Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #3

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Just about VIN's, are they not stamped into part of the engine? How exactly do you remove one on purpose? (My brother bought a burnt-out car for restoration and the VIN had been wiped off by the heat of the fire....he intentionally had a non-standard-looking plate put in with the VIN so you could SEE it was replaced because that's what had happened; he wasn't trying to hide anything and actually wanted it to be apparent that the VIN was not original.)
 
Right up till the point AJ sees the truck.

I think a few things need to be clarified about Arthur Jennings' role.

He refused to give Crime Stoppers the location of the truck. They pleaded with him to do so, put him through to a police detective who asked him again and impressed upon him the importance of doing so, but he declined to provide the information. At this point Tim Bosma was still a Missing Person.

On Friday, when Jennings finally went to the police -- two entire days after seeing the truck -- it was only after he became aware that police had just visited the hangar.

We have no way of knowing if he would have gone to the police or phoned back Crime Stoppers otherwise.

And the police would not have been at the hangar without the information about the Ambition tattoo that Igor provided.

ETA: That said, Jennings did not try to present himself as a hero. He was clearly conflicted about his role in all this, torn between what he saw as his duties to his daughter and grandchildren and to report key information in the Bosma case.
 
pretty unbelievable his Lawyer did not try and convince him to just plead guilty..don't know how after seeing the disclosure he ever thought he would be able to raise any reasonable doubt..but I do have a question..lets just say the gun was hidden by Smich and let's just hypothetically say there was a struggle and Tim had grabbed the gun and it went off...could the defence retrieve the gun? If Smich believed there would be prints from Tim on the gun..could defence use the gun as evidence and have it tested or would it have to be given to crown first? I am pretty sure this didn't happen but was just curious of the way crown/defence operate..I am sure defence will have their own evidence is that correct? or are they there just to question and argue existing evidence?

I have no answers to this. I thought that LE was tasked with managing evidence collection, to be used by both Crown and defence. Defence can of course, call their own witnesses and provide their own testimony (and do not have to disclose it in advance to the Crown, unlike the Crown's responsibility). If the defence lawyer wanted to retrieve a murder weapon, imo, he would be prudent to have LE with him at the time, to preclude charges of tampering and/or contamination.

I was wondering something similar however. What if MS knows where the gun is (obviously), and he could provide its location, and he knew it didn't have his own prints on it (because perhaps he didn't use it), but he knows whose prints could potentially be ON the gun (DM?). Would it help with his case? I doubt it, since he was also a party to the crime, even if not pulling the actual trigger. For all we know, the gun may have already been retrieved.. and is in evidence.. we haven't gotten that far into the trial yet.

I am wondering.. what happens in a case where say, MS is willing to admit whatever his part was in a crime, but his accomplice and co-accused wants to deny any involvement whatsoever in the crime, wants to claim he wasn't even there, and MS is NOT willing to state any of the accomplice's involvement, and not willing to be a Crown witness against his accomplice.. he's just going to let the dice fall where it may, based on other evidence.

If MS doesn't take the stand in his own defence, because he will also be incriminating his accomplice at the same time, then he is risking doing a lot more time than he perhaps necessarily would have, if he had been willing to testify? Is the 'Code' amongst criminals so strong that it is potentially worth an extra 15 years of one's life?
 
Well no, they checked the phones that were pinging towers in the area and tracked DM's, MS's and the Bate phone travelling together. I read of a recent jewellery store robbery that they solved in a similar manner, by getting cell tower dumps of all activity in the area and tracking phones that were communicating and travelling together at the time of the robbery. They would have had to ditch all their cells and call from a pay phone out of their area to set up the appointment to avoid being traced in this way.

AFAIK the police were only able to tie the phones together after DM and MS were identified and their cell data was pulled. The fact that they were identified ties back to the tattoo.

Respectfully, I disagree that the police can work backwards from cell tower data to identify potential criminals based on locational correlations between phones. The technology to do this would need to be highly sophisticated, and in this case it would be further complicated by the fact that the Bate phone was pinging off WIND Mobile towers while DM's phone was pinging off Rogers towers. Not only that, but due to information privacy laws I'm not sure whether the police can access dumps of all cell activity in a given area. AFAIK they can only access information for persons of interest. They can't simply take all the information and work backwards to identify which person is the criminal. As always, I could be wrong... JMO.
 
AFAIK the police were only able to tie the phones together after DM and MS were identified and their cell data was pulled. The fact that they were identified ties back to the tattoo.

Respectfully, I disagree that the police can work backwards from cell tower data to identify potential criminals based on locational correlations between phones. The technology to do this would need to be highly sophisticated, and in this case it would be further complicated by the fact that the Bate phone was pinging off WIND Mobile towers while DM's phone was pinging off Rogers towers. Not only that, but due to information privacy laws I'm not sure whether the police can access dumps of all cell activity in a given area. AFAIK they can only access information for persons of interest. They can't simply take all the information and work backwards to identify which person is the criminal. As always, I could be wrong... JMO.

I think the law has recently changed http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cellphone-privacy-court-1.3401872

They used to be able to get cell tower dumps for investigations, but no longer.
 
I'm at the court right now. All I'm gonna say is....wow

Perhaps this is where the lawyers are earning their money. I imagine that the defense lawyers have to work hard to get evidence declared inadmissible and witnesses deemed unreliable.

After the trial is over and the suspects are neatly packed away in prison, will we get a chance to hear what transpired on these days when the jury was out? Or will we have to wait for the book? ABro, are you planning to publish a book?
 
Perhaps this is where the lawyers are earning their money. I imagine that the defense lawyers have to work hard to get evidence declared inadmissible and witnesses deemed unreliable.

After the trial is over and the suspects are neatly packed away in prison, will we get a chance to hear what transpired on these days when the jury was out? Or will we have to wait for the book? ABro, are you planning to publish a book?

Once the jury was sequestered to deliberate we heard about what happened in court while the jury was out, in the trials I have followed anyway.
 
I think the law has recently changed http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cellphone-privacy-court-1.3401872

They used to be able to get cell tower dumps for investigations, but no longer.

Wow, thank you for this. I can see how this would have worked well in the Bosma case. Since Igor's and Bosma's homes are pretty far away from each other, the police could have taken cell tower dumps from each of their areas around the times of the test drives, and then scanned for any phones that were present in both instances. Crazy!
 
I think a few things need to be clarified about Arthur Jennings' role.

He refused to give Crime Stoppers the location of the truck. They pleaded with him to do so, put him through to a police detective who asked him again and impressed upon him the importance of doing so, but he declined to provide the information. At this point Tim Bosma was still a Missing Person.

On Friday, when Jennings finally went to the police -- two entire days after seeing the truck -- it was only after he became aware that police had just visited the hangar.

We have no way of knowing if he would have gone to the police or phoned back Crime Stoppers otherwise.

And the police would not have been at the hangar without the information about the Ambition tattoo that Igor provided.

ETA: That said, Jennings did not try to present himself as a hero. He was clearly conflicted about his role in all this, torn between what he saw as his duties to his daughter and grandchildren and to report key information in the Bosma case.

Didn't AJ go to the LE with info on the Thursday after he spoke with his family and SS stormed out? I believe that is why the LE were there the Friday morning and why the truck was moved to Kleinberg. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
Didn't AJ go to the LE with info on the Thursday after he spoke with his family and SS stormed out? I believe that is why the LE were there the Friday morning and why the truck was moved to Kleinberg. Please correct me if I am wrong.

No you are mistaken about that. LE was at the hangar due to information about the tattoo. AJ did not go to the police until after he learned that the police had been at the hangar.

You are right that the truck was moved Thursday night, the same day AJ called it in to Crime Stoppers.
 
It is very hard to believe that DMs first crime was the murder of LB. Not saying that he killed anyone prior to that but I'll bet the farm that this guy wasn't as clean as his criminal record indicated.

ETA: Given Millard's record, I'd say the is a pretty good chance that the old guy that fell off the wing of the plane he was servicing, with only DM present, might not have been an accident either.

DM wasn't the only person present when the accident happened. Are you saying that you think the witness, the Aircraft Maintenance Engineer from JAZZ who was also working on the aileron, lied to the investigators to cover up a murder?

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Brantford-Airport-Distribution.pdf
 
No you are wrong about that. LE was at the hangar due to information about the tattoo. AJ did not go to the police until after he learned that the police had been at the hangar.

You are right that the truck was moved Thursday night, the same day AJ called it in to Crime Stoppers.

So the truck was moved on Thursday night, after SS found out about AJ's call to Crimestoppers and "blew up" on him. A possible correlation there? Imagine if the truck had still been at the hangar when the police came by the next day.
 
The more I think about AJ not telling the police where the truck was right away because he had to "talk to his family", the more I think it is not because he was afraid for his family's safety...I think he was worried that he was turning in his own SIL. He knew the importance of telling the police where the truck was..especially since they were pretty "impressing upon him" the importance of telling them. What is the only thing that could keep you from telling them? Thinking it was your own family member directly involved. MOO
 
No you are mistaken about that. LE was at the hangar due to information about the tattoo. AJ did not go to the police until after he learned that the police had been at the hangar.

You are right that the truck was moved Thursday night, the same day AJ called it in to Crime Stoppers.
<bbm>

Do we know how AJ found out the police were at the hangar?
 
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Do we know how AJ found out the police were at the hangar?

They did not provide details about this is in court. He just said he learned they were there after he came back from his errand at Home Depot. Nor do we know when exactly he went to the police other than it was after this. He did say that he wanted to be proactive and not reactive because neither he nor Shane were involved.
 
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