Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[Kamille]

Here's what I can't understand...
DM is the ringleader. He allegedly had a chop shop going in his hangar. There were stolen vehicles there when he was arrested, and I imagine countless others had passed through that hangar. After stealing so many vehicles and apparently knowing how to do just that, why does it suddenly change to an M.O. of calling, meeting and killing the target vehicle's owner? It makes no sense at all. And the psychopath reasoning is only speculation resulting from the presumption of guilt in cases yet to be tried IMO. So can someone please tell me why the act of stealing a vehicle, something they apparently are already good at, suddenly turns into this ridiculous, murderous mess? IMO it's just not as simple as some are seeing it. There's got to be more to the story. I mean, even the stolen Harley found in the hangar was previously listed on Kijiji, so mining the site for target vehicles may have already been a tactic they were employing, without killing the owner. TIA

ETA - and is it typical for the proprietor (ringleader) of an illegal chop shop to acquire the stolen vehicles himself? IMO he'd have some of his "entourage" do his dirty work for him, wouldn't he?

While it was reported in the beginning that the hangar appeared to be full of stolen vehicles, and the place looked like a chop shop, that has never been confirmed. The trailer and bike...yes they were stolen...although I personally think he was after the trailer and the bike was a bonus. I think all the trailers may have been stolen and modified. Easy to steal trailers.

A hangar full of stolen vehicles turned into less than 10 vehicles in the hangar. We are not seeing any evidence so far that any of the other vehicles in the hangar were stolen and I personally doubt that they were stolen. I think they were just heaps that he got from people trying to get rid of cars that he was either given or negotiated for a cheap price and that he and his friends liked to play with and rebuild. Didn't they drive all the way to Nevada or somewhere to get the Camaro? There were probably old cars that belonged to CM and WM in there as well. To me the whole chop shop thing is non existent. They were buying car parts, not selling them. They were probably selling the cars once they fixed them up though...for a profit.

So who was going to give him a working Dodge Ram 3500HD with a Cummins Diesel engine for a really cheap price or for nothing? No one. So he cooked up this scheme to steal one IMO. Was planning it for quite some time and he got down to the wire of when he'd need it. Didn't go so well did it?

MOO

 

[Ironworker736]

While it was reported in the beginning that the hangar appeared to be full of stolen vehicles, and the place looked like a chop shop, that has never been confirmed. The trailer and bike...yes they were stolen...although I personally think he was after the trailer and the bike was a bonus. I think all the trailers may have been stolen and modified. Easy to steal trailers.

A hangar full of stolen vehicles turned into less than 10 vehicles in the hangar. We are not seeing any evidence so far that any of the other vehicles in the hangar were stolen and I personally doubt that they were stolen. I think they were just heaps that he got from people trying to get rid of cars that he was either given or negotiated for a cheap price and that he and his friends liked to play with and rebuild. Didn't they drive all the way to Nevada or somewhere to get the Camaro? There were probably old cars that belonged to CM and WM in there as well. To me the whole chop shop thing is non existent. They were buying car parts, not selling them. They were probably selling the cars once they fixed them up though...for a profit.

So who was going to give him a working Dodge Ram 3500HD with a Cummins Diesel engine for a really cheap price or for nothing? No one. So he cooked up this scheme to steal one IMO. Was planning it for quite some time and he got down to the wire of when he'd need it. Didn't go so well did it?

MOO

Even so, chop shop or no chop shop, I'm pretty sure literally anyone who hasn't had a recent lobotomy could easily deduce that this was possibly the dumbest, most illogical way possible to steal a truck. MOO

ETA - and to think he (they) planned this extremely silly idea? For a long time? I just don't see it.

 

[Kamille]

We are missing the biggest piece of the puzzle. The WHY. And we may never know unless somebody "in the know" speaks up. The Crown doesn't have to provide motive, and they haven't, which tells me that they can't prove WHY either.

We may never know.

The Crown is trying to present the why but is getting shut out by legal arguments. He was not in the best place financially, he was planning to race in Baja, a trip that, in itself was going to cost thousands of dollars. He needed a new truck to pull the new trailer he was having his "employees" build. His red truck had already made that trip twice and at least one other trip to the states to haul the Camaro back. It was a used truck when he got it in 2009 and it was a gas guzzler. Doubt it would have made it there and back this time and I'll bet his mechanic told him this.

Hence the "need" for him to plan to steal a Dodge Ram with a Cummins Diesel engine. The only type of truck he made appointments to "test drive" with a burner phone.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I hear you, but....I can't fathom owning an animal cremator when you don't own livestock. I get drawn back to this every time I try make sense of everything but I can't. That Eliminator was not meant for animals, furniture, mice or rats at the hanger. IMO it was purchased with a plan in mind. Who spends $15,000.00 on an animal cremator? Who?

I would love to get inside DM's mind. I really would because it think there's a lot of diabolical thoughts going on in there. As blasé as this may sound, I think he got bored with his life. He wanted to live on the edge, whether it be racing jeeps in the Baha or playing El Capo with his entourage or killing people for the hell of it and the rush.

MOO

It was bought almost a year prior when he may have had another problem that he "needed" to deal with. It was not bought with this crime in mind IMO.

 

[Ironworker736]

The Crown is trying to present the why but is getting shut out by legal arguments. He was not in the best place financially, he was planning to race in Baja, a trip that, in itself was going to cost thousands of dollars. He needed a new truck to pull the new trailer he was having his "employees" build. His red truck had already made that trip twice and at least one other trip to the states to haul the Camaro back. It was a used truck when he got it in 2009 and it was a gas guzzler. Doubt it would have made it there and back this time and I'll bet his mechanic told him this.

Hence the "need" for him to plan to steal a Dodge Ram with a Cummins Diesel engine. The only type of truck he made appointments to "test drive" with a burner phone.

MOO

<BBM>
Sorry, just trying to understand...where are you getting this from? From LW's testimony? I'm pretty sure she took one heck of a beating here on WS after being on the stand, with general consensus being that this bookkeeper wasn't really qualified to know the financial well-being of a corporation. Am I remembering that wrong? Please correct me if I am. If you have other proof of the financial situation, can you provide a link? I don't recall anything at the moment. TIA

 

[JuneBug67]

I hear you, but....I can't fathom owning an animal cremator when you don't own livestock. I get drawn back to this every time I try make sense of everything but I can't. That Eliminator was not meant for animals, furniture, mice or rats at the hanger. IMO it was purchased with a plan in mind. Who spends $15,000.00 on an animal cremator? Who?

I would love to get inside DM's mind. I really would because it think there's a lot of diabolical thoughts going on in there. As blasé as this may sound, I think he got bored with his life. He wanted to live on the edge, whether it be racing jeeps in the Baha or playing El Capo with his entourage or killing people for the hell of it and the rush.

MOO

I agree that that unfathomable 'Eliminator' probably has is purpose in some kind of twisted murderous intent, but there's little to link it to premeditation in Tim's case, other than the fact that it was wildly convenient after the fact. I think too that you're right on about the living on the edge angle. There is a really reasonable chance that DM is psychopathic and it's very common for these types to be impulsive thrill seekers with few realistic goals or plans.

But even psychopaths have a survival instinct and the ability to have a halfway sensible plan. Just to point out a few things:

- their actions indicate they are aware of cell phone evidence, but cart their personal phones to a murder and reuse the burner phone the day after leaving an eye witness connected to it
- DM uses an only half-assed alias on all the truck phone calls
- they leave at least three eye witnesses in three days, one that could describe an almost tiny tattoo on DM's wrist, which is attached to his unusually tall body
- their actions indicate that they are aware of video evidence, but are caught on tape multiple times over multiple hours
- they want a free truck in good condition, but manage to blow the window out of it and do things that gruesomely requires them to rip out most of the interior and burn it
- they make a 10 minute stop at the Bobcat with a captive or a dead man in their vehicle...why?
- DM has to send a last minute text about 'airport politics' to keep people away from the hangar
- am I forgetting anything

There is an awful lot that leads be to believe that this is just an awful, terrible armed robbery gone awfully, terribly wrong.

 

[Ironworker736]

I agree that that unfathomable 'Eliminator' probably has is purpose in some kind of twisted murderous intent, but there's little to link it to premeditation in Tim's case, other than the fact that it was wildly convenient after the fact. I think too that you're right on about the living on the edge angle. There is a really reasonable chance that DM is psychopathic and it's very common for these types to be impulsive thrill seekers with few realistic goals or plans.

But even psychopaths have a survival instinct and the ability to have a halfway sensible plan. Just to point out a few things:

- their actions indicate they are aware of cell phone evidence, but cart their personal phones to a murder and reuse the burner phone the day after leaving an eye witness connected to it
- DM uses an only half-assed alias on all the truck phone calls
- they leave at least three eye witnesses in three days, one that could describe an almost tiny tattoo on DM's wrist, which is attached to his unusually tall body
- their actions indicate that they are aware of video evidence, but are caught on tape multiple times over multiple hours
- they want a free truck in good condition, but manage to blow the window out of it and do things that gruesomely requires them to rip out most of the interior and burn it
- they make a 10 minute stop at the Bobcat with a captive or a dead man in their vehicle...why?
- DM has to send a last minute text about 'airport politics' to keep people away from the hangar
- am I forgetting anything

There is an awful lot that leads be to believe that this is just an awful, terrible armed robbery gone awfully, terribly wrong.

Did he also wear his signature man purse to the Bosma house?
And he used his middle name "alias" on public dating sites in the past. I wonder if he used it often?

 

[SnooperDuper]

I agree that that unfathomable 'Eliminator' probably has is purpose in some kind of twisted murderous intent, but there's little to link it to premeditation in Tim's case, other than the fact that it was wildly convenient after the fact.

<rsbm>

But the jury doesn't know that the incinerator was bought for LB. All they know is DM had one and used it, which makes the crime look premeditated.

I doubt the jury is sitting there thinking, but he didn't really plan to use the incinerator - it was plan B. They just know he did use it.

 

[JuneBug67]

Did he also wear his signature man purse to the Bosma house?
And he used his middle name "alias" on public dating sites in the past. I wonder if he used it often?

I wondered about the man purse at the Bosma house too, but other more attentive posters informed me that neither witness could remember one. He did wear it on the other test drive though, and like the tattoos it proved memorable. I almost added that to my original list, but didn't. Maybe I should have.

 

[Ironworker736]

<rsbm>

But the jury doesn't know that the incinerator was bought for LB. All they know is DM had one and used it, which makes the crime look premeditated.

I doubt the jury is sitting there thinking, but he didn't really plan to use the incinerator - it was plan B. They just know he did use it.

<BBM>
Has this been testified to in any court of law? Or proven in any way? I assume this is your opinion, right?

 

[JuneBug67]

<rsbm>

But the jury doesn't know that the incinerator was bought for LB. All they know is DM had one and used it, which makes the crime look premeditated.

I doubt the jury is sitting there thinking, but he didn't really plan to use the incinerator - it was plan B. They just know he did use it.

Some of them probably know it was linked to LB from previous coverage. Regardless, I think it's a leap to connect a purchase from almost a year before with a crime that doesn't really seem to gear up until the days before it is ultimately committed. I think it it is far more valuable to cognizance of guilt than premeditation.

 

[Kamille]

<BBM>
Sorry, just trying to understand...where are you getting this from? From LW's testimony? I'm pretty sure she took one heck of a beating here on WS after being on the stand, with general consensus being that this bookkeeper wasn't really qualified to know the financial well-being of a corporation. Am I remembering that wrong? Please correct me if I am. If you have other proof of the financial situation, can you provide a link? I don't recall anything at the moment. TIA

Like I said, the Crown is trying to present evidence of this and the defense is blocking it all the way. LW did not take a beating here for talking about the financial affairs that she knew about and told LE about 3 years ago. She took a beating for taking an about face on her testimony and agreeing with the defense that she didn't know what she was talking about when she first spoke to LE 3 years ago. This after spending those 3 years working with MB and visiting DM 6 times. She was the bookkeeper for the entire business. Of course she knew what she was talking about as far as the business finances were concerned. She saw the bank balances, she saw the influx of money from the loan. WM had just put considerable personal finances into the business to get it up and running and had also taken out a 3.8 million dollar loan. All this information has been presented, albeit very broken and disconnected because of legal arguments. Anyone can put two and two together. But the defense doesn't want you to for some reason.

I hope there will be more testimony like this but the defense seems to have successfully blocked testimony about why MB was getting a permit for a drive shed at the farm, which probably would have led to a lot of other financial testimony about how MB was already convincing DM that he needed to start liquidating the expensive properties to get more cash flow. MillardAir, as a business and a source of income, had ceased to exist many years earlier after the death of CM. At the time of this murder, there was no money coming in for a lot of years, and a lot of money going out to start up the new business and maintain the properties.

MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Some of them probably know it was linked to LB from previous coverage. Regardless, I think it's a leap to connect a purchase from almost a year before with a crime that doesn't really seem to gear up until the days before it is ultimately committed. I think it it is far more valuable to cognizance of guilt than premeditation.

The gun was bought far in advance...so was the burner phone. DM collected all the tools together for this crime, then he acted. It it not an act of premeditation to build a crime toolkit, even if done far in advance of the crime? If he did not intend to use the incinerator, the gun, and the burner phone for the crime (no premeditation) then what did he buy them for? Why did he not make all those purchases in the days before the crime? (Of course it would be really easy to track them then - best off to buy far in advance with hopes the tools will not be linked to the crime.)

 

[Ironworker736]

Like I said, the Crown is trying to present evidence of this and the defense is blocking it all the way. LW did not take a beating here for talking about the financial affairs that she knew about and told LE about 3 years ago. She took a beating for taking an about face on her testimony and agreeing with the defense that she didn't know what she was talking about when she first spoke to LE 3 years ago. This after spending those 3 years working with MB and visiting DM 6 times. She was the bookkeeper for the entire business. Of course she knew what she was talking about as far as the business finances were concerned. She saw the bank balances, she saw the influx of money from the loan. WM had just put considerable personal finances into the business to get it up and running and had also taken out a 3.8 million dollar loan. All this information has been presented, albeit very broken and disconnected because of legal arguments. Anyone can put two and two together. But the defense doesn't want you to for some reason.

I hope there will be more testimony like this but the defense seems to have successfully blocked testimony about why MB was getting a permit for a drive shed at the farm, which probably would have led to a lot of other financial testimony about how MB was already convincing DM that he needed to start liquidating the expensive properties to get more cash flow. MillardAir, as a business and a source of income, had ceased to exist many years earlier after the death of CM. At the time of this murder, there was no money coming in for a lot of years, and a lot of money going out to start up the new business and maintain the properties.

MOO

<BBM>
The only way the defence blocks anything is if the judge agrees to have it blocked. It's not like the defence is running the show here.

So your opinion of the financial affairs is based on LW's testimony, a witness that did "an about face" on the stand?

Putting two and two together = speculating IMO

 

[Ironworker736]

The gun was bought far in advance...so was the burner phone. DM collected all the tools together for this crime, then he acted. It it not an act of premeditation to build a crime toolkit, even if done far in advance of the crime? If he did not intend to use the incinerator, the gun, and the burner phone for the crime (no premeditation) then what did he buy them for? Why did he not make all those purchases in the days before the crime? (Of course it would be really easy to track them then - best off to buy far in advance with hopes the tools will not be linked to the crime.)

So you really believe he bought a gun a year or more in advance, specifically for this oh-so-well-planned crime?
If DM and his "entourage" are really the deviant little criminals that some people believe them to be, a gun is simply a tool of the trade. IMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

So you really believe he bought a gun a year or more in advance, specifically for this oh-so-well-planned crime?
If DM and his "entourage" are really the deviant little criminals that some people believe them to be, a gun is simply a tool of the trade. IMO

Perhaps the crime was badly planned, but it was in fact planned (premeditated).

I don't buy that the two needed a gun for any other purpose. They weren't running drugs or doing anything else nefarious. Just this.

 

[Kamille]

<BBM>
The only way the defence blocks anything is if the judge agrees to have it blocked. It's not like the defence is running the show here.

So your opinion of the financial affairs is based on LW's testimony, a witness that did "an about face" on the stand?

Putting two and two together = speculating IMO

What is most unique about this case is the way it ties in to the two other cases, where evidence starts to overlap. I'm sure that the defense is using this to their advantage when getting evidence blocked. Anything financial also starts to fall into the category of motive for the WM murder case. Pretty sure the judge is going to be erring on the side of caution for a lot of these rulings.

Just like the jury has to consider that the gun and the incinerator were purchased for just this crime when everyone else who has been following this for 3 years knows that is not likely the case. It's all very convoluted to have to separate these cases and try each one as if they don't tie into the others.

And putting two and two together is using common sense. Something the Crown is counting on this jury to have the ability to do.

MOO

 

[Ironworker736]

Perhaps the crime was badly planned, but it was in fact planned (premeditated).

I don't buy that the two needed a gun for any other purpose. They weren't running drugs or doing anything else nefarious. Just this.

<BBM>
And you know this how?

 

[Satchie]

Here's what I can't understand...
DM is the ringleader. He allegedly had a chop shop going in his hangar.

There's no evidence so far the chop shop was ever a large scale operation, I suspect it was something they tried out but lost interest in. The motorcycle was stolen in the fall of 2012 (by just towing it away), and more than 6 months later the parts were still in the hangar.

I don't think DM wanted to work as hard as a chop shop would require. His only interest at the time TB's truck was stolen was getting SS and AJ to build a large trailer, and talking bull** about plans for the hangar. This raises the question, why didn't he buy a trailer, instead of leaning on AJ to go buy plywood and build it himself? I wonder what was happening with his finances, in reality or in his head.

 

[Ironworker736]

What is most unique about this case is the way it ties in to the two other cases, where evidence starts to overlap. I'm sure that the defense is using this to their advantage when getting evidence blocked. Anything financial also starts to fall into the category of motive for the WM murder case. Pretty sure the judge is going to be erring on the side of caution for a lot of these rulings.

Just like the jury has to consider that the gun and the incinerator were purchased for just this crime when everyone else who has been following this for 3 years knows that is not likely the case. It's all very convoluted to have to separate these cases and try each one as if they don't tie into the others.

And putting two and two together is using common sense. Something the Crown is counting on this jury to have the ability to do.

MOO

I agree and respect that, however...pictures of a gun do not prove it was bought buy anyone in particular or that it was even ever fired. I can show you many pictures of my guns, and I guarantee that if you looked at 4 pictures of what appears to be the same gun, you could do very little to tell me any backstory of that firearm. All of this is pure conjecture, in regards to that gun or guns in those pictures. I respect everyone's right to opinion, but please realize that opinion is just that. And I'm not trying to be argumentative...just looking at this perhaps a little differently than some. I have opinions too