Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[SnooperDuper]

Sorry, I knew I shouldn't have asked such a silly question!

Ha ha, it's not silly. People always wonder how anonymous Crimestoppers is and a lot of people would be hesitant to use the service because they don't trust LE's word that they are anonymous.

 

[Arnie M]

I can't help thinking that it took two people to commit this crime: if DM were alone, he could not have done it.

Just because of that, I don't think MS deserves any consideration for participating less. Still wondering how things will turn out for him though.

I would agree with that too

Perhaps this is the reason why DM is staring at MS in court at various times.

Exactly ... one of them has done something to the other , or turned against the other.

IT did identify MS:

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...case-as-tim-bosma-murder-trial-continues.html

"It says Mark Smich went on a test drive with Igor Tumanenko on May 5, 2013 starting at 3 p.m. and Smich was the rear passenger. It says Smich was identified by Tumanenko in a photo lineup on May 15, 2013, conducted by Hamilton Police Service."
All MOO.

Yes , understood , but MS' defense lawyer could have beat that to death (or at least tried) , considering the hoodies and all.

Anyway , just some thoughts that makes me think MS may testify to everything that happened. Yet in reality he is in it up to his eyeballs and a lesser sentence seems unlikely.

 

[Arnie M]

I also have a question about the time AJ phoned CS Enquiring about the VIN number. I know CS protects the caller's identity but when someone's life is in danger, for eg., in the abduction of a child, can the police take steps to act on that tip? In this case, could they trace the cell phone ping from the person's phone call to CS if it meant possibly saving a life?

It is actually a legitimate question and people need to be assured of anonymity , that is the whole basis of Crime Stoppers and it would not work otherwise.

Crime Stoppers absolutely do not subscribe to any call display nor tracking systems , and I believe it is a totally independent organization , citizen based and staffed , often by volunteers , nothing to do with police ... all they do is pass the tips on to police. Its a good system.

 

[Kamille]

DM didn't have a record so they didn't have a mug shot of him. By the time DM was arrested, his picture was all over the news and it was too late to do a lineup because the witnesses' memory may have been contaminated by the news.

And I believe that is why the agreed statement of facts was entered for MS on the IT test drive. So as not to elicit any testimony that MS had a previous mug shot to show IT in a photo line-up. I suppose there may be an astute person on the jury who picks up on how LE were able to show IT a photo of MS, but it was not something DM's defence could "accidentally" blurt out with a "whoopsie...please disregard" during questioning of IT.

You'll notice they did attempt to make the inference by asking IT if he was ever asked to identify their client..."wink wink".

MOO

 

[brightii]

I would agree with that too



Exactly ... one of them has done something to the other , or turned against the other.



Yes , understood , but MS' defense lawyer could have beat that to death (or at least tried) , considering the hoodies and all.

Anyway , just some thoughts that makes me think MS may testify to everything that happened. Yet in reality he is in it up to his eyeballs and a lesser sentence seems unlikely.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...y_they_want_to_tell_their_story_but_cant.html

I agree. I re-read this article where a reporter interviewed MS (and DM) and Smich got emotional when his family and friends were mentioned. Perhaps he is able to feel and express some remorse in contrast to DM who doesn't leave me with that impression. I think MS may very well take the stand to give his version of events.

I also think MS is trying to follow his lawyer's advice by not talking to the press and for minding his behaviour in court. I may be wrong, but I think he has more solid family connections and support than DM, so he may have more incentive to talk the truth in court when given the opportunity.


All MOO.

 

[matou]

If MS wanted a truck for himself, why didn't he take any of his other friends on the test drive? Why did he bring DM? Why not his gf? Why didn't he himself just steal one? Gun or no gun?

 

[Kamille]

I can't help thinking that it took two people to commit this crime: if DM were alone, he could not have done it.

Just because of that, I don't think MS deserves any consideration for participating less. Still wondering how things will turn out for him though.

Actually, DM could have committed this crime alone. It just would have required a lot more effort to deal with a deceased body and get it into the incinerator. Something he probably didn't want to do when he's got "employees" at his beck and call. At least one who was already into it with him on another murder and disposal.

You'll notice no one else is involved in the WM murder since it didn't require all that body disposal grunt work after the fact. He figured out how to do that on his own allegedly. And that was before the TB murder.

MOO

 

[brightii]

And I believe that is why the agreed statement of facts was entered for MS on the IT test drive. So as not to elicit any testimony that MS had a previous mug shot to show IT in a photo line-up. I suppose there may be an astute person on the jury who picks up on how LE were able to show IT a photo of MS, but it was not something DM's defence could "accidentally" blurt out with a "whoopsie...please disregard" during questioning of IT.

You'll notice they did attempt to make the inference by asking IT if he was ever asked to identify their client..."wink wink".

MOO

This makes sense and I agree.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Actually, DM could have committed this crime alone. It just would have required a lot more effort to deal with a deceased body and get it into the incinerator. Something he probably didn't want to do when he's got "employees" at his beck and call. At least one who was already into it with him on another murder and disposal.

You'll notice no one else is involved in the WM murder since it didn't require all that body disposal grunt work after the fact. He figured out how to do that on his own allegedly. And that was before the TB murder.

MOO

Well someone had to drive the Yukon away from the scene. DM could have come armed with fake ID and could have left it with TB and taken the truck alone...but I doubt leaving your picture behind would get you very far Someone could have dropped DM off...but what if things didn't turn out and DM needed to be picked up, and fast?

 

[SnooperDuper]

And I believe that is why the agreed statement of facts was entered for MS on the IT test drive. So as not to elicit any testimony that MS had a previous mug shot to show IT in a photo line-up. I suppose there may be an astute person on the jury who picks up on how LE were able to show IT a photo of MS, but it was not something DM's defence could "accidentally" blurt out with a "whoopsie...please disregard" during questioning of IT.

You'll notice they did attempt to make the inference by asking IT if he was ever asked to identify their client..."wink wink".

MOO

Ha ha, yeah I guess "we were able to ID him because he had a record" would raise the jury's curiosity.

In terms of staying out of people's backgrounds, they didn't probe DM's wealth deeply at all. I don't think the Crown wants the jury to get stuck on exactly how much DM is worth: it's mind-boggling to think that he took the risks that he did, given his wealth.

 

[Kamille]

Well someone had to drive the Yukon away from the scene. DM could have come armed with fake ID and could have left it with TB and taken the truck alone...but I doubt leaving your picture behind would get you very far Someone could have dropped DM off...but what if things didn't turn out and DM needed to be picked up, and fast?

DM could have left his vehicle somewhere and taken a cab to the corner of Trinity and Book. If he was unable to get TB to take him on a test drive, or he decided that TB was too big to tangle with and he had to abort the plan, just walk away and call for another cab or have TB drop him off where his vehicle was after the drive. Once he was in the truck, with TB and he was carrying a loaded weapon, what could go wrong that would require him to be picked up fast?

But I agree that it was more convenient to have a co-conspirator with you. Lucky for him, I suppose, that he met someone who was willing to go along with these plans. Makes you wonder what MS's motivation was though. What did he gain from either of the alleged murders?

MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

DM could have left his vehicle somewhere and taken a cab to the corner of Trinity and Book. If he was unable to get TB to take him on a test drive, or he decided that TB was too big to tangle with and he had to abort the plan, just walk away and call for another cab or have TB drop him off where his vehicle was after the drive. Once he was in the truck, with TB and he was carrying a loaded weapon, what could go wrong that would require him to be picked up fast?

But I agree that it was more convenient to have a co-conspirator with you. Lucky for him, I suppose, that he met someone who was willing to go along with these plans. Makes you wonder what MS's motivation was though. What did he gain from either of the alleged murders?

MOO

Well cabs keep records of their stops, and the driver would have a chance to get a look at DM too. That doesn't seem like a very sane option.

Perhaps MS was like a groupie to DM? That would explain why DM threw it all on MS when he was arrested. Perhaps DM expected unconditional devotion from his lackey. If MS was working for DM from time to time, and hanging out there 80% of the time DM was there according to SH, I wonder what percentage of MS's living expenses came off of DM, and what else he was doing to sustain himself. I can imagine MS and DM both having wild and gruesome interests, and a synergy arising from the two: DM, gutsy, a leader; MS, faithful assistant.

 

[Kamille]

Well cabs keep records of their stops, and the driver would have a chance to get a look at DM too. That doesn't seem like a very sane option.

Perhaps MS was like a groupie to DM? That would explain why DM threw it all on MS when he was arrested. Perhaps DM expected unconditional devotion from his lackey. If MS was working for DM from time to time, and hanging out there 80% of the time DM was there according to SH, I wonder what percentage of MS's living expenses came off of DM, and what else he was doing to sustain himself. I can imagine MS and DM both having wild and gruesome interests, and a synergy arising from the two: DM, gutsy, a leader; MS, faithful assistant.

BBM

That's true, especially in a rural area. I guess the cab drivers in those areas are a little more in tune with what is going on in their cab and probably even chat up their customers and remember details. I'm used to cabs in the city, where they are busy and concentrating on traffic and their dispatch so they pay you no attention whatsoever. LOL

I guess he could have gotten SS to drop him off. Apparently he just does what the boss tells him to do no questions asked But it appears he did have a sidekick so I guess that wasn't necessary either. And I agree with your assessment of the relationship.

MOO

 

[brightii]

I wonder how much it will cost, DM, MS, and CN for their defence lawyers? Will the parents of each of them be responsible to pay for their legal costs? I wonder if MS has legal aid?

Is this info known?

All MOO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I wonder how much it will cost, DM, MS, and CN for their defence lawyers? Will the parents of each of them be responsible to pay for their legal costs? I wonder if MS has legal aid?

Is this info known?

All MOO.

I once dug up a Sun article on another case that quoted DP's rate at $700/hour, so that would add up quick. Charges like this are financially devastating.

Legal Aid is very stingy. Even if any of the above gets assistance, they will still end up with massive bills to pay off.

Lawyers estimate that a typical murder trial can last four to six weeks or more, and cost well over $100,000.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/02/21/murder-trials-may-be-retried-due-to-judges-errors.html

Now this trial isn't typical, being estimated to last 4 months (17 weeks, or around 3X as long as average)

We can extrapolate that this trial might cost MS $300k, and DM has TWO lawyers right now, and a third, DP, previously on the payroll all going for high powered rates. His bill so far must be massive.

(And that's just considering the TB trial - there is still the LB trial for MS, and both the LB and WM trials for DM, though he might try and save a buck and go it alone re: LB... http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/laura-babcock

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If MS wanted a truck for himself, why didn't he take any of his other friends on the test drive? Why did he bring DM? Why not his gf? Why didn't he himself just steal one? Gun or no gun?

Quite easy: no hangar, no machines, no tools, no old acquaintance to paint his stolen truck, no money to pay someone for painting, no money for replacement parts, a mother who would ask some unpleasant questions and so on ...

 

[billandrew]

I wonder how much it will cost, DM, MS, and CN for their defence lawyers? Will the parents of each of them be responsible to pay for their legal costs? I wonder if MS has legal aid?

Is this info known?

All MOO.

Assume Pillay and Sachak each cost $300 per hour. It could very well be higher but let's be conservative. As well, assume that they're hired full-time for 4 months. That's about 640 hours (17 weeks at 40 hours per week).

2 lawyers x $300/hr x 640 hours = $384,000

That's just the cost of the trial. Now add all the additional time the lawyers spend collecting and analyzing information, meeting with the client, preparing for the trial, attending pre-trial hearings, travel time, disbursements, etc.

I would not be surprised if Millard is spending over $500,000 on his legal counsel.

 

[ABro]

Assume Pillay and Sachak each cost $300 per hour. It could very well be higher but let's be conservative. As well, assume that they're hired full-time for 4 months. That's about 640 hours (17 weeks at 40 hours per week).

2 lawyers x $300/hr x 640 hours = $384,000

That's just the cost of the trial. Now add all additional time the lawyers spend collecting and analyzing information, meeting with the client, preparing for the trial, attending pre-trial hearings, travel time, disbursements, etc.

I would not be surprised if Millard is spending over $500,000 on his legal counsel.

Lawyers almost always make some kind of deal for trials like this. In general, it's not really worth it for a lawyer to take on a long trial.

It makes them unavailable for other work, and they don't bill full fees (usually). Plus, it's stressful work having to prepare for court every day for months on end.

 

[earlygirl]

I doubt MS or family has funds for a lawyer. I would assume his lawyer is legal-aid and is banking on the exposure rather than the cash. It's like a win-win.

There plenty of money for DM lawyers... his Mother has been liquidating his assets. The hangar has been re-leased, father's house, the fancy condo he got possession of day after the abduction, and the farm have been sold. There is another property, but a Bank has dibs on that one - that 3 million dollar loan needs to be paid back.

Rumor is that DM wants to be own lawyer for LB murder - I am not convinced that's because there is concern about cash to pay. He gets extra privileges - access to computer etc... I think he will buck up in the end anyways...

Does anyone know IF the other trials are scheduled yet>?

 

[Abitcountry]

If money interests you consider this article written in 2014--
www.edmontonsun.com/federal inmate costs soar

The cost to keep an average criminal in federal prison is $117,788 per year.
The cost to keep the worst criminal in federal prison is $151,000 per year.
The cost to keep a female criminal in federal prison is $211,618 per year.
The per diem cost amounts to $322 .
And these figures are 2 years old and don't include the cost of being escorted and chauffeured to attend your own trial each day for possibly 16 weeks.