: Also impressed by Dr. Rogers' ability to identify the bones with such precision - glad she's testifying for this trial.

I haven't caught up on the forum yet as I was in the courtroom yesterday, but I must say that Dr Rogers was truly impressive. Her CV is incredible and she is one cookie you don't want to mess with. She knows her stuff. MOO

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[LoyalSleuth]

I am sorry in advance if this was addressed already, but I am JUST catching up.
I know that no evidence was submitted about DNA, but with Dr. Rogers stating at the end of her testimony that she vacuumed the rest of the remains to give to the family, getting choked up about it, Mr. Hank Bosma hugging her in the hallway, there must be evidence of DNA of what she found. If I were on the jury panel, this scene would have definitely helped with my thoughts of whose remains were found. :moo:

I agree KramKat, we don't need DNA to confirm those bones were TB's all the evidence presented so far, IMO,confirms this. However the jury will / should hear scientific proof that it is.

 

[Wollander77]

I did some reading the other night, trying to find out at which point bones can no longer provide enough DNA for identification. I read lots of stuff, and found one article that was particularly relevant, but now, of course, I can't find it. I believe it mentioned however, that teeth disappear at a certain temperature... before the bones become unable to give DNA. I agree, they can do amazing things.. but I'm not sure if they can extract DNA from ancient bones and teeth that would tell them which particular human they belonged to.. or whether they can simply tell.. yes human, yes female, yes aged btwn 30-50, yes they've been here for 70-100 years?

Now you've gone and inspired me to look this up as well It looks like forensic scientists can pinpoint up to someone's paternity, ancestry and/or "phenotypic information" (ie. blood type, etc.) with DNA identification from teeth, and sometimes from bones. They can also use the help of dentists / dental records to verify the placement of someone's teeth in the mouth, even after they've been burnt:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...d_for_Extracting_DNA_From_Old_and_Burned_Bone

But like you've mentioned, if the teeth had been completely blackened and charred, the DNA stored within would've been too degraded for extraction (I can only find the abstract to the report - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20832378).

I agree that circumstantial evidence seem to point, almost without doubt, that TB's body had been in that incinerator, but I'm eager to see the kind of information different experts can provide on the blood, DNA samples, etc. taken from the site, based on the quality of evidence. It'll hopefully whittle down the skepticism that some in the jury might still have after the Crown rests its case.

*SIA to those who're ready to move on from discussions of teeth, but I find the little steps to securing evidence pretty fascinating. I feel like I need a refresher course in genetics while reading up on this trial - thanks for the valuable insight everyone has brought to the table

 

[andreww]

I agree KramKat, we don't need DNA to confirm those bones were TB's all the evidence presented so far, IMO,confirms this. However the jury will / should hear scientific proof that it is.

Is there such proof? I don't think DNA can be recovered. Possibly by that tooth?

 

[matou]

Is there such proof? I don't think DNA can be recovered. Possibly by that tooth?

Maybe from the blood found on the outside of the incinerator. If it's Tim's then the likelihood is that it's was his body in there. JMO

 

[kramkat]

Is there such proof? I don't think DNA can be recovered. Possibly by that tooth?

I tend to think there would have to be DNA proof for them to give the "remains" to the family, no?

On another thought, it was asked what was most shocking about this case. For me, a lot. Even though some of our speculations from 2013 have been already brought up, some new info from the Crown's opening, and seeing incinerator (with Dr. Rogers inside), make my stomach curl. This case is "next door" for me (figuratively and literally) and the gruesome acts have lasting impressions. Dr. Rogers testimony left my heart broken for the entire Bosma family and friends. :cry:

 

[andreww]

Maybe from the blood found on the outside of the incinerator. If it's Tim's then the likelihood is that it's was his body in there. JMO

That really doesn't prove anything though. I mean it should be pretty evident to anybody thats been paying attention that those are TBs remains. But there is alway the possibility that TB wasn't the only person that Dellon "Eliminated". But I'd say the chances of that are slim to none at best.

 

[andreww]

I tend to think there would have to be DNA proof for them to give the "remains" to the family, no?

On another thought, it was asked what was most shocking about this case. For me, a lot. Even though some of our speculations from 2013 have been already brought up, some new info from the Crown's opening, and seeing incinerator (with Dr. Rogers inside), make my stomach curl. This case is "next door" for me (figuratively and literally) and the gruesome acts have lasting impressions. Dr. Rogers testimony left my heart broken for the entire Bosma family and friends. :cry:

I don't think there is any way to match ashes. I think the totality of the evidence leads to the obvious conclusion that those remains are Tim's.

And I was just saying that the other day. I live literally steps from where Millard grew up, went to school and was arrested. Very unsettling to know that such evil was so close. An in an upscale neighbourhood no less!

 

[Wollander77]

I tend to think there would have to be DNA proof for them to give the "remains" to the family, no?

There's been a study done to see if it's possible to extract DNA from grounded up ashes, but the results are unreliable at best - hence why they were probably able to release the "remains" to the family:
http://www.isfg.org/files/08b8e97c1d120daa1b8997f0ba2b49c6f0961e22.03018302_436117257749.pdf

I feel the Defense would still have to prove "reasonable" doubt in the absence of DNA from the remains - ie. can they feasibly or even want to argue there's another dead person's body in DM's incinerator (which most people would have no knowledge of successfully operating let alone possess awareness of its existence on the leased farmlands). IMO, they can't, but it'd be interesting to see them try.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Think of all the things these guys would have had to do differently in order to evade capture.

The Lucas Bate cell phone was a dead end, but it's calls mapped DM's home for LE. The phone also called several other truck sellers - DM would have had to have used several phones. DM had the phone and his own phone on as he travelled - he should have never taken his phone with him. Then the ID: he should have worn a disguise and covered his tattoos, and worn gloves since he left fingerprints. He never should have bought the incinerator and instead used a burn pile. And so on.

It was an ill-conceived idea from the very beginning,<modsnip>.

I think <modsnip>, he was incredibly sloppy - because in his prior experience, that had worked.

 

[billandrew]

I don't think there is any way to match ashes. I think the totality of the evidence leads to the obvious conclusion that those remains are Tim's.

And I was just saying that the other day. I live literally steps from where Millard grew up, went to school and was arrested. Very unsettling to know that such evil was so close. An in an upscale neighbourhood no less!

BBM. I believe this is exactly how the prosecution will present it. TB was last seen with two guys who are caught on video igniting an incinerator on the same night he went missing. Human remains are subsequently found inside the incinerator and TB's blood is on the hatch. Add in the rest of the evidence and there is more than enough to meet a criminal standard of proof that will put these guys in jail for a long, long time. MOO.

 

[andreww]

Think of all the things these guys would have had to do differently in order to evade capture.

The Lucas Bate cell phone was a dead end, but it's calls mapped DM's home for LE. The phone also called several other truck sellers - DM would have had to have used several phones. DM had the phone and his own phone on as he travelled - he should have never taken his phone with him. Then the ID: he should have worn a disguise and covered his tattoos, and worn gloves since he left fingerprints. He never should have bought the incinerator and instead used a burn pile. And so on.

It was an ill-conceived idea from the very beginning, but no doubt DM was emboldened by his earlier successes in killing LB and WM without detection.

I think because DM had killed before, he was incredibly sloppy - because in his prior experience, that had worked.

Really, if he'd just covered up his tattoos he might have had a chance. He used the bate phone to contact multiple people. So the phone tied the suspect to both Bosma and the other seller (Ivan?). The tattoo identified the bate phone user as Millard. The combination of the bate phone and DMs MSs personal phones tied them all together.

Remove the tattoo from the equation and there is a chance that Millard is still out there. If Millard gets a new Burner phone for each contact, he's probably still out there.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Really, if he'd just covered up his tattoos he might have had a chance. He used the bate phone to contact multiple people. So the phone tied the suspect to both Bosma and the other seller (Ivan?). The tattoo identified the bate phone user as Millard. The combination of the bate phone and DMs MSs personal phones tied them all together.

Remove the tattoo from the equation and there is a chance that Millard is still out there. If Millard gets a new Burner phone for each contact, he's probably still out there.

Right up till the point AJ sees the truck.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Really, if he'd just covered up his tattoos he might have had a chance. He used the bate phone to contact multiple people. So the phone tied the suspect to both Bosma and the other seller (Ivan?). The tattoo identified the bate phone user as Millard. The combination of the bate phone and DMs MSs personal phones tied them all together.

Remove the tattoo from the equation and there is a chance that Millard is still out there. If Millard gets a new Burner phone for each contact, he's probably still out there.

Well no, they checked the phones that were pinging towers in the area and tracked DM's, MS's and the Bate phone travelling together. I read of a recent jewellery store robbery that they solved in a similar manner, by getting cell tower dumps of all activity in the area and tracking phones that were communicating and travelling together at the time of the robbery. They would have had to ditch all their cells and call from a pay phone out of their area to set up the appointment to avoid being traced in this way.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Right up till the point AJ sees the truck.

"Could have got away with it if..." is a good exercise to see how strong the case is.

 

[deugirtni]

This brings up a point I had not noticed before, thanks. When DM had plans to have the truck painted, (before he cancelled them), and he was preparing the truck by removing the taillights and wording and such, why didn't he remove the vin numbers?

If I remember correctly, I don't think he prepared any of the interior of the vehicle for painting, and in fact DM told the paintshop that he only wanted the exterior painted. I am not sure on this, but if a vehicle is missing its VIN, I would think it would be a huge red flag. He couldn't exactly replace it with his *own* VIN, since the bodyshop likely already had a record of DM's VIN since they had previously done work for him, which would again be a red flag. TB's VIN, AFAIK, was never published, so there was nothing to check it against, in the event the bodyshop wanted to do so.

Imo, DM truly expected that he was going to get away with this, no questions asked... until some point on the Thursday, when he realized he had run out of time. Once again, he 'didn't hide it', and everything was out in the open (well, other than the bloody car seats and carpet, and trying to conceal both the incinerator and its official receipt, and well, I guess also the DVR that he asked his gf to hide for him, and I guess the removal of most of TB's ashes from the incinerator, the bogus cellphone ownership details, and of course, the gun.. he did in fact hide all of those things, or at least he tried to!).

 

[deugirtni]

I am sorry in advance if this was addressed already, but I am JUST catching up.
I know that no evidence was submitted about DNA, but with Dr. Rogers stating at the end of her testimony that she vacuumed the rest of the remains to give to the family, getting choked up about it, Mr. Hank Bosma hugging her in the hallway, there must be evidence of DNA of what she found. If I were on the jury panel, this scene would have definitely helped with my thoughts of whose remains were found. :moo:

They definitely believe the remains are TB's, there is no doubt about that. If they match blood evidence found on the incinerator with TB's blood, as they say they did, then there really is no doubt about the bones belonging to him as well... but it is possible that they will not have 100% DNA substantiation of that. MOO

 

[RandomName479]

anyone have the link handy for the twitter spreadsheet? Attempting a timeline with everything we have so far......TIA

 

[deugirtni]

Right up till the point AJ sees the truck.

Even then... when AJ contacted CS regarding the truck, he did not identify who or where, although I believe he did say the general location was in Waterloo (IIRC). If police had not by then already been onto DM due to the tattoo, would they have ever been able to put 2 and 2 together to show up at the hangar? I believe it was only because they took AJ's little info - 'Waterloo' (or Kitchener, or whatever he said) - and matched it with a name that had already come to light in the investigation, that they were able to zoom into determining what properties DM was associated with. I truly believe this case would be nothing without Igor's fine observation of a simple tattoo.. whether or not his memory was exact, it was enough to move the case forward in a huge way.