Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #9

[Inspector_North]

<rsbm>

I think the fact that TB initially went willingly with the accused is why it doesn't constitute abduction. Remember Sgt. Kavanagh's words that Tim "entered that vehicle of his own free will, but he was not allowed to leave"

When a child is told something to make them go willingly, it's still abduction. Not sure why this would be any different? They lied to him.

MOO

 

[swedie]

Just got in and haven't read any comments here today, just reporters tweets. All these legal arguments days...shouldn't most of this stuff been dealt with during pretrial? :waiting: The last of the witnesses for the Crown are going to be the ones who provide the icing on the cake. I think we can expect at least one full day of legal arguments for each new witness. Why DM's defense even bothers to try and have evidence thrown out at this point, IMHO is useless. I can only imagine DM is directing P & S. Too much evidence and testimony given thus far points a very straight finger right at DM. MS...I'm still not convinced he knew there was going to be a murder. So which defense attorney is creating all the hoopla needing another full day for legal arguments? Let me guess....DM's. :waiting: MOO.

 

[HackD]

Just got in and haven't read any comments here today, just reporters tweets. All these legal arguments days...shouldn't most of this stuff been dealt with during pretrial? :waiting: The last of the witnesses for the Crown are going to be the ones who provide the icing on the cake. I think we can expect at least one full day of legal arguments for each new witness. Why DM's defense even bothers to try and have evidence thrown out at this point, IMHO is useless. I can only imagine DM is directing P & S. Too much evidence and testimony given thus far points a very straight finger right at DM. MS...I'm still not convinced he knew there was going to be a murder. So which defense attorney is creating all the hoopla needing another full day for legal arguments? Let me guess....DM's. :waiting: MOO.

I thought this is what made this case fairly exceptional - going straight to trial, vs the usual route of pre-trial/preliminary hearing - as the Crown felt the preponderance of evidence was such that it was a slam-dunk?

Lack of pre-trial, doesn't stop objections/legal arguments from occurring during the actual trial itself.. part of the process.

IMHO.

 

[MsSherlock]

Agreed, and to take it one step further, if the loaded gun went along on the test drive, we're both parties aware?

I keep coming back to why DM chose MS to go along, rather than some of his other "crew members". He's known the others longer, probably trusts them more. Did he choose MS because he's a little more like himself, and more likely to go along with a plan such as this, or did he choose him because he feels he would have an easier time pinning it on MS given his past, should things go south? For me it's the latter. Many reporters have noted that DM isn't smirking nearly as often anymore, and is becoming more subdued. I wonder if it's the fact that the evidence against DM seems so monsterous in comparison to that against MS, combined with the fact that MS clearly has the superior representation between the two. There was one day where BD painted MS in a negative light, and Tony Dungey made us forget all about it with his cross exam. MOO.

I'm thinking that DM's demeanour has changed because he's being exposed as a cash strapped psychopath.Quite a fall from grace for the guy that just wanted to share his high flying lifestyle with his less affluent friends- mak'n it a reality for them. It's all becoming very real for him- the truth must be starting to sink in. He's going to go to jail. This isn't Kansas- he's not going to click his heals and go home. WM is dead and mommy can't do any more than she's already done- no one to get in there and say Little Dell would never do something like this. No more excuses- for the first time in his life he's being held accountable and there's absolutely no way out.

He's no longer that crazy, risk taking wealthy friend- he will soon be "a guy they knew". But, at the end of the day, he's implicated himself with his idiotic trail of text messages and I'm sure we'll be seeing more. Maybe after writing his book on "small living spaces" he can write something about the pitfalls of using cell phones & text messaging while setting up, committing and covering up crimes. MOO

 

[Webulls]

At the end of the day, it's up to the crown to prove it happened. We can all assume based on the blood/GSR/spent casing that he was forcibly confined, but if there are any other explanations for it, it creates reasonable doubt about what happened. Unless AM/MM/CN have any information that would prove force able confinement I'm not sure it can be proven without a reasonable doubt. Sucks, but it's the reality.

Again, it's only reasonable doubt if your bar is set to "I need to see a videotape of TB being killed" before you'll accept the fact that the man was held against his own will and murdered. There is no grey area here. Only those who want a videotape of TB being killed will utter "reasonable doubt".

 

[mozzagirl]

I'm thinking that DM's demeanour has changed because he's being exposed as a cash strapped psychopath.Quite a fall from grace for the guy that just wanted to share his high flying lifestyle with his less affluent friends- mak'n it a reality for them. It's all becoming very real for him- the truth must be starting to sink in. He's going to go to jail. This isn't Kansas- he's not going to click his heals and go home. WM is dead and mommy can't do any more than she's already done- no one to get in there and say Little Dell would never do something like this. No more excuses- for the first time in his life he's being held accountable and there's absolutely no way out.

He's no longer that crazy, risk taking wealthy friend- he will soon be "a guy they knew". But, at the end of the day, he's implicated himself with his idiotic trail of text messages and I'm sure we'll be seeing more. Maybe after writing his book on "small living spaces" he can write something about the pitfalls of using cell phones & text messaging while setting up, committing and covering up crimes. MOO

You said what I have been thinking better than I ever could have.

Life in general seemed like a game to him. Like he lived in his own alternate reality and he is finally at 29 years old, being brought back down to real life. Like you said, there is no way out of this for him now.

 

[napper505]

Is DM in solitary? If so how long?

interesting article below

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/04/1...olitary-unfit-for-trial-after-psychotic-break

Napper505

 

[Webulls]

<rsbm>

I think the fact that TB initially went willingly with the accused is why it doesn't constitute abduction. Remember Sgt. Kavanagh's words that Tim "entered that vehicle of his own free will, but he was not allowed to leave"

I'm pretty sure there's something in law called covenant. Meaning, that DM and MS came for a test drive of a truck TB was selling. TB got into the truck because he believed they were interested in buying his truck. Period. End of speculation. They did not arrive saying, "Yo, we're here to kill you and steal your truck, want to come along for a ride?". If they did, and he got into the truck, then you are correct. Otherwise, DM and MS broke the covenant of a test drive. Once they did that, it was forcible confinement by deception. Tim Bosma was never allowed to come home after all. Pretty sure he would have wanted to do so if given a choice.

I hope you can see the difference.

 

[leafs_fan93]

Again, it's only reasonable doubt if your bar is set to "I need to see a videotape of TB being killed" before you'll accept the fact that the man was held against his own will and murdered. There is no grey area here. Only those who want a videotape of TB being killed will utter "reasonable doubt".

There doesn't need to be video tape, but there needs to be more than we've been shown to this point IMO. I think it could come by way of MMs testimony. If she testifies that MS told her that TB was attempting to escape and DM shot him, or we drove him into the middle of nowhere and he tried to overtake the truck, so I shot him etc, that could be your forcible confinement right there. If she is seen by the jury as a reputable witness, her account of what MS told her could go a long way.

I still stand by, her testimony will make or break the case against MS. MOO

 

[Abitcountry]

When a child is told something to make them go willingly, it's still abduction. Not sure why this would be any different? They lied to him.

MOO

Thank you Inspector....my sentiments exactly!

 

[Abitcountry]

Is DM in solitary? If so how long?

interesting article below

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/04/1...olitary-unfit-for-trial-after-psychotic-break

Napper505

Doesn't play well with others.....:jail:

 

[Abitcountry]

You said what I have been thinking better than I ever could have.

Life in general seemed like a game to him. Like he lived in his own alternate reality and he is finally at 29 years old, being brought back down to real life. Like you said, there is no way out of this for him now.

Well there is his virtual reality......and then there is ours !

 

[Inspector_North]

There doesn't need to be video tape, but there needs to be more than we've been shown to this point IMO. I think it could come by way of MMs testimony. If she testifies that MS told her that TB was attempting to escape and DM shot him, or we drove him into the middle of nowhere and he tried to overtake the truck, so I shot him etc, that could be your forcible confinement right there. If she is seen by the jury as a reputable witness, her account of what MS told her could go a long way.

I still stand by, her testimony will make or break the case against MS. MOO

Still not enough, but I believe along with AM and CN they will make the case against both. There is no doubt in my mind that both are responsible. There still may be some key texts, especially those between DM and MS the evening of the 9th.

MOO

 

[Abitcountry]

I'm pretty sure there's something in law called covenant. Meaning, that DM and MS came for a test drive of a truck TB was selling. TB got into the truck because he believed they were interested in buying his truck. Period. End of speculation. They did not arrive saying, "Yo, we're here to kill you and steal your truck, want to come along for a ride?". If they did, and he got into the truck, then you are correct. Otherwise, DM and MS broke the covenant of a test drive. Once they did that, it was forcible confinement by deception. Tim Bosma was never allowed to come home after all. Pretty sure he would have wanted to do so if given a choice.

I hope you can see the difference.

Great response :cheer:

 

[MsSherlock]

Thank you Inspector....my sentiments exactly!

IMO, it becomes forcible confinement the minute they steal the truck with him in it. I've always maintained that with 2 on 1, they could have removed TB from the truck, knocked him out, done many things to get TB out of the truck if that was the plan- but it wasn't. Therefore, the "mission" was always to take the truck and owner, so IMHO, the minute they planned the truck theft was the minute they decided how to deal with the owner. 100% premeditation and 100% forceable confinement, even if it was only a few minutes before TB was murdered. More witnesses, more texts- I doubt there'll be any questions when it's time to reach a verdict. MOO

 

[deugirtni]

When a child is told something to make them go willingly, it's still abduction. Not sure why this would be any different? They lied to him.

MOO

Wouldn't this situation in effect be somewhat similar to say a good samaritan pulling over to allow 2 hitchhikers into his vehicle to give them a ride, and then the hitchhikers killing the good samaritan? So I wonder how those types of cases have been rules in the past? Can anyone find an example?

 

[deugirtni]

What is the max sentence CN could face for her charges?

I found this which suggests between 7 and 25 years before parole eligibility, and I believe 'life' is the max.

Other offences

Offences under the Criminal Code of Canada that carry a maximum penalty of life imprisonment in Canada (with a parole ineligibility period of between 7 years and 25 years) include treason, piracy, mutiny, hijacking, endangering the safety of an aircraft or an airport, endangering the safety of a ship or fixed platform, robbery, kidnapping, attempted murder, accessory after the fact to murder, conspiracy to commit murder, causing death by street racing, impaired driving causing death, causing death by criminal negligence, killing an unborn child in the act of birth, and aggravated sexual assault.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Canada

 

[deugirtni]

Don't forget making arrangements and making a trade of vehicles with Mr. V so that DM would have the appropriate towing capacity for the incinerator!... how many days ahead was that.. .3?

Also meant to mention the making of arrangements and trade of vehicle also with Mr. V so that DM would have the appropriate towing vehicle (the only one) for the trailer which would hold the truck on its way to get painted. I guess that only implies planning regarding the vehicle theft and not necessarily murder though.

 

[brightii]

I think what may happen with AM, MM and CN is add more confusion.

IMO, AM will testify as agreed for the Crown but with limitations and will try to put his good friend DM in a kind light and blame MS. IMO, MM will testify for the Crown and try to put MS in a good light and blame DM. CN will testify for the Crown only because she is compelled to and is charged herself, IMO, and since nothing she testifies to can be held against her in her own upcoming trial, IMO she will try at the same time to put DM in a good light and will blame MS. I could envision all of these three Crown witnesses behaving kind of like how SS and MH did when they testified, admitting only to what they absolutely had to in order to protect themselves, and their particular friend, and nothing more. They will, IMO, each try to minimize or excuse their own involvement and that of their friend.

If that were to happen, would we be any farther ahead than we are today? It will come down to who is most credible on the stand, IMO. I anticipate that with all various finger pointing from witnesses at whichever accused they want to blame while covering as best they can for the accused that they feel loyalty toward would just make the truth of what happened less clear than more, IMO.

The only exception may be MM, IMO. I truly don't expect to hear the real truth from either AM or CN, although I do hope for it. My opinion may be proved wrong in the coming days and weeks, and I would like nothing more than all three of these witnesses to be honest and credible, and to take responsibility for their own actions or inactions, and to accept the consequences for their candor, whatever those consequences may be.

All MOO.

 

[Stratocaster]

Kinda spooked by the video in the early morning hours of May 7th when the Yukon pulls into the apt building to pick up MM. JMO it seems that when they stop the Yukon MS needs to quickly talk to MM without being within earshot of DM (or is he giving he something she puts in her bag)..... And I've always wondered why not any charge of 'causing an indignity to a human body' were ever laid.