Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

[Ironworker736]

But MS received both the backpack and the toolbox. I don't understand the controversy here.

Good point. However, with chain of custody involved with both the toolbox and the backpack, and testimony that no one looked in either of them, how do we know what was in either item? These transactions need a timeline spreadsheet of their own...DM to MH and AM to MS to Arthur to MS to ???

 

[Ironworker736]

Yeah but does that make sense? They are going to steal things, and DM is going to make is buddy pay cash for the booty? DM is offering the guy free trees and the lawyer will have us believe that the guy would be paid in $50 credit towards a tree? Sorry, the math doesn't add up. Wouldn't the guy be PAID for future thefts, not have to pay DM for the honour of participating?

"future grabs" meant the next drug purchase, IMO.

First, they never stole any trees. Second, if DM was keeping everything he stole, that hangar would have been full to the rafters. Obviously items were sold for profit. Do you know all the items they stole in their time active? Some things may have been purchased (at severely discounted rates) by any of the crew. See it how you want to, but future grabs refers to thefts IMO

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 5s5 seconds ago
When DM tells him it pays "$50 or credit toward future grabs," Sachak says that's a reference to future thefts. Hagerman agrees. #Bosma

 

[puppyraiser]

Did Arthur pick up the items from the stairwell that MH and AS dropped off, then deliver to MS?

 

[Satchie]

Colin Butler ‏@ColinButlerCBC 26s26 seconds ago
Dungey suggests the toolbox also contained a pound of marijuana, but Daly says he doesn't remember that #Bosma

Alex Pierson ‏@AlexpiersonAMP 24s24 seconds ago
Dungey. It wasn't just a tool box. Smich also had a pound of pot. Daly doesn't remember. @AM900CHML #TimBosma

Dungey now suggesting that Arthur was only expecting drugs, and not the toolbox. Daly says he has no memory of that. Court heard Smich had about a pound of weed as well.
by Adam Carter 12:07 PM

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 48s48 seconds ago
Dungey suggests Smich only told him drugs were being dropped off. Daly disagrees.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 43s43 seconds ago
Dungey suggests Smich did say that--that he was surprised there was a toolbox there. Daly doesn't remember. #Bosma

Colin Butler ‏@ColinButlerCBC 33s33 seconds ago
Dungey suggests Smich was surprised by the toolbox that was dropped off by Millard's friends, but Daly doesn't remember that

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?304507-Bosma-Murder-Trial-04-06-16-Day-31&p=12453769#post12453769 and following posts

I think it was just Colin Butler mistakenly tweeting the pot was in the toolbox, when it was actually with the toolbox in the backpack.

 

[ABro]

billandrew, I'm curious to know your opinion of how MH's testimony, that was accompanied by tears and shakiness, as reported, came across to the jury? Do you think as a witness he will be seen as credible and sympathetic, or otherwise, by the jury?

Maybe that's a question that no one could answer, but I do wonder if those in attendance at trial can get any sense of what the jury is swayed by.

All MOO.

The jury are people just like you and me. They don't think with one mind and will likely have a range of opinions about the witness similar to what we see here.

 

[serenitynow123]

I agree. I was thinking maybe MS killed TB and that wasn't in the plan which made DM mad. I remember him saying in an article "How did it get to this point?" (not direct quote) It was a mission gone bad. So in panic they'd do what they do on TV and think they must get rid of the evidence. If DM was truly innocent, he wouldn't have done that. He would have called 911 and said he was test driving this truck and his buddy pulled a gun and shot the owner. IMO.

I think that killing the owner of the truck they planned to steal, who happened to be TB, was always part of the plan. DM and MS had escalated from burglary to armed robbery/murder.
I think what wasn't in the plan was that TB would be shot inside the truck. I'm speculating that the original plan involved forcibly confining or somehow incapacitating TB until they arrived at a prearranged kill spot and for TB to be dragged out and shot. I'm sure TB realized almost immediately that his survival was in jeopardy and that he fought like heck to escape, which is probably when the gun was discharged. MOO
So, who was driving the Yukon? CN?
I hope the jury sees fit to put them all away for a very long time.

 

[lovelycoconut]

So I know barely anything about drugs and how things work on "the street". From what I've read on the forums, some have expressed that the witnesses may be holding things back out of fear of someone else on the outside of this case coming after them. So I guess my question is, would DM ave been the big fish in this circle or would DM most likely have been buying the drugs from an even bigger fish? The weed has to be grown by someone to begin with right? Not sure how other drugs come into existence, I guess they are manufactured or smuggled into the country? (Sorry if this seems stupid, I really don't know anything about how the drug trade works)

Would LE have looked into that or no because it doesn't have anything to do with the murder? I guess my thought process is that DM would have had to contact his "dealers" somehow, so I'm wondering if LE would've tried to find out where the chain leads, in order to fry even bigger fish? This is all just speculation of course.And I guess they could still be investigating things in the background while this case is going on. I saw this article today about a drug/weapon bust in Oakville and it immediately made me think about Smich and if the bust was as a result of any info from this case!

http://www.chch.com/oakville-man-arrested-32-000-worth-illegal-drugs/

Funny how the mind works. It's like when you never notice any Ford cars on the road and then as soon as you buy one, it seems like everyone has a Ford on the road, and you start to notice them more!

 

[SnooperDuper]

:welcome: lovelycoconut!

 

[Massasauga Rattler]

I think that killing the owner of the truck they planned to steal, who happened to be TB, was always part of the plan. DM and MS had escalated from burglary to armed robbery/murder.
I think what wasn't in the plan was that TB would be shot inside the truck. I'm speculating that the original plan involved forcibly confining or somehow incapacitating TB until they arrived at a prearranged kill spot and for TB to be dragged out and shot. I'm sure TB realized almost immediately that his survival was in jeopardy and that he fought like heck to escape, which is probably when the gun was discharged. MOO
So, who was driving the Yukon? CN?
I hope the jury sees fit to put them all away for a very long time.

I think you may be right. I've also wondered if the truck had childproof locks on the doors that could be engaged from the driver side console. That could have been done by Millard, and when TB tried to get out of the truck and couldn't, he may have tried to break the window to get out. That may be when he was shot.

 

[serenitynow123]

It was during the final cross examination of BD by MS's lawyer on Wed am April 6, long series of questions goes for several pages. There's an easier way to look online at the tweets, but I don't have the link.



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?304507-Bosma-Murder-Trial-04-06-16-Day-31&p=12453773#post12453773

Try this link. All the trial tweets from Adam Carter, Molly Hayes, and Susan Clairmont
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...bQlyw__2QSDhYkGxMU/pubhtml?gid=0&single=false

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Wrong. The pot idea initially started with TD's assertions of it, which started the "DM is framing MS" train rolling IMO. MH and the backpack testimony came later and relates to a whole other event. Again MOO

Well ok, anything I was pertaining to in regards to the pot. I was referring to MH and the backpack and it smelled of weed. Not the defenses theories of the toolbox. Sorry if you thought I was talking about the toolbox having pot in it...in any of my posts. I guess I should have worded that sentence better.

Did the weed talk not initally come from BD and Crown? He testified to buying pot around the 7th (when DM's truck sped in, MS jumped out and ran past BD, then MM handed him his weed and told him to scram) Talked about the toolbox here as having a gun in it. Dungey crossed and suggested the weed in the toolbox. Or am I missing something?

From Adam Carter and Moodie's examination
Apr 5 2016 1:01 PM

Daly says Smich told him a gun was in the toolbox.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...ept-gun-in-toolbox-friend-testifies-1.3521414

 

[Sillybilly]

I'm not sure a judge in a separate proceeding has the jurisdiction to stack periods of parole eligibility on top of each other. My assumption is that a second or third conviction would simply start the 25 year clock on the conviction date, effectively making the sentences concurrent. I'm not certain though. I know it can be done in same transaction crimes, but not sure about separate offences.

Under the new Protecting Canadians by Ending Sentence Discounts for Multiple Murders Act (2011), a judge can impose consecutive sentences when the accused has previously been convicted of murder:

from:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/annualstatutes/2011_5/page-1.html

4. The Act is amended by adding the following after section 745.2:

Marginal note:Recommendation by jury — multiple murders

745.21 (1) Where a jury finds an accused guilty of murder and that accused has previously been convicted of murder, the judge presiding at the trial shall, before discharging the jury, put to them the following question:

You have found the accused guilty of murder. The law requires that I now pronounce a sentence of imprisonment for life against the accused. Do you wish to make any recommendation with respect to the period without eligibility for parole to be served for this murder consecutively to the period without eligibility for parole imposed for the previous murder? You are not required to make any recommendation, but if you do, your recommendation will be considered by me when I make my determination.

 

[Satchie]

lovelycoconut

So I know barely anything about drugs and how things work on "the street". From what I've read on the forums, some have expressed that the witnesses may be holding things back out of fear of someone else on the outside of this case coming after them. So I guess my question is, would DM ave been the big fish in this circle or would DM most likely have been buying the drugs from an even bigger fish? The weed has to be grown by someone to begin with right? Not sure how other drugs come into existence, I guess they are manufactured or smuggled into the country? (Sorry if this seems stupid, I really don't know anything about how the drug trade works)

Would LE have looked into that or no because it doesn't have anything to do with the murder? I guess my thought process is that DM would have had to contact his "dealers" somehow, so I'm wondering if LE would've tried to find out where the chain leads, in order to fry even bigger fish? This is all just speculation of course.And I guess they could still be investigating things in the background while this case is going on. I saw this article today about a drug/weapon bust in Oakville and it immediately made me think about Smich and if the bust was as a result of any info from this case!

http://www.chch.com/oakville-man-arr...illegal-drugs/

Funny how the mind works. It's like when you never notice any Ford cars on the road and then as soon as you buy one, it seems like everyone has a Ford on the road, and you start to notice them more!

I don't think DM was dealing drugs, I think he was just purchasing them for enjoying with his friends. He was a rich guy, and that's what rich guys do when they throw a party: they supply a free bar with every kind of liquor and a toolbox full of coke and other recreational drugs. It wins you a whole lot of very loyal friends.

He would have had a dealer he bought from, maybe the guy - I can't remember his name - who he asked LB2 to pass a message on to, that DM was hot and friend should stay away.

The way it works is, the higher you are on the supply chain, the more risk you take - both of going to jail for a substantial time, and of being cheated, robbed or hurt by other dealers and your customers. The people higher on the chain make more money, but they take a greater risk. They usually have some kind of weapons and numerous burner phones to keep in touch with various people above and below them on the chain.

 

[RandomName479]

CN was helping to hide the stolen truck and the remains of TB. I think that is where the big difference is in culpability between the gang members comes in? I don't think the hidden dvr was what resulted in her charges. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe you're right.....IMO hiding and disposing of the murder weapon is as bad as hiding the truck though (cuz we haven't heard any indication she hid remains IMO).....just wish I understood the legal system a little better.....

 

[Ontario Mom]

The question about why CN was charged and others weren't (specifically SS, AM & MH but also anyone else we haven't even heard about yet, if there are more) as accessory after the fact has been bugging a lot of us I think.

I think it just comes down to knowledge, and LE being able to prove who knew what, and when. I think with SS, AM and MH it certainly seems like they had to have known more details than they've let on, but it's also entirely possible they didn't actually have knowledge that DM and MS shot Tim and stole his truck. If you think about it, from their perspectives (DM's entourage), there was no legitimate reason for them to assume DM was connected to the missing guy on the news (even if they had already heard about it, despite some of them claiming they hadn't), because for all they knew, he was just a thief, not a killer. So at least at the beginning they probably didn't make the connection - until more details started coming out.

I don't believe for a moment though, that MH and AM didn't talk about what was in the tool box, or what was in the back pack, or that at least one if not both of them didn't actually look IN the backpack. It does sound reasonably truthful that they really didn't know DM killed a man and stole his truck (although we've heard AM did know in advance he was planning on stealing a truck) until they got together and started talking and piecing it together. MS acting all sketchy, DM meeting MH at 4am, sending the back pack off with one guy and the toolbox off with another, etc. It's possible MH really did think it was just drugs in the toolbox as he'd seen before. Until the pieces started falling into place, that is.

I think with the exhaustive investigation from LE on this case, if they were able to confirm/prove any of these guys had knowledge of what DM (and MS) did in Ancaster that night, and helped him in an attempt to avoid being caught or being prosecuted for it, they most definitely would have been charged the same way CN was.

100% speculation & moo

 

[RandomName479]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?304507-Bosma-Murder-Trial-04-06-16-Day-31&p=12453769#post12453769 and following posts

I think it was just Colin Butler mistakenly tweeting the pot was in the toolbox, when it was actually with the toolbox in the backpack.

I agree with you.....but it should be noted that the witness did not remember this as TD suggested....not saying there wasn't pot....but it definitely hasn't been proven just because TD suggested it.....MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

First, they never stole any trees. Second, if DM was keeping everything he stole, that hangar would have been full to the rafters. Obviously items were sold for profit. Do you know all the items they stole in their time active? Some things may have been purchased (at severely discounted rates) by any of the crew. See it how you want to, but future grabs refers to thefts IMO

If things were being sold for cash, should DM be offering a % of proceeds, not an arbitrary number $50, $100? I'd want a standard valuation, like $50 weed, that I could instantly understand, not something like $50 worth of Bobcat.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I don't think DM was dealing drugs, I think he was just purchasing them for enjoying with his friends. He was a rich guy, and that's what rich guys do when they throw a party: they supply a free bar with every kind of liquor and a toolbox full of coke and other recreational drugs. It wins you a whole lot of very loyal friends.

He would have had a dealer he bought from, maybe the guy - I can't remember his name - who he asked LB2 to pass a message on to, that DM was hot and friend should stay away.

The way it works is, the higher you are on the supply chain, the more risk you take - both of going to jail for a substantial time, and of being cheated, robbed or hurt by other dealers and your customers. The people higher on the chain make more money, but they take a greater risk. They usually have some kind of weapons and numerous burner phones to keep in touch with various people above and below them on the chain.

IMO, not even Tommy Chong (ironically a Facebook friend of one of the witnesses) would call 1 lb pot a "personal amount".

 

[Ironworker736]

Well ok, anything I was pertaining to in regards to the pot. I was referring to MH and the backpack and it smelled of weed. Not the defenses theories of the toolbox. Sorry if you thought I was talking about the toolbox having pot in it...in any of my posts. I guess I should have worded that sentence better.

Did the weed talk not initally come from BD and Crown? He testified to buying pot around the 7th (when DM's truck sped in, MS jumped out and ran past BD, then MM handed him his weed and told him to scram) Talked about the toolbox here as having a gun in it. Dungey crossed and suggested the weed in the toolbox. Or am I missing something?

From Adam Carter and Moodie's examination
Apr 5 2016 1:01 PM

Daly says Smich told him a gun was in the toolbox.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...ept-gun-in-toolbox-friend-testifies-1.3521414

Thanks for clarifying...I get what you were saying now. Sorry for my confusion.

 

[Errrr]

The jury are people just like you and me. They don't think with one mind and will likely have a range of opinions about the witness similar to what we see here.

OMG...I think being on a jury would drive me mad!