Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

[Ironworker736]

The question about why CN was charged and others weren't (specifically SS, AM & MH but also anyone else we haven't even heard about yet, if there are more) as accessory after the fact has been bugging a lot of us I think.

I think it just comes down to knowledge, and LE being able to prove who knew what, and when. I think with SS, AM and MH it certainly seems like they had to have known more details than they've let on, but it's also entirely possible they didn't actually have knowledge that DM and MS shot Tim and stole his truck. If you think about it, from their perspectives (DM's entourage), there was no legitimate reason for them to assume DM was connected to the missing guy on the news (even if they had already heard about it, despite some of them claiming they hadn't), because for all they knew, he was just a thief, not a killer. So at least at the beginning they probably didn't make the connection - until more details started coming out.

I don't believe for a moment though, that MH and AM didn't talk about what was in the tool box, or what was in the back pack, or that at least one if not both of them didn't actually look IN the backpack. It does sound reasonably truthful that they really didn't know DM killed a man and stole his truck (although we've heard AM did know in advance he was planning on stealing a truck) until they got together and started talking and piecing it together. MS acting all sketchy, DM meeting MH at 4am, sending the back pack off with one guy and the toolbox off with another, etc. It's possible MH really did think it was just drugs in the toolbox as he'd seen before. Until the pieces started falling into place, that is.

I think with the exhaustive investigation from LE on this case, if they were able to confirm/prove any of these guys had knowledge of what DM (and MS) did in Ancaster that night, and helped him in an attempt to avoid being caught or being prosecuted for it, they most definitely would have been charged the same way CN was.

100% speculation & moo

Let's not forget her DNA on gloves with TB's DNA...I hope I'm recalling this correctly

 

[Satchie]

IMO, not even Tommy Chong (ironically a Facebook friend of one of the witnesses) would call 1 lb pot a "personal amount".

No, I agree, but I think it was MS who was the dealer, on a very small scale. I think DM either bought the 1 lb outright for MS as payment for the truck mission, or arranged for someone to front him that amount so MS could move into a higher level on the dealing ladder.

 

[Ironworker736]

If things were being sold for cash, should DM be offering a % of proceeds, not an arbitrary number $50, $100? I'd want a standard valuation, like $50 weed, that I could instantly understand, not something like $50 worth of Bobcat.

Let me see if I can explain it with a hypothetical...say they go out and clean out a model home one night, a whole house-full of brand new furniture. This stuff would be picked over by the crew first, with any "credits" applied. Next, friends of the crew get dibs and what's left goes on a 1st come, 1st served basis. Say MH needed a couch and DM says he'll give him that $1500 couch that he wants $200 for, for $100 instead because he stood by himself on a country road for an hour last week. Strictly a hypothetical and all MOO

 

[Claroon]

I spent the day at the trial yesterday and was able to form my own views and opinions of MH's testimony. IMO he was only telling the truth to the extent that he had to, and the rest was vague answers and lies shrouded by his poor memory and weak emotional state:

• He held firm to his position that he never considered whether the toolbox contained anything other than drugs, even though any rational person in his situation would have been more suspicious.
• He claimed that the contents of the box never crossed his mind, even though he admitted to asking DM about it. He "just assumed it was drugs."
• He claimed that he and Michalski never discussed the contents of the toolbox and backpack, even though they met in a park to discuss what to do with those items.
• He cried that he was in shock over his friend's arrest, and kept reverting back to lines like "I made some stupid decisions" and "I just wanted nothing to do with the toolbox", and "I wanted to protect myself and my family."

IMO, MH is a weak individual who maintains a highly selective memory of the events of this case because he is unwilling to own up to his actions and just tell the truth. I find it awfully difficult to feel sorry for him. JMO.

Thank you for this first-hand observation. I see through tears too. Even if the lawyer seemed to be a bully, he my have cried over that alone, not remorse.

 

[Claroon]

I think they really liked the drugs, the extravagant parties with drugs, and probably access to girls too ( female escorts like LB ? and other female or even male party guests). Also there was the excitement of knowing someone who was a multimillionaire with his own mechanic, his own hangar, and farm, plus lots of toys. No doubt they also enjoyed the thrill of the late night " missions" , and probably shared in some stolen property from time to time. These people were around DM, obeying his commands because they were benefiting, and they thought they would not get caught because this gang was so successful. Crime does pay, for a time, until someone gets caught, or is indiscreet, and talks.

IMO

True, you do things when there is something in it for you. IMO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Let me see if I can explain it with a hypothetical...say they go out and clean out a model home one night, a whole house-full of brand new furniture. This stuff would be picked over by the crew first, with any "credits" applied. Next, friends of the crew get dibs and what's left goes on a 1st come, 1st served basis. Say MH needed a couch and DM says he'll give him that $1500 couch that he wants $200 for, for $100 instead because he stood by himself on a country road for an hour last week. Strictly a hypothetical and all MOO

But MH testified the thieving happened at random, with long periods in between...

First I'm going to ask you to help. Then I'm going to nickle-and-dime you into paying me for a split of the proceeds. And THEN I'm going to make it up to you maybe months in the future?

OTOH looking at how DM treated JV...

 

[Claroon]

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16/tim-bosmas-murder-may-have-been-thrill-kill-source

Me too, matou!

I posted this old article late last night, but am posting the link here again because it blows my mind what LE knew about DM and his criminal entourage, and how quickly they were putting the puzzle pieces together. It also mentions the tv show, The Following in context of this crime. After MH's testimony that comparison doesn't seem so far fetched to me now. AM's testimony should be very enlightening, IMO.

All MOO.

Thank you for the article. You're right, it did tell a lot. I especially liked, " 'Twisted would be the word,” an officer said.' "

 

[Ironworker736]

I don't think DM was dealing drugs, I think he was just purchasing them for enjoying with his friends. He was a rich guy, and that's what rich guys do when they throw a party: they supply a free bar with every kind of liquor and a toolbox full of coke and other recreational drugs. It wins you a whole lot of very loyal friends.

He would have had a dealer he bought from, maybe the guy - I can't remember his name - who he asked LB2 to pass a message on to, that DM was hot and friend should stay away.

The way it works is, the higher you are on the supply chain, the more risk you take - both of going to jail for a substantial time, and of being cheated, robbed or hurt by other dealers and your customers. The people higher on the chain make more money, but they take a greater risk. They usually have some kind of weapons and numerous burner phones to keep in touch with various people above and below them on the chain.

All due respect, I'm not sure where you stand on the whole premeditation thing, but in this post you basically argued against all the major points in the premeditation theories. You call DM a "rich guy" who foots the bill for all his buddies and you explain that higher-level drug dealers "usually have a weapon and burner phones". While you state that you don't believe he was a drug dealer, what would you classify it then? A drug broker? If he's moving a decent quantity from one dealer to another dealer, do you think this risk is taken at no charge? If so, why? Because he's a "nice guy"? If he was dealing, would your explanation above not somehow explain why he had a burner phone(s), at least 2 phones in his own name and a gun?
Just interested in your take on it after reading your post.

 

[Ironworker736]

But MH testified the thieving happened at random, with long periods in between...

First I'm going to ask you to help. Then I'm going to nickle-and-dime you into paying me for a split of the proceeds. And THEN I'm going to make it up to you maybe months in the future?

OTOH looking at how DM treated JV...

Maybe MH wasn't a part of his regular crew. Maybe he just needed an extra guy as a lookout that particular night. And as for the nickel and diming...he gave MH the choice and he seemed fine with it IMO

 

[billandrew]

billandrew, I'm curious to know your opinion of how MH's testimony, that was accompanied by tears and shakiness, as reported, came across to the jury? Do you think as a witness he will be seen as credible and sympathetic, or otherwise, by the jury?

Maybe that's a question that no one could answer, but I do wonder if those in attendance at trial can get any sense of what the jury is swayed by.

All MOO.

ABro gave the perfect answer to this. While I cannot say how the jury or anyone else will interpret MH's behaviour and testimony, these are some of the facts they will have to work with:

• His demeanour in the courtroom was sullen from the moment he walked in to the moment he walked out. He never made any attempt to pick himself up, and he had plenty of opportunity to gather himself over recesses, lunch breaks, etc. Each time he re-entered the courtroom, it was the same droopy character.
• He admitted that he lied to police and withheld critical information in his first three police interviews. In the transcripts of those interviews, he is recorded making statements like "I'm telling the truth, I'm telling you everything I know."
• He admitted to not disclosing past thefts involving Millard to the police, and when asked why, he stated something to the effect of "because they didn't ask. It never came up."

 

[SnooperDuper]

No, I agree, but I think it was MS who was the dealer, on a very small scale. I think DM either bought the 1 lb outright for MS as payment for the truck mission, or arranged for someone to front him that amount so MS could move into a higher level on the dealing ladder.

It would be better off to give MS cash, so he could leverage that into pot and build his own reputation. Getting pot from a new dealer on the side all of the sudden would deeply annoy MS's existing connection.

I think DM was the dealer because he had multiple residences under his full control. He didn't have to hide anything in the washer or fear raging women that might kick him out of the house.

If DM and AM smoked that 1 lb pot all day every day, it would take them months to consume it all. Not "personal use", IMO.

 

[Ironworker736]

ABro gave the perfect answer to this. While I cannot say how the jury or anyone else will interpret MH's behaviour and testimony, these are some of the facts they will have to work with:

• His demeanour in the courtroom was sullen from the moment he walked in to the moment he walked out. He never made any attempt to pick himself up, and he had plenty of opportunity to gather himself over recesses, lunch breaks, etc. Each time he re-entered the courtroom, it was the same droopy character.
• He admitted that he lied to police and withheld critical information in his first three police interviews. In the transcripts of those interviews, he is recorded making statements like "I'm telling the truth, I'm telling you everything I know."
• He admitted to not disclosing past thefts involving Millard to the police, and when asked why, he stated something to the effect of "because they didn't ask. It never came up."

Did it seem like an act of sorts, in your opinion?

 

[MsSherlock]

I see it this way. DM may very well be one of the youngest, most sophisticated and developed psychopaths in Canadian criminal history. IMO, no one who came into contact with DM was left unscathed: family, friends, lovers, employees, complete strangers. DM carefully plotted everything, right down to having buy in from the right person, so I'm suspecting that DM hatched his "not me" plan with CN on the night they were moving the truck. Over the next couple weeks, AM, MM and CN will experience something that they could never prepare themselves for. IMO, there's no reason to believe that the D teams will tone it down an octave or two. These guys can rest assured that DM and MS have each provided their lawyers with all the skeletons and if the cross with MH was any indication, these last 3 are going to find out what it really means to be running in the same circles as either of the accused. There's a lot of hot water bubbling.... MOO

 

[Ironworker736]

I see it this way. DM may very well be one of the youngest, most sophisticated and developed psychopaths in Canadian criminal history. IMO, no one who came into contact with DM was left unscathed: family, friends, lovers, employees, complete strangers. DM carefully plotted everything, right down to having buy in from the right person, so I'm suspecting that DM hatched his "not me" plan with CN on the night they were moving the truck. Over the next couple weeks, AM, MM and CN will experience something that they could never prepare themselves for. IMO, there's no reason to believe that the D teams will tone it down an octave or two. These guys can rest assured that DM and MS have each provided their lawyers with all the skeletons and if the cross with MH was any indication, these last 3 are going to find out what it really means to be running in the same circles as either of the accused. There's a lot of hot water bubbling.... MOO

<BBM>
Doesn't this contradict the apparently unorganized nature of TB's murder?

 

[Claroon]

*If* he was just dropping off his toolbox normally full of drugs and it contained nothing to do with the TB murder, why wouldn't he use his own phone to contact MH. I guess his phone could have died but that seems like a very convenient time for it to happen. I guess I would have expected a question from TD like "Was this the first time DM ever contacted you through CN's phone or was this a usual thing he did?"

I know he wasn't trying to hide on the 10th but if he was hiding when he dropped off the toolbox, that would show to the jury I would think that there was something definitely linked to the murder in that box.

I'd like to know how they prove it was DM texting MH and not CN. Maybe trying to protect CN? IMO Like HOW do you prove that?

 

[Claroon]

Has anyone had the thought wondering if the gang of thieves were waiting at the Brantford Bobcat site? I'm seeing Bobcat as a theme. IMO

Also in my random ink spots of the video looked like several people but told myself that wasn't the case. (Think me crazy but keep it to yourself pls).

 

[serenitynow123]

Maybe MH wasn't a part of his regular crew. Maybe he just needed an extra guy as a lookout that particular night. And as for the nickel and diming...he gave MH the choice and he seemed fine with it IMO

I agree. I think MH was definitely not a member of the inner circle,and was only occasionally called to participate in missions. His participation was such that he really had no idea of the specifics of the jobs he was scouting for. I think that was one of the primary reasons DM used MH to hide the toolbox, that and MH still lived with parents which reduced the possibility of DM's other friends and associates gaining access to the toolbox.
MH had to have known there was something far more incriminating than just drugs in that toolbox. MH was so concerned after talking with DM that he called two friends for advice and physically met with his best friend to talk it over before agreeing to take the toolbox. JMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

<BBM>
Doesn't this contradict the apparently unorganized nature of TB's murder?

No, TB's murder was highly organized. They went from pickup to ashes in hours. You don't make that kind of time bumbling around.

It's just that DM and MS made a number of big mistakes. They used the burner phone to call multiple sellers, and DM showed his tattoo. They texted regularly and backed up years' worth of texts and photos off their phones and onto DM's computers. They assumed Millard properties were a sanctuary LE couldn't or wouldn't cross into. They concentrated on (and failed at) being detected, but never accounted for being investigated.

I don't understand the argument that the fact that DM and MS weren't able to pull this crime off flawlessly somehow means that they didn't do it, because if they did it, they would have done absolutely everything perfectly.

 

[Ironworker736]

It would be better off to give MS cash, so he could leverage that into pot and build his own reputation. Getting pot from a new dealer on the side all of the sudden would deeply annoy MS's existing connection.

I think DM was the dealer because he had multiple residences under his full control. He didn't have to hide anything in the washer or fear raging women that might kick him out of the house.

If DM and AM smoked that 1 lb pot all day every day, it would take them months to consume it all. Not "personal use", IMO.

I agree that if there was a pound of pot, it probably wasn't personal. That doesn't mean it couldn't have been. In the Aaron Hernandez trial, it was testified that Aaron smoked up to an ounce a day. That seems extremely excessive, however, I have a close friend who smokes around 10-12 cigarette-size joints per day, due to medical reasons. Once a tolerance is built up, excessive consumption is possible. And I doubt either of the 2 guys I mentioned here are buying &#8539; ounce at a time. MOO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Sorry I haven't caught up on this thread yet but I just had a thought.

The night of the 9th when DM was trying to get ahold of MH, he used CN's phone not his own. We know he had a phone so why was he using hers all night to keep in touch with MH? I am surprised TD didn't question MH about this.

Pillay made a huge thing about how MS stopped using his phone at a certain point to try "go underground" and only used others. So that makes me a little surprised that TD didn't highlight yesterday that DM did the exact same thing. Do we know if DM used his own phone at all on the 10th?

bbm
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/04/06/tim-bosma-murder-trial-continues.html

molly hayes@mollyhayes
It had a small padlock on it. DM was in his blue Yukon. It was dark and windows were tinted but H says there was someone else in the car.
Apr 6, 22:22
molly hayes@mollyhayes
Fraser brings the toolbox over to Hagerman on the stand "Does that look familiar?" Fraser asks. "That's what he brought me," H says. #Bosma

CN was sitting beside him, I think. Then it would be not so far fetched to use her phone?