Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[Abitcountry]

I'll use another example...
You are at my house, I want you to leave, I pull out a gun and say "go home". The gun accidentally goes off and kills you. Would I be guilty of forcible confinement in this case, in your opinion?

So in your example.....where is the forcible confinement? You are throwing your guest to the curb....it's your house...whose being confined.

As far as questioning forcible confinement in TB's case....the police did not hesitate to charge DM with theft and forcible confinement....so if you don't like it.....take it up with them.
They did not just pull that charge out of some bodily orfice .....

 

[Errrr]

So in your example.....where is the forcible confinement? You are throwing your guest to the curb....it's your house...whose being confined.

As far as questioning forcible confinement in TB's case....the police did not hesitate to charge DM with theft and forcible confinement....so if you don't like it.....take it up with them.
They did not just pull that charge out of some bodily orfice .....

If you steal a car and then discover a kid in the back seat, you are guilty of child abduction I think?

 

[Abitcountry]

If you steal a car and then discover a kid in the back seat, you are guilty of child abduction I think?

Do ya think <modsnip>!!!

 

[Ironworker736]

So in your example.....where is the forcible confinement? You are throwing your guest to the curb....it's your house...whose being confined.

As far as questioning forcible confinement in TB's case....the police did not hesitate to charge DM with theft and forcible confinement....so if you don't like it.....take it up with them.
They did not just pull that charge out of some bodily orfice .....

I'm pretty sure being charged with a crime is a little bit different than being convicted of a crime MOO

 

[matou]

Tim Bosma Murder Trial: Suspicious activity on Brantford road night Bosma died | EXHIBIT #99 (E)


[video=youtube;e20Ib-wZtmQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e20Ib-wZtmQ&index=1&list=UUnsj4TU7mOQ-4l2HOaRekgA[/video]

A security camera at a Bobcat company in Brantford — down the road from where Bosma’s cell phone was found — caught two vehicles that look like Bosma’s Dodge Ram 3500 pick-up truck and Millard’s Yukon SUV pull over to the side of the road for several minutes in the dark, industrial stretch less than an hour after Bosma disappeared on his test drive.

 

[Sillybilly]

I'll use another example...
You are at my house, I want you to leave, I pull out a gun and say "go home". The gun accidentally goes off and kills you. Would I be guilty of forcible confinement in this case, in your opinion?

<rsbm>

IMO (no learned judge here), Yes it would be forcible confinement. Firstly, in Canada, we don't just pull guns on people to get them to do as we please (you should call LE to have the person legally removed ). That aside, once you pull the gun on me, that is an "exhibition of force". I would therefore be under "duress" because you are using the "threat of force". IF that does in fact constitute FC, it does not matter that the gun went off accidentally .. I died during the commission of FC.

IMO, you would be hard pressed to convince a judge/jury that you had no intention to use the gun (mens rea). Why not just come at me with a slipper and slap me until I left ... alive but with a bruised ego?

 

[matou]

I don't think the smaller lights are from a cigarette. Maybe a flashlight? Very short moments of light. That whole thing is so weird and disturbing.

 

[Wollander77]

I'm pretty sure being charged with a crime is a little bit different than being convicted of a crime

I was curious about the scenario you presented and looked up whether or not a case such as this occurred in the past. And I found a case similar to the situation you imagined. Links: https://www.sootoday.com/local-news/19-year-old-says-not-a-drop-since-car-jacking-181388 and http://www.saultstar.com/2015/06/23/carjacking-nets-house-arrest.

Last year, 19 year-old Nicholas Burns was convicted of forcible confinement, assault, and two other counts for having threatened a woman in her car with bodily harm while drunk in Sault Ste. Marie:

"Burns got into her car and demanded she drive him home. Once in the car he started to touch her arm, and was told to stop. When she tried to get him to leave, Burns yelled at her, and said he didn&#8217;t trust her. He then said that he would &#8220;smash her head against the wheel&#8221; and pulled her hair, Crown prosecutor Mary Pascuzzi said. Burns then told the victim to get out of the vehicle. She ran away and called the police."

Granted, in this case, Burns ordered the woman to drive him home, told her to leave the car when she wouldn't, and had voluntarily pleaded guilty to all charges. Even so, he acknowledged the conviction and served his sentence (because he was truly remorseful, thought he would lose the case, or wanted to lessen his sentence). So while the jury in the TB case may rule differently, there have been unique circumstances such as I've described here that urged the Crown to confidently pursue the forcible confinement charge and actually secure it.

But again, perhaps we'll never know what happened in TB's truck and the jury will have to determine the most accurate interpretation of events as they see it. I'm not sure which explanation might offer the Bosma family better closure, and my heart goes out to them in this regard.

On a final note, I didn't sense that sleuths here thought forcible confinement was a given, only that they were persuaded one way or the other with the evidence they've reviewed. I believe the Crown will still have to prove its case before the jury, as I think they've tried their best to do. But we've still more to hear from them and I want to see how they'll proceed from here.

 

[Tealgrove]

Tim Bosma Murder Trial: Suspicious activity on Brantford road night Bosma died | EXHIBIT #99 (E)


[video=youtube;e20Ib-wZtmQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e20Ib-wZtmQ&index=1&list=UUnsj4TU7mOQ-4l2HOaRekgA[/video]

A security camera at a Bobcat company in Brantford &#8212; down the road from where Bosma&#8217;s cell phone was found &#8212; caught two vehicles that look like Bosma&#8217;s Dodge Ram 3500 pick-up truck and Millard&#8217;s Yukon SUV pull over to the side of the road for several minutes in the dark, industrial stretch less than an hour after Bosma disappeared on his test drive.

Would somebody please help me with my bearings here?

Are those vehicles driving south on Oak Park - stop - then turn around and head back north?

I always assumed that they exited the 403 at Oak Park and went in a northerly direction. If they're driving south then they exited maybe at Paris Rd and drove into the outer part of Paris, and then turned onto Oak Park which is really odd. Why turn south and then have turn around. Lost?

To get to the farm, go north on Oak Park and then eventually make your way up through Cambridge or dipsy doodle through Paris and out to 15 and up.

Do we know the actual route they took to the farm?

Sorry for these questions. I had a different scenario in my head and now I realize I was wrong. Thanks

 

[Gibson67]

Tim Bosma Murder Trial: Suspicious activity on Brantford road night Bosma died | EXHIBIT #99 (E)


[video=youtube;e20Ib-wZtmQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e20Ib-wZtmQ&index=1&list=UUnsj4TU7mOQ-4l2HOaRekgA[/video]

A security camera at a Bobcat company in Brantford &#8212; down the road from where Bosma&#8217;s cell phone was found &#8212; caught two vehicles that look like Bosma&#8217;s Dodge Ram 3500 pick-up truck and Millard&#8217;s Yukon SUV pull over to the side of the road for several minutes in the dark, industrial stretch less than an hour after Bosma disappeared on his test drive.

when the vehicles turn around @3:08 you can still see some flashing lights..so was it something else altogether and had nothing to do with these vehicles? Gosh this business needs a new security system..wow this is bad quality.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I am slightly confused regarding the charge against DM & MS. I understand that initially DM was charged with theft and forcible confinement and that charge was later upgraded to First Degree Murder. And it appears that MS was charged with First Degree Murder when he was arrested.

In subsequent posts I have read people discussing the need for the Crown to conclusively prove that the murder in question was planned and deliberate.....and I have repeatedly wondered what it is that I keep missing???

It has seemed to me that the Crown has actually had the slightly lesser burden to prove that TB was abducted and while forcibly confined met with his untimely death at the hands of the accused .
The victim voluntarily got in the truck with two strangers.....he was removed from his home and community .....not allowed to return to his home......and was never seen alive again. And those are absolute facts--there is no measuring the degree of confinement or the degree of the abduction.....it appears to me that the Crown has to make an solid case that identifies DM & MS as his abductors and the persons who unlawfully confined TB and that his death resulted whether it was planned, intentional or accidental.
So I ask again....what am I missing here??? Is it that there is some possible debate that TB was abducted &/or confined with tragic results??? Is it that premeditated and planned trumps abducted or forcibly confined....I just don't get it???

I have included 2 quotes that both speak to the fact that certain homicides are automatically considered First Degree Murder
regardless of premeditation and planning....and I can provide another reference to a case in Vancouver where a man was unlawfully confined in his apartment when he was killed..... his attacker was later convicted of First Degree Murder ----Strangely enough, the victim had advertised some expensive jewellery for sale online and he was murdered by the prospective buyer who had arranged a meeting at the victim's apartment.


Daniel Brown Criminal Lawyers, Toronto http://www.********************/homicide-murder-criminal-lawyer-toronto/


Murder vs. Manslaughter www.cbc.ca

I think the Vancouver case is a perfect example that the confinement aspect isn't as black and white as some people think. The accused was first convicted on 1st degree murder based on the finding that the victim was unlawfully confined in his apartment when he was killed. He then won his appeal and the conviction was downgraded to 2nd degree on the basis that the evidence did not support that the victim was confined as a separate act from the murder. The Crown then appealed to the Supreme Court and the 1st degree conviction was reinstated on the basis that "it was open to the trial judge to conclude that the act of forcible or unlawful confinement, which occurred when the respondent prevented the victim from escaping through the front door of the apartment, was distinct and independent" from the murder. Interesting that the original trial was by judge alone, not by jury. Judging by the witness accounts, I would agree that the 1st degree conviction was the correct one in that case.

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2016/02/26/un-gangster-has-first-degree-murder-conviction-re-instated/

It would seem from this that the confinement does have to be a separate act, distinct and independent from the murder, for a 1st degree charge to apply. In this case, the Judge will give the Jury instructions on the legal definitions of 1st degree and confinement, and it will be up to the Jury to decide guilt of 1st degree murder or a lesser charge. I think it could help the Jury in their decision if they had some evidence of what it was that actually happened just prior to the death. As for the other examples given, I think there is a very large difference between being killed while one is trying to leave the situation and as a means of preventing one from leaving, and being killed accidentally or during a struggle while one is being told to leave. The first instance would be 1st degree, the second would be 2nd degree or manslaughter.

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

I don't think the smaller lights are from a cigarette. Maybe a flashlight? Very short moments of light. That whole thing is so weird and disturbing.

The quality of video is so poor, I cannot imagine how anyone thought "cigarette" to be honest. I watched it numerous times and found it rather odd where the light was coming from.

To get my bearings on where the rear vehicle stopped before it turned off it's lights:



Then a still of that video where it shows the light



Now a 50% transparent layer of the first image directly over the second image, to show where the light is in comparison with the tail lights of the rear vehicle



To me, it doesn't look like the light source is coming from the vehicles at all.

 

[Satchie]

Would somebody please help me with my bearings here?

Are those vehicles driving south on Oak Park - stop - then turn around and head back north?

I always assumed that they exited the 403 at Oak Park and went in a northerly direction. If they're driving south then they exited maybe at Paris Rd and drove into the outer part of Paris, and then turned onto Oak Park which is really odd. Why turn south and then have turn around. Lost?

Yes, my understanding is they were heading south, here's an image from google street view that shows where I think they parked;

They must have come from Paris Road, I think the truck pulled off that road to find someplace dark to talk and other sinister things.

 

[Satchie]

when the vehicles turn around @3:08 you can still see some flashing lights..so was it something else altogether and had nothing to do with these vehicles? Gosh this business needs a new security system..wow this is bad quality.

I think I can see lights from vehicles driving on Paris Road, on the upper left of the video.

 

[Typhoo1961]

I think I can see lights from vehicles driving on Paris Road, on the upper left of the video.

I could see those too.

 

[Tealgrove]

If you don't let your eyes wander to the lights on Paris Road and keep them trained on the right side of screen you can see brief FAINT flickers of DIM light.

I had to take my glasses off and get up and personal with my screen to see them.

Don't let the other flashes further back and to the left distract you.

 

[Tealgrove]

Yes, my understanding is they were heading south, here's an image from google street view that shows where I think they parked;View attachment 90688

They must have come from Paris Road, I think the truck pulled off that road to find someplace dark to talk and other sinister things.

I agree, but I think they had lost their way. If they had gone a bit further south they would have been able to get rid of Tim's phone and I can't imagine it would have been found for a very long time. I don't think they knew where they were.

 

[SnooperDuper]

As for the other examples given, I think there is a very large difference between being killed while one is trying to leave the situation and as a means of preventing one from leaving, and being killed accidentally or during a struggle while one is being told to leave. The first instance would be 1st degree, the second would be 2nd degree or manslaughter.

JMO

<rsbm>

But pointing a loaded gun at a vital part of someone's body is incredibly reckless, so much so that such an action is just as bad as pointing and firing the gun. I don't think the murder charges will be dropped for an "accident" or "struggle". Guns don't spontaneously go off by themselves. If you harm someone through recklessness, don't get them aid - it's still murder.

It would be difficult to prove TB was not forcibly confined, IMO, because he never got away.

 

[matou]

Maybe they were lost. TB's phone accesses data at 10:01 and then it is shut off. Did someone use it? Maybe we are seeing Tim's phone light up?

 

[Tealgrove]

Maybe they were lost. TB's phone accesses data at 10:01 and then it is shut off. Did someone use it? Maybe we are seeing Tim's phone light up?

It would explain why Tim's phone was used. Google Maps/GPS - Where are we? Who knows but possible.