Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

[leafs_fan93]

The question about why CN was charged and others weren't (specifically SS, AM & MH but also anyone else we haven't even heard about yet, if there are more) as accessory after the fact has been bugging a lot of us I think.

I think it just comes down to knowledge, and LE being able to prove who knew what, and when. I think with SS, AM and MH it certainly seems like they had to have known more details than they've let on, but it's also entirely possible they didn't actually have knowledge that DM and MS shot Tim and stole his truck. If you think about it, from their perspectives (DM's entourage), there was no legitimate reason for them to assume DM was connected to the missing guy on the news (even if they had already heard about it, despite some of them claiming they hadn't), because for all they knew, he was just a thief, not a killer. So at least at the beginning they probably didn't make the connection - until more details started coming out.

I don't believe for a moment though, that MH and AM didn't talk about what was in the tool box, or what was in the back pack, or that at least one if not both of them didn't actually look IN the backpack. It does sound reasonably truthful that they really didn't know DM killed a man and stole his truck (although we've heard AM did know in advance he was planning on stealing a truck) until they got together and started talking and piecing it together. MS acting all sketchy, DM meeting MH at 4am, sending the back pack off with one guy and the toolbox off with another, etc. It's possible MH really did think it was just drugs in the toolbox as he'd seen before. Until the pieces started falling into place, that is.

I think with the exhaustive investigation from LE on this case, if they were able to confirm/prove any of these guys had knowledge of what DM (and MS) did in Ancaster that night, and helped him in an attempt to avoid being caught or being prosecuted for it, they most definitely would have been charged the same way CN was.

100% speculation & moo

Agree completely. I think it comes down to their ability or inability to prove that AM and MH actually KNEW they were disposing of the murder weapon. To me, the charge against CN tells me that they have proof that she knew what she was hiding and why. MOO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

It will be interesting when AM takes the stand to see if the Crown will bring into evidence any of AM's and DM's social media posts, IMO.

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/05/16/tim-bosmas-murder-may-have-been-thrill-kill-source

“Police are looking into a small, “close-knit group of friends” that hung around together.

Dellen Millard, charged with first-degree murder, was part of that group.

“Social media was a big part of their activities,” the source said.”

bbm

All MOO.

I'm pretty sure the social media being referred to there was the Steam games they were into. It's not traditionally thought of as SM the way twitter, FB instagram, etc. are, but technically it is. I'm pretty sure all of them had a FB account and some of them even had twitter but they were more into online gaming than anything else, IIRC.

 

[brightii]

I'm pretty sure the social media being referred to there was the Steam games they were into. It's not traditionally thought of as SM the way twitter, FB instagram, etc. are, but technically it is. I'm pretty sure all of them had a FB account and some of them even had twitter but they were more into online gaming than anything else, IIRC.

IMO, if it is entered into evidence, it will be a mixture of all of the above, and perhaps other mediums of which I'm not aware. There's so many sites for young people to engage online these days. IMO, on the well-known sites like FB and Twitter, certain profiles and/or posts have been changed or deleted since DM's arrest. I hope LE would have been able to access all of it.

All MOO.

 

[Quaere_veritatem]

Agree completely. I think it comes down to their ability or inability to prove that AM and MH actually KNEW they were disposing of the murder weapon. To me, the charge against CN tells me that they have proof that she knew what she was hiding and why. MOO.

I think it comes down to CN's lack of cooperation. They only got the things she was holding after she was arrested. I think it was LE who said they generally don't arrest someone who is cooperating.

 

[hippy_chic]

I think he got rid of his phones after DM got arrested? That's when he became paranoid that the bogeyman(who he meant has not been established) was coming to get him? If he got rid of his phone prior to this I don't know how he would have been tipped off about the dump in the stairwell.

BD testified that MS had been using MM's phone for people to get in touch with him. And was also using BD's phone to text out.

Smich sometimes used Marlena's phone to contact him after May 10 when Millard was arrested, Daly says.
by Adam Carter 12:56 PM

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 29s30 seconds ago
From then on he'd use other people's phones. "It was clear to you he was trying to go underground," Pillay says. Yes.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 19s20 seconds ago
Smich used other people's phones. He was "going underground. He was preparing to flee," suggests Pillay. Daly agrees. Smich used Daly cell.

<modsnip>


Shannon Martin &#8207;@ShannonMartinTV 4m4 minutes ago Toronto, Ontario
Crown: How did you get rid of the items? H: We went behind a strip mall. Found a stairwell, that leads to an electrical room. We left them.

Heard of DM arrest while driving. Listening to @680NEWS . Hagermen says they panicked. Dumped items in a stairwell. @AM900CHML

Shannon Martin &#8207;@ShannonMartinTV 1m1 minute ago Toronto, Ontario
This was not the agreed upon location. Hagerman chose the drop.

<modsnip>

 

[Ontario Mom]

i would like to respectfully disagree with your last sentence. IMO TD, as it seems do most of us, believe the gun was in the toolbox. Had MH done the right thing we would have the murder weapon and knowledge that DM was the last person with the gun and not MS. IMO TD wanted MH to do the right thing as it would benefit his client the most. Cheers

Like I said, the defense is confusing to me, and the less-than-truthful witnesses haven't helped. While I do agree that the gun most likely was in the tool box, what I don't agree with is the idea that MH actually knew that. When AM met up with MH, according to MH's testimony he claims AM told him, that DM wanted both the back pack and the tool box to go to MS. Whether we can believe that or not, is really up in the air I guess. The thing is though, I'm not sure it would have made any difference at all where the gun ended up (as in who's possession it was in) because it has already been established MS and DM were the two, and the only two, together, in Ancaster, in Tim's truck the night he was shot and killed, and then together again at the hangar, on video, when the incinerator was used to dispose of him. No matter where the gun ended up, the defense can't argue the rest of it. And even if DM is the one who fired that gun, it still doesn't matter to the Crown, according to their opening statement because it can't be proven who actually fired it and they were both there. I just can't see how MH doing the right thing would have helped MS in any way, but I think TD is spinning a lot of smoke and doing it very effectively.

 

[deugirtni]

In regards to "what smelled of paint" There was spray cans on the green tarp. I'm going to say, they sprayed the floors of the truck cab black. As paint guy stated...only the body was going to be painted. DM didn't want the truck cab painted red. As for 12 cans not being enough to paint the truck body? You'd be surprised how far 12 cans can go. Tremclade would work just fine! I have about 5 Jeep guys That have used flat or satin Tremclade spray paint on their rigs. It's cheap to use and easy to toch up. Also as an idea on one can. I painted all my bumpers, rock rails and fender flares with 1 1/2 cans of spray paint. That was 2 good coats and 3 on the fender flares.

Yes I noticed what appeared to be spray paint cans on the tarp inside the hangar, but if the interior metal floor of TB's truck had been spraypainted (black), then it didn't make sense to me that LE would have found blood in the screwhole in the floor. Wouldn't it have been covered up, or at least mixed in with the black paint if it had been painted? Plus, from photos of the interior, it didn't look like it had been freshly painted to me. MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

And as for the stairwell the toolbox was dumped in...I saw an interesting video today on social media, one of those DM pages for discussing the trial. Today, one of the people that runs the page, took a field trip to the stairwell that was used as the toolbox drop off/pick up point. They videoed the location & did a walking tour to the building where MS was staying (MM's sister's building that is shown on the evidence tapes). It wasn't at all what I'd expected...I imagined it to be in the actual plaza building. IMO, It doesn't strike me as being a place that was found by fluke if you weren't a local...but perhaps it's coincidence he found such a perfect public drop off spot close to MS's location.

Shannon Martin &#8207;@ShannonMartinTV 4m4 minutes ago Toronto, Ontario
Crown: How did you get rid of the items? H: We went behind a strip mall. Found a stairwell, that leads to an electrical room. We left them.

Heard of DM arrest while driving. Listening to @680NEWS . Hagermen says they panicked. Dumped items in a stairwell. @AM900CHML

Shannon Martin &#8207;@ShannonMartinTV 1m1 minute ago Toronto, Ontario
This was not the agreed upon location. Hagerman chose the drop.

<modsnip>.

I don't think this is the correct location.

Susan ClairmontVerified account &#8207;@susanclairmont Apr 7
Remembers a pharmacy. Went behind strip mall to stairwell leading to electrical room. Stashed stuff there. #Bosma

Adam CarterVerified account &#8207;@AdamCarterCBC Apr 7
"I remember it being behind the Shoppers Medicentre ... it was like a pick up your prescription type place," Hagerman says. #TimBosma

The location shown on Facebook is just the closest Shoppers Drug Mart affiliate to 30 Speers Rd. It's a Shoppers Home Healthcare and they do NOT fill prescriptions there: they sell home care and mobility supplies.

MH didn't say they even got that close, just that they bailed to the side of the road immediately when they heard news reports.

I think Facebook got it wrong, again.

 

[deugirtni]

there is no way 12 cans of white spray paint would cover a black truck and door jams, hood, roof...plus the work involved in taping off all the windows etc for overspray..I can see maybe the interior floor of the truck, before putting back in any seats or carpet etc..might even be for some other piece of equipment..remember he asked Schlatman if the forklift was working? Was there maybe a piece of equipment used at the farm like the bobcat..to move the body into the eliminator? Would these two have the strength to do this without alot of dragging? Could it be to touch up the bobcat bucket?

Your post has just reminded me to mention something/as about something... Ok, so..... TB gets shot dead inside his truck.. then for sure at some point he was transferred into the incinerator. Surely that would have taken 2 men. Then TB's own truck is latched to the incinerator trailer, and each of the 2 men drive separate vehicles to the hangar to ignite it. So where is all the blood evidence of that? Surely they would have found SOME kind of blood evidence in the Yukon? Transfer from hands/clothes? Something?

 

[Inspector_North]

Your post has just reminded me to mention something/as about something... Ok, so..... TB gets shot dead inside his truck.. then for sure at some point he was transferred into the incinerator. Surely that would have taken 2 men. Then TB's own truck is latched to the incinerator trailer, and each of the 2 men drive separate vehicles to the hangar to ignite it. So where is all the blood evidence of that? Surely they would have found SOME kind of blood evidence in the Yukon? Transfer from hands/clothes? Something?

The Yukon has carpet missing. No one has mentioned or asked any witness if it was there prior to the 6th. I would have thought both SS and JV would know. It may be something they address with CN.

 

[Wollander77]

I know AP thinks they'll take the stand, but IMHO, neither of them will- for the exact reason billandrew said- they will surely get eviscerated!! I'm sure it would be the best day ever for the Crown if DM decided he could tell his side better than his snivelling, pathological lying friends. It's tempting to think that he'll insist on telling his story- the same as he decided to do his jail house interview all on his own.

DM has absolutely no respect for authority, so personally I can see him thinking his lawyers may not be getting it right, thus he needs to assist them all the time. What better way than taking matters into his own hands and taking the stand. Then, perhaps if DM does decide to add his two cents on the stand, and gives an Academy Award winning performance, MS may have to get up there as well. I'm hold off any bets until I see how the Crowns remaining witnesses do. MOO

<RSBM>

I believe the same. DM may be the more likely of the two of them to arrogantly defy his lawyers' advice, and testify anyway. But it's possible TD wouldn't urge MS to set the record straight, even if DM decided to rat him out before the jury.

I've a feeling TD will do whatever he can to prevent MS from taking the stand, especially if he can throw doubt on or manufacture his own interpretation of witness accounts regarding the events of week of May 6 (as a poster from a previous thread mentioned). If TD can secure MS a reduced sentence without ever getting him to confess to any part of the crime, I think he would. Perhaps that's part of the job of being a Defense lawyer? Same goes for RP, but sadly for him, DM seems to a bit of a loose cannon where reason is concerned. MOO. But who knows, they might still testify or surprise even the D. lawyers with their decision to do so.

 

[Errrr]

BD testified that MS had been using MM's phone for people to get in touch with him. And was also using BD's phone to text out.

Smich sometimes used Marlena's phone to contact him after May 10 when Millard was arrested, Daly says.
by Adam Carter 12:56 PM

molly hayes &#8207;@mollyhayes 29s30 seconds ago
From then on he'd use other people's phones. "It was clear to you he was trying to go underground," Pillay says. Yes.

Susan Clairmont &#8207;@susanclairmont 19s20 seconds ago
Smich used other people's phones. He was "going underground. He was preparing to flee," suggests Pillay. Daly agrees. Smich used Daly cell.

<modsnip>


Shannon Martin &#8207;@ShannonMartinTV 4m4 minutes ago Toronto, Ontario
Crown: How did you get rid of the items? H: We went behind a strip mall. Found a stairwell, that leads to an electrical room. We left them.

Heard of DM arrest while driving. Listening to @680NEWS . Hagermen says they panicked. Dumped items in a stairwell. @AM900CHML

Shannon Martin &#8207;@ShannonMartinTV 1m1 minute ago Toronto, Ontario
This was not the agreed upon location. Hagerman chose the drop.

I won't post the link to the video...as I'm not sure we're allowed to do that...but it's easy to find on FB if you search for DM's name, discuss the trial. It's on their newsfeed.

How would MS have known that AM was trying to contact him since this was completely unplanned? MH said AM was texting someone at the time he thought might be MS.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

there is no way 12 cans of white spray paint would cover a black truck and door jams, hood, roof...plus the work involved in taping off all the windows etc for overspray..I can see maybe the interior floor of the truck, before putting back in any seats or carpet etc..might even be for some other piece of equipment..remember he asked Schlatman if the forklift was working? Was there maybe a piece of equipment used at the farm like the bobcat..to move the body into the eliminator? Would these two have the strength to do this without alot of dragging? Could it be to touch up the bobcat bucket?

Well unless you have done it, ya never know. So far my answers from people (I know) that have rattle canned their trucks have been, ZJ 3 cans, Jeep TJ 5 cans (2 coats), pickup truck 10 cans, pickup quad cab 12-14 cans. Google search for pickup trucks, anywhere from 6 to 24 cans...depending on how many coats and how good ya want it to look. Seeing as DM was probably eventually going to get it painted red (if he pulled the crime off) TB's truck only needed to be white till he got it repainted. MOO
I didn't say it would look awesome with showroom looks! And I've painted alot of stuff on my TJ and my XJ sport, I know there is A LOT of prep and Masking. It is not something done in a few mins. Plus dry time..add about 24hrs to cure. Reason for me saying...DM ran out of time!

 

[billandrew]

I don't think this is the correct location.

Susan ClairmontVerified account &#8207;@susanclairmont Apr 7
Remembers a pharmacy. Went behind strip mall to stairwell leading to electrical room. Stashed stuff there. #Bosma

Adam CarterVerified account &#8207;@AdamCarterCBC Apr 7
"I remember it being behind the Shoppers Medicentre ... it was like a pick up your prescription type place," Hagerman says. #TimBosma

The location shown on Facebook is just the closest Shoppers Drug Mart affiliate to 30 Speers Rd. It's a Shoppers Home Healthcare and they do NOT fill prescriptions there: they sell home care and mobility supplies.

MH didn't say they even got that close, just that they bailed to the side of the road immediately when they heard news reports.

I think Facebook got it wrong, again.

On this particular issue I don't think the reporters' tweets communicate the actual testimony accurately. MH was trying to clarify that it was not a regular Shoppers Drug Mart store. He couldn't remember what those stores were called and he said "it was a Shoppers Medicentre or something". He just knew that it was a Shoppers, but it was not the regular pharmacy type store.

I was pretty sure he meant Home Health Care and when I got home from the trial I looked up all the Shoppers locations in Oakville. I wasn't surprised to find out that there is in fact a Home Health Care store in Oakville, and behind this store is an outdoor stairwell leading down to a door just like MH described.

He also stated that he remembered the location because he chose it. Whether he was being truthful or not is another matter.

 

[matou]

I'm surprised they chose a medical center since it would likely have cameras. JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

Like I said, the defense is confusing to me, and the less-than-truthful witnesses haven't helped. While I do agree that the gun most likely was in the tool box, what I don't agree with is the idea that MH actually knew that. When AM met up with MH, according to MH's testimony he claims AM told him, that DM wanted both the back pack and the tool box to go to MS. Whether we can believe that or not, is really up in the air I guess. The thing is though, I'm not sure it would have made any difference at all where the gun ended up (as in who's possession it was in) because it has already been established MS and DM were the two, and the only two, together, in Ancaster, in Tim's truck the night he was shot and killed, and then together again at the hangar, on video, when the incinerator was used to dispose of him. No matter where the gun ended up, the defense can't argue the rest of it. And even if DM is the one who fired that gun, it still doesn't matter to the Crown, according to their opening statement because it can't be proven who actually fired it and they were both there. I just can't see how MH doing the right thing would have helped MS in any way, but I think TD is spinning a lot of smoke and doing it very effectively.

Since I can't edit, I'm quoting myself to add this:

I've mentioned before I've never followed a court case this closely. That said, it's entirely possible I'm missing important things in how the defense works. It's also entirely possible I don't know enough about how the law works to explain how it would have worked differently (if it would have) had LE found the gun in DM's possession. Even if they did, would they be able to prove he fired it? What if they couldn't? Would that actually change the charges against MS? I honestly don't know. I just keep going back to the Crown's OS and it tends to keep me on track as far as what they know for a fact, what they were able to establish as fact via evidence, and/or who/what matters. It was known long before we ever knew about it, that LOTS of other people were involved in this nightmare after the fact and yet only 3 were ever charged with anything directly related to killing Tim Bosma.

 

[matou]

So is there any proof that the toolbox and bag were left where Hagerman said?

 

[brightii]

If anything I have learned since following this case, it's that human beings are capable of cruelty beyond my wildest imagination.

I need a good night's rest, a kind smile, and warm arms around me to remind me of the beautiful and tender fragility of life and of people.

Sweet dreams everyone.

All MOO.

 

[ABro]

So is there any proof that the toolbox and bag were left where Hagerman said?

The evidence is Hagerman's testimony given under oath. Brendan Daly also testified that the toolbox was picked up from a stairwell although he didn't specify where.

 

[Kamille]

So is there any proof that the toolbox and bag were left where Hagerman said?

I suppose only "Arthur" would be able to answer that at this point. And would that be "proof"? I believe BD stated that MS tried to get him to pick up the toolbox and he was unavailable so the task was eventually done by Arthur. And MS was angry about the fact that Arthur had told his mother about it and she had yelled at MS in Russian?

What I don't recall from any of the tweets was that there were two items to be picked up, a backpack and a toolbox. I also don't recall the backpack being found by LE and entered into evidence?

MOO