Brad Cooper: Appeal info

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Now that we are moving onto a new trial, there are lots of new questions that are raised:

1. Now that the defense has had more time to study the evidence from the computer that the prosecution withheld up until the trial, what new analysis has been done?
2. What are the details behind the evidence of the router in the Windows logs that were attempted to be admitted during rebuttal by the prosecution? What, if any, defense analysis will there be?
3. Is there any new evidence discovered, either incriminating or exculpatory, since the original trial?
4. Will the prosecution put forth as many character assassination witnesses like they did at the first trial?
5. Will it be streamed?
6. Will they black out the Google Map testimony like they did before?
7. Will the prosecution hide behind national security again to withhold evidence from the defense?
8. Will there be a change of venue?

So many other questions...
 
Agreed, he has no money to support himself, and without a work permit he would need to return to Canada to earn a living. Which makes him a flight risk.



Who is to say that they didn't offer this to him before? But if he is innocent (as I believe based on the evidence of the first trial), then there is no way he would take a plea deal.

The question of flight risk is interesting. Is it out of the question that everyone acknowledge that he will return to Canada pending another trial? That is, if he's released on bail in NC, does he have to remain in NC, or would he be free to travel in the US without being considered "in flight"? If he is free to travel in the US without being considered "in flight", what difference would it really make if he was free to travel to Canada without actually being considered as "fleeing"?

I find this statement to be unusual, as one would hope that everyone accepts that children should have a relationship with their father. I fail to see how it benefits children to permanently disrupt that relationship. I'm also curious whether the children have maintained a relationship with their father's extended family.

"Nancy Cooper's sister and brother-in-law now have custody of the Coopers' two daughters and are raising them near Vancouver, British Columbia. Rentz said the family hopes the new trial doesn't mean a new custody fight over the girls."

http://www.wral.com/nc-supreme-court-won-t-stand-in-way-of-brad-cooper-retrial/13325541/
 
You mean Brad's and Nancy's girls, who have been without a father as well as a mother thanks to a wrongful prosecution.

I think about them alot, and how much they have suffered because the police focused on convicting Brad rather than trying to find the killer.

NO, I meant NANCY'S girls who are now in the custody of Krista Lister (Nancy's twin) and family. They HAVE a father now....a loving, caring father....one they NEVER had with Cooper as their father.
 
NO, I meant NANCY'S girls who are now in the custody of Krista Lister (Nancy's twin) and family. They HAVE a father now....a loving, caring father....one they NEVER had with Cooper as their father.

BRAD's girls are NOT with their father, they are with their AUNT and UNCLE! Brad is, according to the evidence, a loving and caring father.

And I find it outrageous that anyone would not consider what the wrongful prosecution of their father will do to the future development of the children. Look at the case of Michael Morton, a man wrongfully convicted of murdering his wife. He had a son of 3 when the murder happened, and that son didn't know that his father was actually innocent of the crime. He grew up thinking his father murdered his mother, only to discover 25 years later that it was an overzealous DA that prosecuted on circumstantial evidence for lack of another suspect.

The crowd carrying the pitchforks against Brad really need to consider the children. Luckily, I think Mr. Rentz understands this, as he seems to have been very measured in the way that he has approached the innocence or guilt of Brad. I only hope that Krista and her husband are the same.
 
I find this statement to be unusual, as one would hope that everyone accepts that children should have a relationship with their father. I fail to see how it benefits children to permanently disrupt that relationship. I'm also curious whether the children have maintained a relationship with their father's extended family.

"Nancy Cooper's sister and brother-in-law now have custody of the Coopers' two daughters and are raising them near Vancouver, British Columbia. Rentz said the family hopes the new trial doesn't mean a new custody fight over the girls."

http://www.wral.com/nc-supreme-court-won-t-stand-in-way-of-brad-cooper-retrial/13325541/

I was just rewatching the Dateline NBC report, and based on that, Brad doesn't have any contact with the girls following the conviction. Their Aunt Krista said in the interview that she told the girls that their father is traveling and doesn't have any access to anything. Of course this may have changed over the years.

I believe that with the new trial, he will want to change that and again have regular contact. He is, legally, now innocent until proven guilty. I know I would.

I find it interesting that the Dateline report shows the girls in situations which Brad was against. Specifically, a couple of the conditions of the temporary custody were that the girls would not be exposed to dogs and dog hair due to allergies, and that they would not be exposed to the media. The report shows the girls with a dog (reading a book about scratching dogs, no less), and quite a bit of filming of the girls for the Dateline NBC report. I'm not sure how that changed with the permanent custody order, however I suspect that he will want to revisit this.
 
Doesn't matter what he wants. The best interest of the children is all that matters and that's what any family court will consider. The children have had no contact with him for over 5 years. The children are in a happy and stable home with family they adore and with primary caregivers they identify as their parents. They are loved, nurtured, cared-for, and protected. That's what anyone would want. The children are the most innocent of victims and a family court will endeavor to protect their rights and interests.

They are not cattle, not property, and when Brad was convicted he was, in purely legal terms, considered deceased prior to his wife. That's now in limbo with the overturn of the conviction, but there is no reason to bring chaos and upset to the girls lives and certainly not at this point.

It's never about the adults' rights -- it's what is in the best interest for the children. And the best interest for the children is to be shielded and protected at all times.
 
A bit out of sequence, but...

Doesn't matter what he wants. The best interest of the children is all that matters and that's what any family court will consider.
...

It's never about the adults' rights -- it's what is in the best interest for the children. And the best interest for the children is to be shielded and protected at all times.

Legally, that is not true. Parental rights are absolutely considered when determining custody. While it is true that the best interest of the children is a consideration, the father does not give up his rights as a parent when his spouse dies.

The children have had no contact with him for over 5 years. The children are in a happy and stable home with family they adore and with primary caregivers they identify as their parents. They are loved, nurtured, cared-for, and protected. That's what anyone would want. The children are the most innocent of victims and a family court will endeavor to protect their rights and interests.

I will not deny that they are in a happy and stable home, and that they are loved, nurtured, cared-for, and protected. However, I would argue that it is detrimental for the children to identify their aunt and uncle as their parents. They are NOT their parents. And this has the potential to do the children incredible harm in the long run as they learn about the truth about what the police and the justice system did to their father, particularly if they are held back from contacting their father by their current caretakers.

They are not cattle, not property, and when Brad was convicted he was, in purely legal terms, considered deceased prior to his wife. That's now in limbo with the overturn of the conviction, but there is no reason to bring chaos and upset to the girls lives and certainly not at this point.

I'm not sure about the whole "legally deceased when convicted" argument. Can you please elaborate on the specific legal recognition here? However, I would agree that if the DA chooses to retry (which we all believe he will) then they should go back to the status as it was before the conviction.
 
I was told (by a family law attorney) that when a parent is convicted of murder of the other parent, legally the convicted person is then considered to be "deceased" 1 day before the murdered parent, in the eyes of the family court. That's my source of that legal factoid.

The minor children in this case (now 9 and 7) have no need to know anything about "the U.S. justice system" and what people think of it (or don't think of it). Brad's criminal legal case is separate from the family civil case no matter how much anyone would like to make it seem as though they are the same thing. The welfare of the children is the determining factor in family law, whether anyone agrees with that or not. And that issue won't be determined in this retrial, regardless.

the father does not give up his rights as a parent when his spouse dies.

No, when/if a father is convicted of murder of the other parent.
 
Hello everyone,

Lots of interesting comments since the SC refused the State's appeal. I can't say I disagree with the SC, even though they didn't give reasons!

The only recent comments I take real issue with are two of oenophile's statements in post 544, the first which says Brad was "wrongfully prosecuted" and the second which says, "The crowd carrying the pitchforks against Brad really need to consider the children."

First, Brad was not wrongfully prosecuted, even with his conviction being overturned. The most that can be said is his technical defence was disallowed, and the court has said it should have been allowed in. The technical defence was still argued in the closing, and while it impact was lessened, I don't think anyone can really say what the jury would have done had Jay Ward been allowed to testify. Even a juror wouldn't be able to say with any certainty, since cross-examination is as important as direct testimony, and I do think that Mr. Ward's "expert's" testimony would have looked very shoddy upon cross-examination. That's just my opinion.

On oenophile stating the "crowd carrying pitchforks" who should "consider the children", I guess that comment is directed at everyone who thinks Brad killed his wife. That comment is offensive because it implies that those who think Brad did kill his wife are irrational idiots on a witchhunt just looking to see someone convicted, and them thinking so somehow negates their concern for the two girls.

Quite the contrary, my belief that Brad did do it is a reasoned conclusion, something I and many others on this board have backed up reasonably and intelligently over hundreds, even thousands, of posts. When you consider there is no direct evidence in this case about who did kill Nancy, the circumstantial evidence against Brad is very strong. When you look at his attempted technical defence, it appears to be a complicated mess designed to imply a conspiracy of law enforcement to convict, something that I just can't accept as reasonably possible in this case. I'm not wanting to open this debate again, as it has appeared on this forum many times over. Each poster can make their own determination. Some of the "Brad is Innocent" crowd have made some good posts defending their position as well. None of us will ever be jurors in the retrial, and thankfully so.

To address the bail issue. If Brad's re-attendance at trial can be assured, I think he should be let out. The first time around, his family was unwilling to spend a lot of money to secure his release for a year or so. It will be interesting if that changes. Certainly Brad doesn't have any assets left, but I wonder even with reduced bonding, would his parents pay $100,000 to let him out? That's his only hope, even assuming the courts would let him out knowing he'd want to go to Canada to live with family and presumably also see his daughters. I would think the US courts would be reluctant to let a foreign citizen leave the country while their capital murder case awaits. Once he's past US borders he would have the ability to illegally flee Canada to a non-extradition treaty country. So for that reason, if he's released I think he would be required to stay in the US.

Now onto contact with his daughters. We don't know what has happened since the Dateline episode was produced. Has Brad had phone contact? Have the parents said anything different from "he's travelling" yet?

I'd defer to what experts have to say, but I wonder how helpful or hurtful it would be to those girls to be exposed to Brad when he is likely still going to be spending the rest of his life in prison.

Also there is now a jurisdictional issue. A Canadian court is now likely to exercise jurisdiction over the custody issues for the girls, as they are children of Canadian citizens and thus have automatic dual citizenship, and are on Canadian soil, unless an express prior arrangement was made. The girls are fully settled into their environment, and disruptions to that could cause more harm than good. Assuming it would be allowed, would it be in the girls' best interests should Brad be released in the US for a period of time, that they go live with him? I doubt that's the right thing for them.
 
The only recent comments I take real issue with are two of oenophile's statements in post 544, the first which says Brad was "wrongfully prosecuted" and the second which says, "The crowd carrying the pitchforks against Brad really need to consider the children."

Thanks, Calgary123, for your insightful post. I will agree that my two statements, that brad was wrongfully prosecuted and that the crowd carrying the pitchforks against Brad really need to consider the children, are based on my opinion that he is innocent. Particularly the first one. And that this is a reasoned position based on the evidence presented. They are a bit hyperbolic in nature mostly to counter the hyperbolic statements of his guilt. The fact is that no one here knows whether he is innocent or guilty. We can only evaluate the evidence presented. I cannot, in good consciousness, come to the conclusion that his is guilty based on the totality of evidence, and I cannot fathom how anyone else can.

That being said, I agree that some people have stated valid reasoning as to their conclusions. But that isn't necessarily true of many people here. There are several active people in this forum that a) concluded that he was guilty long before the trial, as evidenced in the pre-trial threads; and b) have repeated falsities that have been refuted on a factual basis at trial as reasoning for their conclusions. On the latter point, I am not talking of the Google Map search, but rather the other false claims that were made in support of a guilty verdict. When I speak of a witchhunt, I speak of those that are quick to be judge, jury and executioner while ignoring the facts brought out at trial. To give a rather public example of what I'm talking about, check out the exchange between Nancy Grace and Dan Abrams on the success of the appeal. In this video, Nancy flat out lied, repeatedly, about the facts of the trial in support of her conclusion that Brad Did It. People here are replicating exactly what Nancy Grace did. Again, I do think there is a case that can be made as to his guilt, however it mostly centers around the Google search. Without that, there really is no case.

On the issue of the children, taking a position with regard to their welfare on the basis of his assumed guilt is not only unfair to him, it is extremely hurtful to the children. Like it or not, he is now innocent again until proven guilty. And there is a clear, rational foundation for believing he is absolutely innocent of this crime. IF he is innocent, then the callous attitude toward the relationship between the father and his daughters is not only harmful to all of them, but also has some pretty significant public policy implications with regard to family law.

Agreed also that there will be some jurisdictional issues regarding Canada vs. NC. I am not sure how the Canadian courts will look at this. But, until the second trial (assuming there is one), I think it is reasonable to maintain the custody situation as it was before the trial. That is, permanent custody to the Lister's, with regular contact via phone to Brad. This seems like what is in the best interest of the children for now. If he is found guilty with a fair trial, then I think he will lose them forever. If he is found not guilty, then he should regain full custodial rights over the children if it is his desire to do so.

In conclusion, what I take most offense to is the idea that children can be taken away from their father permanently on the basis of accusations alone. There is no evidence that he is a bad father. At this point, he is innocent until proven guilty of the crime he is accused of perpetrating, and there is solid foundation for the conclusion that he is innocent. If he is indeed innocent, then how is justice served and the children's welfare sustained by permanently taking them away from their father?
 
Again, out of sequence...

I was told (by a family law attorney) that when a parent is convicted of murder of the other parent, legally the convicted person is then considered to be "deceased" 1 day before the murdered parent, in the eyes of the family court. That's my source of that legal factoid.
...
No, when/if a father is convicted of murder of the other parent.

Was just reading the NC legal guidance. I didn't see anything about the convicted person being considered "deceased" in terms of custody. However, you are 100% correct that when a parent is convicted of murdering a spouse, they lose their parental rights.

One interesting question: the law doesn't say what happens if that conviction is overturned.


The minor children in this case (now 9 and 7) have no need to know anything about "the U.S. justice system" and what people think of it (or don't think of it). Brad's criminal legal case is separate from the family civil case no matter how much anyone would like to make it seem as though they are the same thing. The welfare of the children is the determining factor in family law, whether anyone agrees with that or not. And that issue won't be determined in this retrial, regardless.

Just to clarify, I was speaking about the U.S. justice system in relation to the children as they get older. Children are often a lot smarter than we give them credit for. They will figure out during their teenage years, at the latest, what happened to their father. And as they get older, I would expect that they will probably be reading what we are writing now on this forum. All of this has an impact on the development of a child.

Also, the welfare of children is A determining factor, but not THE determining factor. States cannot simply decide to take children away from their parents. There is a process, and the parent has a significant legal right to determine how and where their child is raised. The criteria for removing a child from the custodial care of a parent is pretty high. This case is relatively unique and, if he is acquitted, will probably set some new precedents if their is a significant conflict between Brad and the Listers/Rentzs.
 
Now onto contact with his daughters. We don't know what has happened since the Dateline episode was produced. Has Brad had phone contact? Have the parents said anything different from "he's travelling" yet?

Snipped lots of good Calgary123 stuff down to this one question.

Brad has no contact with the girls and hasn't for years. As I recall the girls were loathe to talk to him during the times they did have video and phone chats back in 2008 and then he was arrested and at some point contact was ended. My understanding is his parents do have contact and have visited them, just as the Rentz' said they hoped during their comments after BC's verdict. No idea on what the girls know, if anything at all, about BC's whereabouts or even if they ever inquire about him. I remember at the time of the Dateline interview the family said they would let the girls bring up any questions whenever they were ready and the family would address things as the girls inquired but they would not push them. I'm sure they would also consult with a child psychologist, as was done before, so that whatever they say would be age appropriate, etc. The family has been consistent in saying they want to do what is best for the kids, protect them appropriately, and not cause them any further pain or distress, to the extent they can.
 
Again, out of sequence...

Just to clarify, I was speaking about the U.S. justice system in relation to the children as they get older. Children are often a lot smarter than we give them credit for. They will figure out during their teenage years, at the latest, what happened to their father. And as they get older, I would expect that they will probably be reading what we are writing now on this forum. All of this has an impact on the development of a child.

The youngest will probably not remember Brad as she was barely 2 yrs old at the time of her mother's murder and sadly, she probably won't remember her mommy either.

I imagine their primary concern will be about their mother -- what happened to her, why she disappeared from their lives, what does death mean, who hurt mommy and why, certainly for the eldest girl who will remember her mom. Brad wasn't around all that much during portions of the girls' early years. He worked full time, trained for his Ironman competitions, did some travel, went to graduate school after work for 2 years. The girls spent the vast majority of their time with their mom from 2006 to NC's death. Frankly I'd be surprised if Brad is a topic at all; if I were betting I'd say rarely or not at all.
 
The youngest will probably not remember Brad as she was barely 2 yrs old at the time of her mother's murder and sadly, she probably won't remember her mommy either.

I imagine their primary concern will be about their mother -- what happened to her, why she disappeared from their lives, what does death mean, who hurt mommy and why, certainly for the eldest girl who will remember her mom. Brad wasn't around all that much during portions of the girls' early years. He worked full time, trained for his Ironman competitions, did some travel, went to graduate school after work for 2 years. The girls spent the vast majority of their time with their mom from 2006 to NC's death. Frankly I'd be surprised if Brad is a topic at all; if I were betting I'd say rarely or not at all.

This isn't consistent with the affidavits for the custody hearings and the testimony at the trial. While it is clear that Nancy was the primary caregiver, Brad was absolutely a part of their lives. All the rest is simply speculation based on the assumption that Brad was a bad father (which the evidence doesn't support).
 
Brad has no contact with the girls and hasn't for years. As I recall the girls were loathe to talk to him during the times they did have video and phone chats back in 2008 and then he was arrested and at some point contact was ended.

Source? This is a very egregious claim, that "the girls were loathe to talk with him", and requires some evidence.

If the girls have not had contact with him for years, that is a real shame for both the girls and Brad.
 
The family has been consistent in saying they want to do what is best for the kids, protect them appropriately, and not cause them any further pain or distress, to the extent they can.

I disagree with this, and the evidence does not support this. The family tore the kids away from Brad before he was arrested and officially accused of the crime. If you read how it was done, with Bella crying in his arms as the police dragged the girls away from him, it was completely uncalled for. The family has taken ownership over the kids, because they believe that their father killed their daughter/sister. It is driven largely by a prejudice against Brad more than concern over the children. I believe, without doubt, that the family loves the children and will do anything to protect them. However, their conviction that Brad is responsible for the death of their daughter/sister is impacting their determination to shield the children from him.
 
Thanks for your measured response oenophile, I suppose we'll see what happens next, and then we can debate and discuss that.

The only article I've read as to the state's current intentions is the WRAL article where the DA is quoted to say, Brad "will probably be retried". He says they need to find a court room and a judge... don't they have those?

Sure resources are always tight, but one would expect a stronger statement than that in a first degree murder case. If anything, the lack of the availability of a court room and judge would only help Brad's success in arguing for lower barriers to release pending a retrial, so the statement by itself is unusual.

To give a rather public example of what I'm talking about, check out the exchange between Nancy Grace and Dan Abrams on the success of the appeal. Nancy flat out lied, repeatedly, about the facts of the trial in support of her conclusion that Brad Did It.

I had to just repeat this part of your post. Talk about a strawman! Nancy Grace is not even honest about the circumstances regarding the murder of her own boyfriend/fiance, and has developed a lucrative career relaying false "facts" about that murder as her raison d'etre. I would agree she is someone with the "pitchfork" mentality, but she's just in it for the money. She is plain awful, and not to be trusted or believed. I'm sure there are some who think Brad did it just because, but I haven't seen a lot of that in the threads on this sub-forum.
 
Brad was away from the home for some chunks of time due to his work/training/school schedule. That is not in dispute and was a part of the original custody case back in 2008.

But that is neither here nor there. Brad wasn't a bad father until such time as he murdered their mother (IMHO). Yes, I consider that being a very bad parent, at a minimum.

Until the question of his bail is settled the rest is an unknown. I personally don't think he'll be allowed to leave this country under any bail agreement. And that's if he could raise whatever monies were needed for bail, and that's assuming he is even granted bail in the first place.
 
Source? This is a very dramatic (not the right word but can't seem to find the right one) claim, that "the girls were loathe to talk with him", and requires some evidence.

If the girls have not had contact with him for years, that is a real shame for both the girls and Brad.

Evidence submitted in the custody hearing in Oct 2008.
 
I disagree with this, and the evidence does not support this. The family tore the kids away from Brad before he was arrested and officially accused of the crime. If you read how it was done, with Bella crying in his arms as the police dragged the girls away from him, it was completely uncalled for. The family has taken ownership over the kids, because they believe that their father killed their daughter/sister. It is driven largely by a prejudice against Brad more than concern over the children. I believe, without doubt, that the family loves the children and will do anything to protect them. However, their conviction that Brad is responsible for the death of their daughter/sister is impacting their determination to shield the children from him.

The documented evidence is the family was concerned about Brad being a danger to himself and the children due to information they had about his mental state and alleged suicidal thoughts at some prior time along with him being a part of a murder investigation. On top of that the family does believe he murdered their loved one and protection of the children is the de facto goal, as it was since this whole horrible mess started.

I don't blame them one bit. Would anyone want to see another Josh Powell situation?

But again, it's now 2014, Brad's future remains completely uncertain, he could well be in prison the rest of his life from a 2nd conviction.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
125
Guests online
3,284
Total visitors
3,409

Forum statistics

Threads
603,362
Messages
18,155,371
Members
231,712
Latest member
eddie_van
Back
Top