Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

[Wollander77]

I know this article has been posted a number of times in the past, but I think it bears repeating (given that this has turned into the drug thread).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...a-death-faces-2-more-murder-charges-1.2605741

I think it's interesting that the source was "terrified" of DM, even with him behind bars. Makes me think some of the court witnesses do have a reason to be afraid.

Perhaps, but I'm still pondering what those reasons may have been. I don't think the witness offered detailed explanations behind her fear of DM, prior to the author's edits. She made references to drug-fueled brawls, but didn't connect them to DM's direct involvement in said incidents - if he had incited physical violence at his residence, invited his suppliers to parties to cause trouble, or if a few partiers lost reason in a drug-induced haze and fought each other. She said being alone in DM's presence in his house had been "disturbing," but I'm curious to know why she thought so.

I find the nature and extent of people's fear of DM, then vs. now, a bit fuzzy. DM might've resorted to blackmailing people, but since many of his close "friends" are now on the stand, I don't think he has that leverage over them anymore. Also, I don't know if we've heard concrete evidence in court that DM's circle of "friends" knew his suppliers personally or even indirectly - If these allegedly violent drug dealers had the wherewithal or desire to go after a "snitch" who secured pot, etc. from DM. I'd be interested to know if DM ever went after someone for ratting him out or talking too much to the wrong people, if he had a hidden history of inflicting physical or psychological abuse on others (prior to his alleged murder of WM and now TB). But the Crown probably has more proof in store to clear this issue up for me personally. MOO.

Anyhow, just sharing my thoughts - I'm open to changing my mind. If witnesses do harbour residual fear of DM, I hope they'll still tell the jury the whole truth as they perceive it, as it's simply the right thing to do. JMO.

 

[swedie]

What would make MH tell Crime Stoppers about the farm? Perhaps DM did tell him more than he let on during testimony. The grab and go thefts had the gang returning to the hangar.

Interesting tweet from ABro
Ann Brocklehurst ‏@AnnB03 11m11 minutes ago

For the record, Tom Dungey accused Matt Hagerman of still not coming clean in his 4th, final police intvu: MH failed to mention Bobcat heist


There is more this guy knows than he's letting on. Those tears were because the country now knows what a liar and thief he is IMO

I don't have faith in DM & Associates coming clean and telling the whole truth on the stand now. They had their chances during LE interviews and cannot admit still covering up for themselves. Wait until verdicts are reach and we find out what evidence was tossed out during pretrial and legal arguments. I can only imagine. The judge is being very cautious allowing in just enough information to get a clear picture of who DM was, his groupies and how he was able to instigate, lead and control them. The judge allowed just enough rope and Dungey is doing a magnificent job of getting them to hang themselves in front of the jurors, which in turn will hang DM. The jurors are seeing right through them no doubt.

I honestly hope these young men are very ashamed of themselves and learned very valuable lessons from this case, I hope they get their acts together and become decent and law abiding citizens, if they haven't already for the sake of society as a whole. They are lucky, and should consider themselves as such, to be given another chance at making things right in their lives and for the sake of others. MOO.

 

[swedie]

I don't see Smich as the kind of guy that would have cash to buy a pound.

Me either... at least not until jackpot pay day from DM. MOO.

 

[swedie]

Can anyone help me understand why CN was charged with accessory after the fact (assuming for helping dispose of the trailer with the truck) and why AM and MH weren't? Because they EVENTUALLY talked and CN didn't? Or because it can't be proven that they knew what they were disposing of? Just curious....

Sorry if this has been answered already. CN was charged with AATF/HTE because LE believe knew she knew TB had been murdered and she assisted DM in covering up the crime, moving incinerator, trailer with TB's truck inside, being with him when he dropped the toolbox off with evidence inside and who knows what else at this point.

In regards to AM and MH, it appears LE don't have the evidence to prove these two had any knowledge TB was murdered until after DM was arrested/in custody. IMO that is why MH claimed on the stand he didn't know what was in the toolbox, that DM didn't divulge and he didn't ask (other than text...claiming that was just his sense of humour and ironic after the fact), nor did DM tell MH what was going on when he asked him, other than DM saying something like "it's best if I don't say." MH has spun a web of lies for him and AM to make LE, and now the jurors believe they had no idea DM had taken a gun on a test drive and murdered the owner. Otherwise their geese would have been cooked and they could have also been arrested, the same fate as CN. AM will get up on the stand and admit DM told him that he and MS were going to steal a truck, but you will see, AM will not admit to knowing whether DM did steal a truck, the owner was shot and incinerated. They are lying and covering their own asses, bottom line. They cannot now get up on the stand and retract their lies because that would make them guilty and they could still be arrested and charge. They have to stick with their lies if they want to remain free. Free from prison that is. Not sure sure how they can live with themselves, knowing what they knew and didn't come forward to assist LE in solving the case of an innocent man's untimely and unnecessary death.

The meeting at the park...IMO that was to concoct a story between the two of them and leave no electronic footprints. Texting back and forth would have given LE the proof MH and AM knew TB was dead as they would have discussed it in text. Had that been the case, LE would have arrested MH and AM for AATF/HTE. At least they were smart enough to figure that part out kwim. Interesting how MH also claimed he hasn't spoken or seen AM since...I'm not buying it. I'm sure they've gotten together to make sure their stories jive. But that's JMHO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Geesh, these adult-kids. I just read Michalski had lost his license too. That makes 3 of them.


molly hayes@mollyhayes "Had to pick him up because Michalski had lost his license. He picked him up regularly for a few weeks. #Bosma"
Mar 23, 10:50

molly hayes@mollyhayes
"Michalski had just gotten his license back, and Bochenek was taking him to get his vehicle back-at the Millardair hangar in Waterloo #Bosmad Michalski had lost his license too. Had to pick him up because Michalski had lost his license. He picked him up regularly for a few weeks. #Bosma"

:thinking: Then DM for some time had a nice extra car to drive going on "mission tour" by night ....?

 

[Gibson67]

bbm
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/04/06/tim-bosma-murder-trial-continues.html

molly hayes@mollyhayes
It had a small padlock on it. DM was in his blue Yukon. It was dark and windows were tinted but H says there was someone else in the car.
Apr 6, 22:22
molly hayes@mollyhayes
Fraser brings the toolbox over to Hagerman on the stand "Does that look familiar?" Fraser asks. "That's what he brought me," H says. #Bosma

CN was sitting beside him, I think. Then it would be not so far fetched to use her phone?

was this not the same night they moved the truck and trailer? So somewhere they switched back to the Yukon after dropping off the trailer. I can see how Hussey said he looked like he hadn't slept in days after being up the entire night before heading to the Hangar again for meetings on the 10th.

I would think the reason for using CN's phone is he knew the heat was on..he already told MH that.
I wonder how he knew the heat was on? Was he watching the News? Had his description been released yet? What was making him so freaked out on the 9th, that made him move everything? the toolbox, the backpack full of weed, the dvr, the truck and trailer..I feel like someone was questioned and tipped him off.

Crown says he wants to look at texts that he believes are between Hagerman and Millard. #Bosma Apr 06, 2016
Imagine that! https://t.co/9Oob89tsmv Apr 06, 2016
"Can you tell me what these toys are so I can prepare myself?" Hagerman texted to Millard. Millard had asked him to do a favour. Apr 06, 2016
Asked him to hold on to things for a few days because he was feeling some heat. Millard said the toolbox. Hagerman knew the toolbox. Apr 06, 201

I believe it was well known that the toolbox was full of HARD drugs. If MH suspected his friend was feeling heat from getting caught for trafficking he may try to help. If Millard was deeper than we know into dealing then it would be possible for his friends to think he would be raided. LB also went to him for drugs so I'm thinking we have yet to hear how deep DM was involved in drugs.

 

[musicaljoke]

Of course I don't know about the family history with any certainty, but WM, DM's dad was allegedly murdered by DM so I don't think he was involved in anything criminal, IMO. WM's yet another victim of DM's, allegedly. As for MB helping DM after his arrest or her standing by him (if she in fact is?), she is likely motivated simply by being his mother, and feeling a mix of emotions, love, guilt, denial, shame, and regret, IMO. I don't think either of DM's parents did anything criminal, IMO.

DM was in his late twenties when he was arrested, and IMO he is responsible for his actions, not his parents.

All MOO.

MB might just have been protecting the assets. She hasn't been at court, although that may be because she is one of the witnesses who has not yet been called. If so, the Crown has wisely kept her away. It eliminates the potential for theatrics from the accused's mother. moo.

 

[Gibson67]

I can't wait to hear from AM, CN, and MM.

Just wondering aloud: I can imagine this crew of criminals controlled and directed by DM getting stoned and drunk together, making jokes and dares, and planning missions, and to them it was all just DM being "Dell", a wild and crazy guy who made life interesting and entertaining for them all. They all participated in a fantasy life and didn't take a moment to consider consequences because they were all having a good time under DM's spell and they each watched out for the others. They always had lookouts remember and they're good at keeping secrets and leading double lives. Dinner at mom and dad's and then out in the fields scoping out the latest heist under cover of darkness for Dell. Walkie-talkies in tow. And the jokes were endless. A Bobcat? 20 trees? A toolbox full of guns? Hahaha! And in the end when reality hit them hard in the face, and a young innocent man, a loving and law-abiding son, a devoted husband and father, a kind brother, a dear friend to all who knew him, Tim Bosma was murdered and his body incinerated, they still felt bad about betraying poor "Dell" who just went to steal a truck on a lark with his deranged, drug-addled, sketchy, low-life associate, MS, who must have snapped and took things too far. Dell knew a lot about all of them and they made sure to stay silent for Dell so he would stay silent about them. It was unspoken pact that tied them loyally together and they thought their bond was unbreakable. They all thought MS was a shady character, beneath them in every way, and they expressed contempt for him. He just didn't fit in, he wasn't their type. MS lived up to his name, he was a Mark, and they all had his number. He was the perfect person to have the superior DM and his criminal missionaries lay the blame on. They all thought they were safe, untouchable, and invincible.

I wonder what they all think of themselves now? I wonder what they all think now of the devilish Dell?

All MOO.

I believe AM knew that MS was the co-conspirator for the truck theft. AM would have been questioned possibly the morning DM's house was raided. AM would already know DM was arrested for the theft of Bosma's truck and that Bosma was still missing. MH said that AM was in a panic and in shock, especially when you might be caught with some potential incriminating evidence that was handed over to you for safe keeping. They knew Smich was the other guy.

Also on this day, May 7, 2013, Mr. Millard told his roommate that they had stolen a truck on May 6, the day before. This roommate already knew that Mr. Millard and Mr. Smich planned to steal a truck of this kind. The Accused had told him this plan on the weekend.

They knew now on the 10th that Millard and Smich stole the truck and a man was missing....so why not dump the stuff off to Smich..who knows what contact at this point AM had with MS..but we do know that MS was using Daly's phone out on the balcony because he had gotten rid of all his phones and there was no way to contact Smich, therefore I am assuming it was Smich that contacted AM from Daly's phone after hearing that DM was arrested. IMO

This is where I get confused: from opening statement..unless they mean AM and MH-by leaving it in the stairwell for MS to pick up..because I wasn't aware that DM knew Arthur (as the mutual friend). Hopefully we hear from Arthur.

After the arrest of Mr. Millard, Mr. Smich obtained possession of the toolbox from mutual friends of the two Accused. Mr. Smich was aware of the arrest of Mr. Millard and he took steps to gain control and possession of the locked toolbox.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/tim-bosma-trial-the-crowns-opening-statement.html

 

[Typhoo1961]

MB might just have been protecting the assets. She hasn't been at court, although that may be because she is one of the witnesses who has not yet been called. If so, the Crown has wisely kept her away. It eliminates the potential for theatrics from the accused's mother. moo.

IMO my guess is this is why MB has been away from the court. I think she is an upcoming witness. Time will tell.

 

[Inspector_North]

I believe this trial is rolling out like the crown expected. There may be some things they didn't expect from TD, but the overall adversarial character exposure strategy by both defense teams doesn't seem to have any impact on crown strategy.

Why?

IMO, this trial has accomplished exactly what is needed to complete the premeditated murder conclusion. When you look back on the weeks, and how this rolled out, you see a very linear progression towards who murdered TB. MS has had a lot less exposure as far as lifestyle history and his actions after the 6th. But his involvement will not escape this trial, and I believe MM is a key.

Many of us wonder why so much time was wasted on proving DM asset rich, cash poor. He is obviously a thief. The idea that the rich kid didn't need to steal is no longer an issue for the crown.

Now that the thief part is out of the way, the crown exposes DM's involvement in drugs. They show a much darker side to the adventurous playboy, and his control and compartmentalization of his minions.

The crown doesn't even seem worried with the TB truck theft not fitting DM's MO 'to not get caught'. They have proved that DM is something different to many of his minions. So multiple MO's for crimes is very possible with DM.

What is next?

IMO, we will hear some of the most disturbing testimony and evidence from remaining key witnesses linking both DM and MS to the premeditated murder. And nobody will doubt the interpretation of the testimony and evidence, based on the troubling picture that has developed so far.

Again! The fact that the crown has kept a steady path, tells me they will deliver justice, and more importantly some closure for the Bosma family.

MOO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I believe AM knew that MS was the co-conspirator for the truck theft. AM would have been questioned possibly the morning DM's house was raided. AM would already know DM was arrested for the theft of Bosma's truck and that Bosma was still missing. MH said that AM was in a panic and in shock, especially when you might be caught with some potential incriminating evidence that was handed over to you for safe keeping. They knew Smich was the other guy.

Also on this day, May 7, 2013, Mr. Millard told his roommate that they had stolen a truck on May 6, the day before. This roommate already knew that Mr. Millard and Mr. Smich planned to steal a truck of this kind. The Accused had told him this plan on the weekend.

They knew now on the 10th that Millard and Smich stole the truck and a man was missing....so why not dump the stuff off to Smich..who knows what contact at this point AM had with MS..but we do know that MS was using Daly's phone out on the balcony because he had gotten rid of all his phones and there was no way to contact Smich, therefore I am assuming it was Smich that contacted AM from Daly's phone after hearing that DM was arrested. IMO

This is where I get confused: from opening statement..unless they mean AM and MH-by leaving it in the stairwell for MS to pick up..because I wasn't aware that DM knew Arthur (as the mutual friend). Hopefully we hear from Arthur.

After the arrest of Mr. Millard, Mr. Smich obtained possession of the toolbox from mutual friends of the two Accused. Mr. Smich was aware of the arrest of Mr. Millard and he took steps to gain control and possession of the locked toolbox.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/tim-bosma-trial-the-crowns-opening-statement.html

bbm red
http://images.halinet.on.ca/OakvilleImages/Images/OI002474502pf_0003.pdf
-.-.-.-
http://www.insidehalton.com/news-story/2904155-adults-arrested-for-overpass-graffiti/
-.-.-.-
AS also is a "nice" guy who doesn't shy away from violence. In this article (first link) again the "third-man-problem" as in the TB case - odd.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

IMO my guess is this is why MB has been away from the court. I think she is an upcoming witness. Time will tell.

If I remember well, MB was on vacation when DM parked the trailer on her driveway. There isn't much to testify, IMO.
I don't know exactly but I think, I wouldn't want to sit in the courtroom if MY son was an alleged murderer of 1 (or 2 or 3) innocent human beings - and a "mortician" - and a thiev - and a druggie - don't know whatelse.

 

[Inspector_North]

bbm red
http://images.halinet.on.ca/OakvilleImages/Images/OI002474502pf_0003.pdf
-.-.-.-
http://www.insidehalton.com/news-story/2904155-adults-arrested-for-overpass-graffiti/
-.-.-.-
AS also is a "nice" guy who doesn't shy away from violence. In this article (first link) again the "third-man-problem" as in the TB case - odd.

I know this is hearsay, but I did read someone posting on FB to one of the sites set up to cover this trial say she knew MS in high school. And that one time her and a friend were stopped by MS while walking on a path, and asked to pay a fee for using his path.

While some of them may be mommy's boy, or cry on the stand, the overall theme coming from them all, is to protect their family and their own a$$ first, and DM second. To everyone else it seems they were thieves, bullies, and punks.

MOO

 

[MsSherlock]

Me either Matou. DM had the wherewithal to tell AM (assuming AM is the housemate DM confided in about plans to steal a truck) prior to TB's truck theft, but didn't give him the low down on the end results?! Yeah OK, whatever. They lived together in the same house and they never crossed paths from May 7th to the 9th?! If there were no text messages between them on those days, I would have to assume it was because they were together at the house gaming together or was it them doing yard together...Oh bother, :facepalm: I bet it slipped DM's mind to tell AM his best bud, he had pulled off the ultimate truck heist and murdered the owner and then incinerated him. These guys or at least AM (DM's associates in crime) had two days of news, hearing of TB's case, AM knew DM's plan and he just didn't put two and two together?! As you said Matou...bull pucky.

We're not going to hear AM admit he knew "after the fact" from the horse's mouth because he would have had to admit up to knowing and doing nothing about it, like go to LE. IF LE had to drag his hiney down to the station and question him, LE could have arrested him and charged him with AATF/HTE like CN perhaps. He did help to get rid of evidence; the backpack and toolbox. And it's apparent from MH testimony he and AM had no idea until they heard it on the news while driving in Oakville. Then they put two and two together. MOO, I think MM is going to be the one who tells all. ALL MOO.

Don't want to totally disagree with you guys (yeh, I'm the one that would rescue the pit bull puppy too..lol) but I think I'm putting a lot more emphasis on how well developed DM was as a psychopath. He was able to keep everything organized and apart. So my theory is that for this particular mission, all that AM would have known is that DM and MS stole a truck- no mention of incinerating the owner. DM had them all on a need to participate-need to know basis.

I believe MH when he says that they were shocked and I also believe that they just could never believe that their buddy Dell, the guy that had the whole world by the tail would ever be involved in someones abduction, let alone their murder. What they did not know is that they were, and had always been nothing to Dell. Think of the emotional turmoil caused when someone marries a person from another country and then after they get their status here they take off with someone else. The left spouse feels used, abandoned-left dealing with the fact that the person wasn't who they believed they were. They're left knowing that the entire relationship was a scam. Same thing here. I do believe that AM and MH were in total and absolute shock to hear that DM may be involved with a missing person, BUT, I do believe that a little, teeny weeny part of their brains may have believed it was possible- that something had gone wrong. At that point, it still couldn't be Dell- it had to be the sketchy MS. A call from CN or perhaps MB's implicating MS right after DM was arrested would have been all they needed.

IMO, DM kept them all apart and on a need to know basis for a very good reason. DM is an actor, a fraud, a compulsive liar and a master manipulator- to continue he needed people who believed he was just doing things for fun. Psychopaths destroy many lives and I believe WM & MB's had major concerns about DM. Good cop, bad cop? WM holding DM accountable, MB's making excuses? There seems to be a common emotion with all of DM's friends: fear. Perhaps DM was portraying JV as a bit more than the low paid general contractors they really were? There's been a few mentions of "The Columbians". IMO, not one of DM's friends knew everything. DM just had them all positioned-manipulating them all, just like men on a chest board. MOO

“I aspired to that image in some ways because people wanted that of me,” he says pulling up his orange sleeves, revealing large tattoos across both arms that read “I am heaven sent” and “Don’t you dare forget.” Meaning? I did everything just for my friends- casually pulling up his sleeves to remind anyone reading.

“I threw some parties. I tried to make that a reality for my friends.”I did so much for my less fortunate friends

“He was probably the person I loved most in the world, even more than myself,” he says. “We would have deep discussions. He needed me a lot for the business.”Yep- they got so deep and WM's demands so great that WM had to go.

“I took it all pretty hard. It was a responsibility I didn’t want at that time. I was angry at (Wayne) for the things I had to do because he wasn’t there to do them.”Meaning- now tell me why I would bring this on myself?

Millard can’t speak to the woman he had been dating for two years because she is on the list of people the court says he may not contact.
But he hopes to one day. “We were in love.”Hahaha as the letters are about to surface. Simply reinforcing his commitment and love to CN- just in case she's reading

And the Baja race?
“That’s postponed,” he says, smiling. “You can predict things in life, the way things will go. But plans never go as you expect.”Very interesting choice of words here. Sounds like an apology and attempt to keeping supporters on board- hey SS/AM, things are only postponed.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...didnt_kill_tim_bosma_exclusive_interview.html

 

[Inspector_North]

If I remember well, MB was on vacation when DM parked the trailer on her driveway. There isn't much to testify, IMO.
I don't know exactly but I think, I wouldn't want to sit in the courtroom if MY son was an alleged murderer of 1 (or 2 or 3) innocent human beings - and a "mortician" - and a thiev - and a druggie - don't know whatelse.

If I thought my son was innocent, you could not keep me away. I would be showing my support.

 

[MsSherlock]

I believe this trial is rolling out like the crown expected. There may be some things they didn't expect from TD, but the overall adversarial character exposure strategy by both defense teams doesn't seem to have any impact on crown strategy.

Why?

IMO, this trial has accomplished exactly what is needed to complete the premeditated murder conclusion. When you look back on the weeks, and how this rolled out, you see a very linear progression towards who murdered TB. MS has had a lot less exposure as far as lifestyle history and his actions after the 6th. But his involvement will not escape this trial, and I believe MM is a key.

Many of us wonder why so much time was wasted on proving DM asset rich, cash poor. He is obviously a thief. The idea that the rich kid didn't need to steal is no longer an issue for the crown.

Now that the thief part is out of the way, the crown exposes DM's involvement in drugs. They show a much darker side to the adventurous playboy, and his control and compartmentalization of his minions.

The crown doesn't even seem worried with the TB truck theft not fitting DM's MO 'to not get caught'. They have proved that DM is something different to many of his minions. So multiple MO's for crimes is very possible with DM.

What is next?

IMO, we will hear some of the most disturbing testimony and evidence from remaining key witnesses linking both DM and MS to the premeditated murder. And nobody will doubt the interpretation of the testimony and evidence, based on the troubling picture that has developed so far.

Again! The fact that the crown has kept a steady path, tells me they will deliver justice, and more importantly some closure for the Bosma family.

MOO

Well said. The Crown is doing an amazing job. Justice will be done- DM & MS will be going away for life. On another note, the way things are going, a verdict will be delivered very close to the 3 year anniversary of Tim's murder.

 

[mimimic]

What is the quickest way to get to billandrews time line/ evidence / witness pages that are at the bottom of his/her posts? i always scroll the thread to find one of his/her last posts and this takes a lot of time!

 

[Inspector_North]

What is the quickest way to get to billandrews time line/ evidence / witness pages that are at the bottom of his/her posts? i always scroll the thread to find one of his/her last posts and this takes a lot of time!

If I understand you correctly, you just need to click on his name in the top left and view his posts. Hope this helps.

 

[Typhoo1961]

On another note, the way things are going, a verdict will be delivered very close to the 3 year anniversary of Tim's murder.

It would be so awesome if the verdict of guilty of murder in the first degree was read out on May 6 for DM and MS. IMO

 

[Boudica]

IMO MB is a witness for the defence, not the crown. On the FB discussion page a few weeks ago there was a post that Smich's mother and sister had been in the court room that day.